Christianity & Islam - A dialogue

[iSok]

Since some members suggested an interfaith dialogue between these two religions.
Personally I would love to know more about Christianity and it's beliefs.

So my first question for the Christians here is:

Do you believe in religious pluralism?
That there are other religions that also lead to God.
I remember that St. Augustine said something about that.

[AnimatedDirt]

Since some members suggested an interfaith dialogue between these two religions.
Personally I would love to know more about Christianity and it's beliefs.

So my first question for the Christians here is:

Do you believe in religious pluralism?
That there are other religions that also lead to God.
I remember that St. Augustine said something about that.

No.  That's not to say that Christianity is the only path to "heaven".  I realize this is going to be difficult to explain, but you're asking about my personal belief.  Sometimes that differs from mainstream beliefs which also means there is probably no proof to back up this personal belief.

The "religion" of God is progressive.  In my personal belief, Christianity, in it's most general sense, is the closest, but it's not only Christians who will be saved.  God will call (turn hearts/beliefs/motivations) of each of those who love Him when the time comes.  It's not going to be that Muslims will all have to claim or turn to Christianity or vice versa for example, its that in the last literal days, there will be something that will unite all of God's people whatever religious flag they wave.  What that thing will be, I don't know, I have a clue, but again it falls in line with Christianity's take on the matter.

[iSok]

Thanks for your reply AD, I appreciate it.

Within Islam it's a bit different, it's also hard to explain. The Qur'an insists and demands
to take the Unity of God very serious and not too set up partners with Him.

God within Islam is seen as a Reality, the only Reality.
During human history each civillization and nation had their own way of approaching God.
And sometimes human beings set up other gods to approach God which the Qur'an is critical off because
in many ways it leads to polytheism with no coherent structure.

About religious pluralism; you should take a look at this:



Maya creation myth (according to the Popol Vuh)

Here is the story of the beginning,
when there was not one bird,
not one fish,
not one mountain.
Here is the sky, all alone.
Here is the sea, all alone.
There is nothing more
–no sound, no movement.
Only the sky and the sea.
(Note similarity with the beginning of Genesis)

Only Heart-of-Sky, alone.
And these are his names:
Maker and Modeler,
Kukulkan,
and Hurricane.

(20:8 ) Allah - there is no god but He. His are the most excellent names.

But there is no one to speak his names.
There is no one to praise his glory.
There is no one to nurture his greatness.
And so Heart-of-Sky thinks,
"Who is there to speak my name?
Who is there to praise me?
How shall I make it dawn?"

(Hadith Qudsi: 'I was a treasure that was not known, so I loved to be known. Hence I created the creatures and I made Myself known to them, and thus they came to know Me.')

Heart-of-Sky only says the word,
"Earth,"
and the earth rises,
like a mist from the sea.
He only thinks of it,
and there it is.
He thinks of mountains,
and great mountains come.
He thinks of trees,
and trees grow on the land.

((36:82) Whenever He wills a thing, He just commands it "Be" and it is.)

And so Heart-of-Sky says,
"Our work is going well."


Genesis: God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

Now Heart-of-Sky plans the creatures of the forest
-birds, deer, jaguars and snakes.
And each is given his home.
"You the deer, sleep here along the rivers.
You the birds, your nests are in the trees.
Multiply and scatter," he tells them.
(Genesis once again)

Then Heart-of-Sky says to the animals,
"Speak, pray to us."
But the creatures can only squawk.
The creatures only howl.
They do not speak like humans.
They do not praise Heart-of-Sky
And so the animals are humbled.
They will serve those who will worship Heart-of-Sky.
And Heart-of-Sky tries again.
Tries to make a giver of respect.
Tries to make a giver of praise.
Here is the new creation,
made of mud and earth.

