Old Testament Pfft, Jesus is the MAN!

[Stevil]

Does the bible say that Jesus says the following?

- Remove parts of your body that make you commit sins
- If you're being sued, give them what they ask
- If you are asked to do something, do twice as much
- Give to those that ask of you
- Let anyone that asks borrow from you
- Be perfect
- Do not concern yourself with your life, because God will do it just as he takes care of the birds and the wildflowers
- Do not think for it will not add to your stature

I'd like to see a Christian that obeys those gems of wisdom, I'm absolutely positive that AD and Bruce do not.

With regards to
- Divorce makes you guilty of adultery, except if done by the woman's unfaithfulness

So Jesus was portrayed as sexist?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

So, it's better to spend all your time worrying and fretting about things?  That's great advice.  It will sure make the shrinks rich. Jesus presented a paradigm for life that had a specific end - the believer/disciple could live his/her life without the constant stress of worrying about where the next meal would come from.  If you can show me specifically that this promise fails, I'll listen to you.  In my experience it works.   

Dispite the bad advise the bible tells us that Jesus said, we ought to take care of ourselves as if there is no god.
We ought to be very concerned with regards to the necessities of live, food, water, shelter.
Living just for today almost guarantees no future, we ought to plant crops, and build farms so that we can feed ourselves.

Food and our future ought to be top priority, not worship of some mythical invisible creature that is made of nothing and is/remains unobservable, as if it does not and has never existed.

Nobody said that we shouldn't plan for the future.  The good advice that Jesus gave tells us not to be overcome by fear, anxiety and worry as we face the challenges of today and tomorrow.  It gives hope that things will be OK, even if we face evil. 

[Ecurb Noselrub]

If your God concept has to squeeze itself behind such a disingenuous answer your God concept is worthless.

It's not worthless to me.  And I see nothing disingenuous about pointing out that we tiny humans cannot claim absolute knowledge about the origins of the universe and what may lay outside it. My concept of God is pretty expansive, actually. 

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Does the bible say that Jesus says the following?

- Remove parts of your body that make you commit sins
- If you're being sued, give them what they ask
- If you are asked to do something, do twice as much
- Give to those that ask of you
- Let anyone that asks borrow from you
- Be perfect
- Do not concern yourself with your life, because God will do it just as he takes care of the birds and the wildflowers
- Do not think for it will not add to your stature

I'd like to see a Christian that obeys those gems of wisdom, I'm absolutely positive that AD and Bruce do not.

With regards to
- Divorce makes you guilty of adultery, except if done by the woman's unfaithfulness

So Jesus was portrayed as sexist?

We are moving well outside the scope of the OP.  But where you quote "Do not concern yourself" and "do not think," the meaning and force of those passages are, as previously discussed, not to "worry" or "have anxiety."  Yes, I think those are gems of wisdom, and I attempt to put that advice into practice, with varying degrees of success.

I will comment on your first quote above, as it comes up from time to time.  It comes from Matthew 5:27-30.  Jesus is commenting on the Old Testament injunction against adultery, and I believe he was pointing out the futility of attempting to comply with all the requirements of the Torah by one's own effort.  This is why, as you move through Matthew, Jesus one by one disassembles the requirements of the Old Testament and eventually replaces them with the New Covenant of faith in him.  He removes the dietary restrictions, the Sabbath restrictions, the priestly/sacrificial restrictions, and finally replaces the whole thing.  And he moves the consideration for "righteousness" from outward compliance to inward change.  So Matthew can be read as a description of the progression from the Old to the New Covenant. 

Once the New Covenant is instituted, righteousness (right standing with God) becomes a matter of faith, not outward compliance with the Torah.  So the Christian operating under that covenant has no need to remove body parts, as his/her standing with God has been secured by grace through faith.  Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament and replaced it.  That's my interpretation of it, anyway.

And no, I don't think Jesus was sexist. He clearly engaged women as full human beings and elevated their status.

[Tank]

If your God concept has to squeeze itself behind such a disingenuous answer your God concept is worthless.

It's not worthless to me.  And I see nothing disingenuous about pointing out that we tiny humans cannot claim absolute knowledge about the origins of the universe and what may lay outside it. My concept of God is pretty expansive, actually. 

But you do!

[Gawen]

We are moving well outside the scope of the OP. 

