Sex (Yet another split topic)

[McQ]

Sex. Love it. Can't have enough of it. Is there anything more than that? I mean, come on!  

And if wringing out the Rhesus is a sin, I'm going straight to you-know-where!

[Big Mac]

I think it's safe to say almost everyone here has had a rape fantasy at one point or another. I've had several but I do not act them out. I can distiguish fantasy (safe in my head) and reality. I've also thought about killing some people out of pure rage but realize that it is a moment of anger and let it pass. Though genetically (to my still primitive brain, as we all possess) it is not as satisfying.

[advancedatheist]

Pedophilia is only dangerous if they act on it.

But the "biblical world view," which perpetuates ignorance from the childhood of the race, encourages adult men to marry adolescent girls. We still see this practice in many traditional societies:

The Bride Price

[Tom62]

my 2 cts.

There is nothing sinful about the human body. Sex is an normal human urge that can be very enjoyable whether you do it alone or with a partner.  There is also nothing wrong with having sexual fantasies, even if they are kinky ones. Acting out your fantasies without mutual concent is however not o.k.

[JNTB]

I love the "unpure thoughts" argument in which our thoughts are sinful. We are not in control of our thoughts, only our actions. Hang with me on this one ... if we were in control of our thoughts, wouldn't we have to think about the subject we wanted to control? Wouldn't we have to systematically examine every thought and determine its purity and then discard the unpure thoughts and maintain the pure thoughts? Wouldn't that require us to think about the subject, which itself is unpure. So, logically, it is absolutely impossible to avoid impure thought.

As far as most fantasies go, they mostly remain fantasies, sexually-oriented or not. If they became reality, then they really wouldn't be fantasies but plans.

[Asmodean Prime]

well observed, JNTB

something to think about.  But we do all get impure thoughts, which assault us without warning.  I think the danger is when we dwell on them, because that's when we are likely to translate thought into action.

I think, from a biblical point of view, which I believe, and as is often said in Christian circles "temptation is not sin, it only becomes sin when acted upon."  The bible says that even Jesus was tempted, in every way that we are.  I don't know what that means exactly.  But I do believe that temptation (impure thoughts) are not quite the same thing as acting upon said thoughts.  After all, most of us I suppose are tempted to pocket a pile of cash when we see it, but if we resist, that is a good thing.  

Battling temptation is something that affects us all, not just Christians.  Sometimes we have to act for the good of society at large, and not just feed our own selfish desires.

[Court]

So, onlyme, with that ideology in mind, do you think masturbating and sex are acceptable practices?

[Asmodean Prime]

So, onlyme, with that ideology in mind, do you think masturbating and sex are acceptable practices?

I think masturbating is something to be avoided is possible, because it sees another person as a purely sexual object.  Is that really a good thing?  I think not.  We should try to treat people with the respect that they are due, whether in thought or action.

As for sex, yes, I think it is a good thing within the confines of marriage.  People may disagree.  I myself find it hard, but I see this as the highest ideal, which I admit is hard to live up to.

[Big Mac]

How do you know that all masturbation is just purely sexual in EVERY aspect? Some people may enjoy the idea of being close to their imaginary partner or various other reasons (one of them may wear the Burqa or something). Have you peered into every person's head who is jerkin the kerkin and seen what they fantasize about?

Don't answer that question, it was hopefully rhetorical.

[advancedatheist]

I think masturbating is something to be avoided is possible, because it sees another person as a purely sexual object.  Is that really a good thing?  

Hey, if women masturbated while fantasizing about me as a sex object, I wouldn't mind in the least! I'd much prefer that over my history where women have ignored me sexually. (Women walk around me because they can't walk through me, but otherwise they have treated me as effectively invisible.)

[Court]

So, onlyme, with that ideology in mind, do you think masturbating and sex are acceptable practices?

I think masturbating is something to be avoided is possible, because it sees another person as a purely sexual object.  

So, you don't care that it's perfectly natural and beneficial? Masturbation can help relieve stress, reduce menstrual cramps, stimulate the immune systems, reduce spontaneous erections and wet dreams for males, and reduce the chances of getting prostate cancer. Most of this was found by googling "benefits of masturbation" (several sources concur on the benefits), but the prostate cancer source is here. Plus, it makes sex better because you are more aware of your own body and what works for you.
And, pray tell, how does masturbating see someone as a purely sexual object (although I don't exactly see a problem with this. We are animals, after all. Mating is biological function.)? It has nothing to do with other people. That's the point.

As for sex, yes, I think it is a good thing within the confines of marriage.  People may disagree.  I myself find it hard, but I see this as the highest ideal, which I admit is hard to live up to.

I do disagree, but I used to think the same thing. Then I realized sex is not that much different from eating. It's something that's healthy, normal, necessary, and should be done with a smidgen of caution (ie-I shouldn't eat bad food, I should use birth control). It's okay to act like a normal human being.

[advancedatheist]

In addition to considering masturbation a good thing in some contexts, I also approve of jealousy. If a woman felt jealous because she thought that I had shifted my affections from her to another woman, I would genuinely appreciate that. Jealousy, like masturbatory sexual fantasies, would indicate that I have value to a woman.