(15:26) Surely We brought man into being out of dry ringing clay which was wrought from black mud)

It doesn't look very good.
It keeps crumbing and softening.
It looks lopsided and twisted.
It only speaks nonsense.
It cannot multiply.
So Heart-of-Sky lets it dissolved away.
(Different stages of human development)
Now Heart-of-Sky plans again.
Our Grandfather and Our Grandmother are summoned.
They are the most wise spirits.
"Determine if we should carve people from wood,"
commands Heart-of-Sky.

(Adam and Eve)

They run their hands over the kernels of corn.
They run their hands over the coral seeds.
"What can we make that will speak and pray?
asks Our Grandfather.
What can we make that will nurture and provide?"
asks Our Grandmother.
They count the days,
the lots of four,
seeking an answer for Heart-of-Sky.
Now they give the answer,
"It is good to make your people with wood.
They will speak your name.
They will walk about and multiply."
"So it is," replies Heart-of-Sky.

(7:172) And recall (0 Prophet) when your Lord brought forth descendants from the loins of the sons of Adam, and made them witnesses against their ownselves. asking them: 'Am I not your Lord?' They said: 'Yes, we do testify.'  We did so lest you claim on the Day of Resurrection: 'We were unaware of this.'

And as the words are spoken, it is done.
The doll-people are made
with faces carved from wood.
But they have no blood, no sweat.
They have nothing in their minds.
They have no respect for Heart-of-Sky.
They are just walking about,
But they accomplish nothing.
"This is not what I had in mind,"
says Heart-of-Sky.
And so it is decided to destroy
these wooden people.
Hurricane makes a great rain.
It rains all day and rains all night.
There is a terrible flood
and the earth is blackened.
The creatures of the forest
come into the homes of the doll-people.

(Noah's flood)

"You have chased us from our homes
so now we will take yours,"
they growl.
And their dogs and turkeys cry out,
"You have abused us
so now we shall eat you!"
Even their pots and grinding stones speak,
"We will burn you and pound on you
just as you have done to us!"
The wooden people scatter into the forest.
Their faces are crushed,
and they are turned into monkeys.
And this is why monkeys look like humans.
They are what is left of what came before,
an experiment in human design.

(Human rebellion, destruction of nature and human evolution?)

(15:10) (O Muhammad), certainly We did send Messengers before you among the nations which have gone by.

The similarities are there, no doubt about that. The same counts for the Maori in New Zealand for example or the Chinese.
It seems that everyone is trying to say the same but with elements that are known and familiar to these people.

As the Qur'an points it out (language known to the inhabitants):

(14:4) Never have We sent a Messenger but he has addressed his people in their language that he may fully expound his Message to them.

So in a certain way the following verse points out that there are multiple ways to approach God and that each has it's way.

For each of you We have appointed a Law and a way of life. And had God so willed, He would surely have made you one single community; instead, (He gave each of you a Law and a way of life) in order to test you by what He gave you. Vie, then, one with another in good works. Unto God is the return of all of you; and He will then make you understand the truth concerning the matters on which you disagreed. (5:48)

But that doesn't mean that God will explain in an elaborate way what He gave to the Christians or to the Jews or the Maya's.
The central dogma is still Islam, as the Qur'an is meant to transmit that. And is seen according to the Qur'an
the most pure way to approach God. But as you pointed out, other religions are still valid.

[AnimatedDirt]

Thanks for your reply AD, I appreciate it.

Within Islam it's a bit different, it's also hard to explain. The Qur'an insists and demands
to take the Unity of God very serious and not too set up partners with Him.

God within Islam is seen as a Reality, the only Reality.
During human history each civillization and nation had their own way of approaching God.
And sometimes human beings set up other gods to approach God which the Qur'an is critical off because
in many ways it leads to polytheism with no coherent structure.

But that doesn't mean that God will explain in an elaborate way what He gave to the Christians or to the Jews or the Maya's.
The central dogma is still Islam, as the Qur'an is meant to transmit that. And is seen according to the Qur'an
the most pure way to approach God. But as you pointed out, other religions are still valid.