No we're not. The scope was broadened to include the rest of the unethical Sermon on the Mount - Stevil just picked out a portion of it; wherein Stevil has shown that God has failed Christians in the food supply portion. Taking into account that the multitude Jesus fed the fish and loaves to weren't even Christians,  since then, millions of Christians and non-Christians have starved to death or gone without. The perfect god has failed the imperfect creation once again, thereby rendering the perfect god less than perfect and not good.

Nobody said that we shouldn't plan for the future.

These must be those verses you conveniently overlook, or if not, suit to your own taste.

"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow will worry about its own things, Sufficient for the day is its own trouble."
"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on..."
All of the Bibles I have say Jesus said this. Take a good look at the bold, in red text. Notice "take no thought for your life" is the first instruction and then backed up with food, clothes and your body.
Taking no thought for your life for tomorrow does not mean you plan for the future.
Jesus says what Bruce wants him to say, and there is no other alternative.

So, it's better to spend all your time worrying and fretting about things?  That's great advice.  It will sure make the shrinks rich. Jesus presented a paradigm for life that had a specific end - the believer/disciple could live his/her life without the constant stress of worrying about where the next meal would come from.  If you can show me specifically that this promise fails, I'll listen to you.  In my experience it works.

Then you are the only person I know that doesn't worry...doesn't give a frack. Anxiety is a part of everyday life. We all worry. We all get anxious. And a little anxiety is natural, normal and even helpful.

Worry, or anxiety can act as a natural alarm system to an immediate threat. It can motivate you to foresee problems and figure out solutions. Fear and anxiety can produce the adrenaline boost one needs to confront real danger or a difficult situation. It can help you be more productive and face the big challenges in your life. It is necessary in humans for survival and adaptation, and it is not in the least harmful or dangerous.
Jesus wasn't natural so I reckon worry or anxiety should not be natural to him. However, Jesus' ministry was apocalyptic and imminent and he would have you to become less than human to gain salvation.

It's not worthless to me.  And I see nothing disingenuous about pointing out that we tiny humans cannot claim absolute knowledge about the origins of the universe and what may lay outside it. My concept of God is pretty expansive, actually.

What the origins of the universe and what may lay outside it has to do with this discussion is beyond me. As for you concept of God being expansive, that much is evident. You take much of what is said in the Bible and expand on it. If there is such an afterlife as you believe it to be, without following Jesus, adding this, subtracting that, the one of your two choices of afterlife may very well surprise you when you land in it.

I will comment on your first quote above, as it comes up from time to time.  It comes from Matthew 5:27-30.  Jesus is commenting on the Old Testament injunction against adultery, and I believe he was pointing out the futility of attempting to comply with all the requirements of the Torah by one's own effort.  This is why, as you move through Matthew, Jesus one by one disassembles the requirements of the Old Testament and eventually replaces them with the New Covenant of faith in him.  He removes the dietary restrictions, the Sabbath restrictions, the priestly/sacrificial restrictions, and finally replaces the whole thing.  And he moves the consideration for "righteousness" from outward compliance to inward change.  So Matthew can be read as a description of the progression from the Old to the New Covenant.

Wrong. I explain all that here:
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8055.0

[Gawen]

I have never seen a Christian explain the unethical precepts of the Sermon on the Mount. I have never seen a Christian ATTEMPT all the precepts to achieve salvation. Notice how Bruce and AD and most, if not all Christians, on any DB you've ever been in sidestep some of the issues:
- Remove parts of your body that make you commit sin
- If you're being sued, give them what they ask plus more
- If you are asked to do something, do twice as much
- Give to those that ask of you
- Let anyone that asks borrow from you
- Be perfect

These are only six ways out of a plethora to gain salvation, yet no Christian I have ever heard of can do all of these. Nor do I hear them explain why Jesus orders such things and why humans cannot do them.

I shall focus on just one of the 6 above.
Matthew 5:42: Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Since there is no distinction of who does the asking, it is not just a charitable contribution after all. Therefore, I ask Bruce for 2% of his income. I remind him of Matt 6:19 and – Luke 18:22.

[DeterminedJuliet]

If your God concept has to squeeze itself behind such a disingenuous answer your God concept is worthless.

It's not worthless to me.  And I see nothing disingenuous about pointing out that we tiny humans cannot claim absolute knowledge about the origins of the universe and what may lay outside it. My concept of God is pretty expansive, actually. 

But you do!

Exactly. Religious gives the illusion of humility, when, really, it's a means to claim you KNOW things you couldn't possibly know.