[Big Mac]

Women are the devil! They have devil holes!!! Their vaginas attract bears!!! Having sex with women should only be to procreate to further our numbers!!! So says Jebus!! After all, this coming from a guy who hung out with hookers! He never touched them!

www.sexisforfags.com

[Jassman]

All of the interesting discussions happen when I walk away for awhile...  

Anyway, there have been a lot of interesting replies so we will soon see if there's really anything I can add to the conversation. Hopefully, this post doesn't end up too long-winded.

No, I'm saying that, generally, what people tend to masturbate, or fantasise over, they tend to translate into real life. For example, raping women, or paedophilia, or whatever.

Whatever the mind focuses on for prolonged periods of time, they then tend to translate into real life scenarios.

Whoa, slow down onlyme. Maybe you act out every little thought that slides past your consciousness but for me, the vast majority of my thoughts go without any physical action to substantiate them. I very strongly believe that no thought in itself is wrong. It doesn't matter how twisted or vile the thought is. If it is unaccompanied by an action, it is harmless. Many of the actions these thoughts could help bring about may be very wrong. But that doesn't affect the innocence of the thoughts alone.  

The concept of "thought crime" is one of the most erroneous and ridiculous things I have ever heard. People are afraid to admit some of the thoughts that they conjure up. I'd be lying if I said that I liked or was even indifferent about all of the thoughts that have occurred in my mind in the past. But I don't have a problem with them and see no inherent "wrong" that I committed.

Everyone has these thoughts. Everyone on occasion will have a random thought that causes the immediate second thought "How the hell did that get into my head?"

Personally I think that everyone should control his/her emotions for the benefit of society at large.

So you're basically saying that we have to restrain themselves from our natural animalistic instincts? Thoughts alone, without actions, should even be actively repressed?

Can you imagine a scenario where a person would committ an act without there existing a preceding thought to initiate the act?  They work together not independently.

Not every action requires active conscious thought. Many small things people do throughout the day are not thought about. I constantly crack my knuckles. Usually, I don't actually think about what I'm doing. I know, it isn't the type of complex action you are probably alluding to, but it is an action nonetheless and should be mentioned.

I should have been more specific in stating that dwelling on the thought of adultery is the evil, not the inital thought, in that regard you are correct.  I can see a beautiful woman on the street and think "wow, she's hot" and that's not a sin.  What is sin is to dwell on that thought and begin to fantasize about it.

I don't think either are wrong. The initial thought and the longer fantasy are both completely harmless to the woman on the street (she isn't even aware it's going on).

I love the "unpure thoughts" argument in which our thoughts are sinful. We are not in control of our thoughts, only our actions. Hang with me on this one ... if we were in control of our thoughts, wouldn't we have to think about the subject we wanted to control? Wouldn't we have to systematically examine every thought and determine its purity and then discard the unpure thoughts and maintain the pure thoughts? Wouldn't that require us to think about the subject, which itself is unpure. So, logically, it is absolutely impossible to avoid impure thought.

This is a very interesting point. You can't stop a thought because that requires thinking about the thought that you want to quit thinking about. Ah... the human mind is a very fascinating subject, isn't it?

I think masturbating is something to be avoided is possible, because it sees another person as a purely sexual object.  Is that really a good thing?  I think not.  We should try to treat people with the respect that they are due, whether in thought or action.

It's not a good thing. It's not a bad thing either. It simply doesn't matter either way. Restraining sexual thoughts in the mind out of respect? That is something I can't grasp. Your brain is the only place where you are truly free to do whatever you want to whatever you want. It is the only place where there aren't consequences, because there aren't actions. I will not subject the parts of my mind that will never become physical actions to the "quality control" system that many people feel are necessary. Sexual thoughts, any thoughts for that matter, don't cause harm to anyone. No one ends up feeling "disrespected". Hell, I'm sure a lot of people would be flattered that they were the primary subject of someone's fantasy.

So, you don't care that it's perfectly natural and beneficial? Masturbation can help relieve stress, reduce menstrual cramps, stimulate the immune systems, reduce spontaneous erections and wet dreams for males, and reduce the chances of getting prostate cancer. Most of this was found by googling "benefits of masturbation" (several sources concur on the benefits), but the prostate cancer source is here. Plus, it makes sex better because you are more aware of your own body and what works for you.

Those are all excellent arguments for masturbation. From a health standpoint alone, masturbation is a very good thing.

EDIT:

Hopefully, this post doesn't end up too long-winded.

Shit, it was extremely long-winded... And I made it even longer by quoting my own post within itself (has that ever been done before?).

[iplaw]

I don't think either are wrong. The initial thought and the longer fantasy are both completely harmless to the woman on the street (she isn't even aware it's going on).

That wasn't my point.  YOU are aware of it and it's the YOU that I am concerned with not the other person.  I am not speaking of you directly just in the figurative sense in the story.  Sin begins and ends in the heart not the action was my point.