Little Kids and Cussing on TV

[Siz]

I actually just watched this episode last night.

I love swearing and I do it often. I can't believe people are offended by this episode and are throwing fits. It's just another case where I want people to pick their fucking battles. It was one episode. It was bleeped out. It wasn't gratuitous. Obviously it served its purpose for a sitcom plot...a plot which I'm sure many parents can relate to.

The final scene where Lily swears is CUTE (in my opinion). Her dad was crying because he always cries at weddings. She knew swearing would make him laugh so she did it. She didn't swear because she knew the meaning of what she was saying and was trying to be offensive. She only did it because she thought her dad was sad and needed to laugh. That's sweet.

That's nice in the contextual bubble of a sitcom, but in reality when the child goes to school and considers profanity a means to humour and/or consolation we have a socially inappropriate learned use of language.

I'm not lambasting this use of 'offensive' language in this show - it worked in its own context. But the secondary argument about common use of profanity by minors is a separate issue.

The question of offence does not bother me, it is the stigma attached to use of language that is most damaging - to the swearer, not the swearee.

[Crow]

"What's a Twat"

[pytheas]

if the kid is under 4 the funny word may be inconvenient, embarasing or cute - they replicate, mime and reflect what the caretaker-parent shines. If you dont want that occuring, dont swear yourself, but also grab a presciption for anxiolytics because your control-freaking verges to OCD symptoms, chill out, smoke a spliff, relax

if the kid goes to school, you just sit, watch and learn. Instruct it so that it learns the meaning and all-important associations that convey the actual communication in emotions.  if the school is rough they will come back not only knowing swear words but also knowing their use and effect- the meaning doesnt matter at that stage.

between adults, I have differentially appreciated a lot of swearing inside witty critisism and biting sarcasm that doubled the shocking effect from all corners. I have also identified imbeciles/morons that do not see any light at all and the shock response of the few swear words is all that there is in their attempt for communication. Also i have seen swearing as inappropriate or discordant when the general vibe and sensation of what is communicated has no call for profanity.

everything goes, havent and probably wont see the tv show

[Asmodean]

How can a word - any word - be shocking? It's a combination of sounds, that gives something a sound value.

So someone calls your dear old grandma a bitch. To you, the assessment is incorrect, but how does it carry enough weight to create sufficient impact on your or her life to be shockingly incorrect?

And if it is indeed correct, well, what's the problem?

[pytheas]

How can a word - any word - be shocking?

to the rest of your argument, especially if its correct, it is hurtfull. No one likes the mirror when its depth of  reflection mirrors the wrinkles and zits of behaviour.
the absurd or not so reasonable lies when the fuck/bitch etc characterisation is obviously not a fitting description.
there the reason is word connotations

fornication or whoring , fuck or sex, make love, all describe coitus but carry also a judgement
eskimoes have 17(?) words for snow, each describing a further attribute of the varieties not familiar outside the poles

hence words do carry associated meaning so much so that they reach symbolism

[Asmodean]

No one likes the mirror when its depth of  reflection mirrors the wrinkles and zits of behaviour.

"No-one" likes a mirror that makes them look fat either.

I, however, do not think that I have any right to be offended if what someone says about me - no matter the wording - is correct, and no cause to be offended if it is not.

[pytheas]

I, however, do not think that I have any right to be offended if what someone says about me - no matter the wording - is correct, and no cause to be offended if it is not.

sure

the issue with right is what you do when offended. Also a little scepticism as to the level of conscious control in the generation of offense responses. we reason upon the emotion and subdue it at best. If it doesnt arise, how very desirable, but does it happen via a conscious block?


Edit: Quotes fixed - Tank

[Asmodean]

Oh, it is quite possible to offend me. However, it will take more than curses or bringing up aspects of my life or personality - be they true or false. Name-calling goes in one ear and out the other unless you are one of the tiny handful of people whos opinion of me I respect and/or value, in which case an examination of causes is warranted.

I'm not an insecure person, and I do know myself, my strengths, weaknesses and capabilities well enough... Maybe that's why I'm so laid back when it comes to words thrown at me.

In some cases, I may decide to take offence, but that would normally be the result of someone spreading flase information about me around in a way that negatively affects me somehow.

So to answer the question, no, I do not supress being offended. Quite the opposite, in fact. I decide whether or not I should be and act accordingly.

[pytheas]

crystal, dear forumite

the ballgame is in knowing thyself
the practical attributes of wisdom
not to linger on co-precipitates

there is an oppinion= we should respect, befriend or value all people, at least the more (the merrier). I haven't managed, though I gave it a shot. In times of distress I devalued my standards to include a wider more bland entourage. The operation resulted in me offending myself.

They do say that although everyone was permitted in the garden, a newly arrived member was advised and guided to meet and bond with alike minded people
I am out searching my tiny percentage, very hard to gather in a physical perspiring form. I believe there are places that differentially congregate more certain types.
I feel I belong in the society circle the movie Simon(2004) -dutch production- is played in. Beautiful subconsiously humanist moral movie- I wont spoil the plot just in case.

[Asmodean]

I have not seen that one, so you have probably just saved The Asmo from a night of boredom 

[Davin]

If I may interject, one more angle of this argument not yet expressed is the stigma attached to use of certain words in society at large. That is reason enough to curtail children's use of profanity.