[Gawen]

Exactly. Religious gives the illusion of humility, when, really, it's a means to claim you KNOW things you couldn't possibly know.

It's amazing isn't it? Self deceived woowoo...

[Stevil]

I ask Bruce for 2% of his income. I remind him of Matt 6:19 and – Luke 18:22.

Well, I'd like to ask for the other 98%

And certainly Jesus was very wise when he said
- If you are asked to do something, do twice as much
- Give to those that ask of you

As well Jesus himself advised you to not worry for tomorrow, not worry about food, water or clothes, nor to worship money.
If you prioritise on the kingdom of God, then Jesus (god) will provide it for you (somewhere in the world).

Should I PM you my bank details?

[history_geek]

If your God concept has to squeeze itself behind such a disingenuous answer your God concept is worthless.

It's not worthless to me.  And I see nothing disingenuous about pointing out that we tiny humans cannot claim absolute knowledge about the origins of the universe and what may lay outside it. My concept of God is pretty expansive, actually. 

But you do!

Exactly. Religious gives the illusion of humility, when, really, it's a means to claim you KNOW things you couldn't possibly know.

After all, it is this assumption of knowledge that has lead to the formation of the, oh so correct, Intelligent Design and Creationism.



This image is perhaps a bit overused, but only because it is so right....

And it's not just knowledge that Christians (and other religions, to be fair) assume, but absolute knowledge given to them by the "god" him/her/itself, in the form of a book or two (or a collection of books that were chosen by vote *cough cough*).

[Ecurb Noselrub]

If your God concept has to squeeze itself behind such a disingenuous answer your God concept is worthless.

It's not worthless to me.  And I see nothing disingenuous about pointing out that we tiny humans cannot claim absolute knowledge about the origins of the universe and what may lay outside it. My concept of God is pretty expansive, actually. 

But you do!

No, I do not. I am not claiming to have absolute knowledge. To believe something is not to claim absolute knowledge.  I could be wrong.  I believe in God but do not claim that I have absolute knowledge of his existence. Why is that difficult for you to accept?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Since there is no distinction of who does the asking, it is not just a charitable contribution after all. Therefore, I ask Bruce for 2% of his income. I remind him of Matt 6:19 and – Luke 18:22.

I don't have 2% left after my family, creditors and others who have asked before you take their share. If you need a little help, put your mailing address here and I'll mail you a check for what I can.  Again, most of my money has already been claimed by others. But I know times are tough, so I'll try to help you out.

[Sandra Craft]

With all due respect, none of us actually knows what the truth is about God. Some believe, some do not. No one can claim absolute knowledge.

But so many do, and most of them are religious.  In fact, I'm not sure I've ever heard a non-religious person claim absolute knowledge of anything but people claiming a god absolutely does exist and that they know what it can do and wants is commonplace.

As well Jesus himself advised you to not worry for tomorrow, not worry about food, water or clothes, nor to worship money.

I honestly don't remember anymore, was Jesus supposed to be the one who believed the world would end in his lifetime, or was it his followers who thought the world would end in theirs?  That's the only way to make sense of "don't prepare for the future" advice -- if you don't expect there to be a future.

Personally, I think "don't fret about the future" advice is excellent, since worrying about things over which you have no control is just a waste of emotion -- not that most of us can completely avoid doing that but it's still a good idea to try.

But "don't fret" and "don't prepare" are two different things and Jesus is often made to seem as if he is suggesting both.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Nobody said that we shouldn't plan for the future.

These must be those verses you conveniently overlook, or if not, suit to your own taste.

"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow will worry about its own things, Sufficient for the day is its own trouble."
"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on..."
All of the Bibles I have say Jesus said this. Take a good look at the bold, in red text. Notice "take no thought for your life" is the first instruction and then backed up with food, clothes and your body.
Taking no thought for your life for tomorrow does not mean you plan for the future.
Jesus says what Bruce wants him to say, and there is no other alternative.

The New King James Version says "worry" for each of these verses, including the one you have in red.  This is the proper translation of the Greek merimno, or its various forms.  So the Greek does not say "take no thought" in the sense of not planning, but in the sense of not being anxious.

Anxiety and worry is a useless emotion.  It saps you of your strength when you meet difficulty.  It has a paralyzing effect on a person, and can lead to depression and worse.  Jesus is giving advice on avoiding that pitfall, and it's advice that has worked well for me.  Like everything else, I'm not perfect, but lessening the anxiety and worry in one's life is only positive, in my opinion.