I refrain from using 'bad' language in front of my son because I don't want him using the same words. Not because it is itself offensive to other people (though, of course it is), but because he will be viewed much more negatively by the people around him. So when I say "don't use that word", and he replies "why not?", my answer is "because people hearing you use that word will think you're not very clever". That is the fact of it. The explanation is accepted - and heeded with positive understanding.

I find great pleasure in swearing around friends (and other people who already know I'm not very clever), but I have learned the situations where it might be to my detriment (at a work meeting for example) to use bad language. My children, at their age, are incapable of making such a judgement so I therefore consider it important to disallow profanity in any situation.

I think the bolded is a bad characterisation of those who use profanity and should not be taught or supported by anyone.

[Siz]

If I may interject, one more angle of this argument not yet expressed is the stigma attached to use of certain words in society at large. That is reason enough to curtail children's use of profanity.

I refrain from using 'bad' language in front of my son because I don't want him using the same words. Not because it is itself offensive to other people (though, of course it is), but because he will be viewed much more negatively by the people around him. So when I say "don't use that word", and he replies "why not?", my answer is "because people hearing you use that word will think you're not very clever". That is the fact of it. The explanation is accepted - and heeded with positive understanding.

I find great pleasure in swearing around friends (and other people who already know I'm not very clever), but I have learned the situations where it might be to my detriment (at a work meeting for example) to use bad language. My children, at their age, are incapable of making such a judgement so I therefore consider it important to disallow profanity in any situation.

I think the bolded is a bad characterisation of those who use profanity and should not be taught or supported by anyone.

I absolutely agree with you. It is a very real and widespread prejudice though whether we like it or not.

[philosoraptor]

This, however works in favor of of my point though, that it's the meaning that matters and not the sounds/letters. Which makes it ridiculous to allow, "I think you're a horrible person and I have very low regard for you" when "you miserable fucking cunt" is not. Essentially the same meaning, however because of people's unreasonable bias towards words, one is "acceptable" and the other is "offensive".

If I'm following you correctly Davin, I think you and I are pretty much on the same page with this.  Tank, you argue that "you miserable fucking cunt" carries an emotional charge that the other phrase does not, but of course it's emotionally charged because we've been taught to find it so.  Cunt isn't going to be offensive to someone who doesn't speak English the same as Fotze isn't offensive to people who don't speak German.  The words themselves need context to be offensive-it's not a power the individual words hold on their own.  Although what I do find interesting is that many words are offensive across different languages and cultures-Fotze IS offensive in German like cunt is in English, and the words are equivalent.  But then between British and American English, fanny goes from meaning vagina to meaning ass.  Maybe Tank or someone else could elaborate on how offensive fanny might be perceived in a culture that uses British English, but I don't imagine most Americans would be incensed if someone said "ouch, I fell on my fanny and boy it hurt!".

There are so many nuances to language-even something "offensive" could sometimes be seen positively.  Think about it-"he's a stupid motherfucker" carries a whole different connotation than "he's a badass motherfucker".  One of those reads as an insult, the other a compliment, and yet the same supposedly offensive word was used in both.  Then of course there is prick/dick/asshole vs cunt.  All of these words are considered offensive, but I'd argue that cunt is more offensive to most people than prick/dick and yet both of those are words for genitalia.  Asshole is maybe more neutral because everyone has one, I guess.  I'll have to see if I can't dig up the article, but I remember reading a few years ago that "cunt" became offensive because it was a way of further marginalizing women, by making their sex a dirty, nasty thing.  Makes you think.

[Crow]

Maybe Tank or someone else could elaborate on how offensive fanny might be perceived in a culture that uses British English, but I don't imagine most Americans would be incensed if someone said "ouch, I fell on my fanny and boy it hurt!".

Not offensive in the slightest its parallel with calling a penis a willy. When I hear Americans use the word fanny in reference to their backside it usually just makes me laugh as its usually used in complete innocence, I must have laughed for a good ten minuets when my little cousin said her fanny was hurting from horse riding.

[Davin]

If I may interject, one more angle of this argument not yet expressed is the stigma attached to use of certain words in society at large. That is reason enough to curtail children's use of profanity.

I refrain from using 'bad' language in front of my son because I don't want him using the same words. Not because it is itself offensive to other people (though, of course it is), but because he will be viewed much more negatively by the people around him. So when I say "don't use that word", and he replies "why not?", my answer is "because people hearing you use that word will think you're not very clever". That is the fact of it. The explanation is accepted - and heeded with positive understanding.

I find great pleasure in swearing around friends (and other people who already know I'm not very clever), but I have learned the situations where it might be to my detriment (at a work meeting for example) to use bad language. My children, at their age, are incapable of making such a judgement so I therefore consider it important to disallow profanity in any situation.

I think the bolded is a bad characterisation of those who use profanity and should not be taught or supported by anyone.

I absolutely agree with you. It is a very real and widespread prejudice though whether we like it or not.

I don't like people trying to tell me which words I can or can't say, so I'm doing something about it by questioning it and not perpetuating it. The very idea that someone would express that not limiting their word choice makes them less clever than those who limit their word choice for illogical reasons, is very silly and lacking in self-awareness.