I want to clarify that while one may reach/find God being a [insert religion/belief here], that there is only one way to God, whatever that truth is.  My point is that while a person may be (let's say Buddhist since there is no concept of the Abrahamic God nor of that God being the Creator as you and I believe) Buddhist, that person may have the inner belief or faith or whatever it is that when the moment comes and something triggers his/her mind to say, "Hey that's right...", he/she will believe and thus be saved regardless having been Buddhist for 99.9999% of their life.  My Christian spin on this is that something will convince this person that God is God and believe and so be saved.  It only takes a moment to believe and be convinced.  The question is when does that epiphany click?  When there is still time or when *you are staring at the Holy City from outside the walls?

So every religion is not "valid" for salvation sake, but all the saved will come from all walks of life.  Dare I say, even staunch Atheists, Satanists...

[OldGit]

Dare I say, even staunch Atheists, Satanists...

I don't think a protestant christian can admit justification by works, it's faith alone.  So no.

A catholic or orthodox theologian might possibly find a way to save the likes of me, by my works alone.  I wouldn't bet much on it.

Happily, both your religions are fantasies and I don't care.

[AnimatedDirt]

Dare I say, even staunch Atheists, Satanists...

I don't think a protestant christian can admit justification by works, it's faith alone.  So no.

A catholic or orthodox theologian might possibly find a way to save the likes of me, by my works alone.  I wouldn't bet much on it.

Happily, both your religions are fantasies and I don't care.

I didn't mean that an Atheist could be saved (at least by the Christian reckoning) without at some point admitting to God and therefore belief.  I just meant that there will be people that are saved that may've been Atheist or Satanist (just picking the seemingly most opposite view) moments either before their death or come to a belief in as an epiphany of some sort.

[Sweetdeath]

Before I get saved, I need to attach my arm floatation devices. e_e

[ThinkAnarchy]

I will answer this based upon my Roman Catholic upbringing.

Yes, I believe many other religions worship the same god I used to. That is one of the main things that got me to begin questioning what I was taught. From the Catholics perspective though, the other religions that don't baptize, which is a prerequisite for getting into heaven, are essentially fucked. From what I was taught, if you haven't been told about the "one true god" and baptism, you're ok. If missionaries have reeked havoc on your region and you still don't get baptized, your fucked.

In summation, many Catholics believe other faiths worship the same god. However, other faiths fail to meet the prerequisites to get into heaven.

Hope that helps.

[Evilbeagle]

I find it odd when I stop to think that every religion has its own holy text but that text was written by a man or a group of men.
(Man referring to the species not the gender)

Of course they all say "It is the word of God", presumably given to someone in some divine revelation or whatever.

That's my problem. What would be to stop me producing a book I had written and then making out
it was dictated to me by Dog. Nothing !

There is no proof, either way.

[OldGit]

That's my problem. What would be to stop me producing a book I had written and then making out
it was dictated to me by Dog. Nothing !

Don't knock it!  It worked for Joseph Smith. 

[Sweetdeath]

Can a beagle help you write a best seller like the bible?

[Tristan Jay]

I will answer this based upon my Roman Catholic upbringing.

Yes, I believe many other religions worship the same god I used to. That is one of the main things that got me to begin questioning what I was taught. From the Catholics perspective though, the other religions that don't baptize, which is a prerequisite for getting into heaven, are essentially fucked. From what I was taught, if you haven't been told about the "one true god" and baptism, you're ok. If missionaries have reeked havoc on your region and you still don't get baptized, your fucked.

In summation, many Catholics believe other faiths worship the same god. However, other faiths fail to meet the prerequisites to get into heaven.

Hope that helps.

It's interesting how the logic of dogma, when re-worded in a very frank way throws some problems into sharp relief.  Clarity seems like a very serious problem!  God, be clear about which religion is the right one!  And the answer we get is like trying to wear glasses in a rain storm, things do not become clear, they become increasingly unclear and more confusing.  Approaching it from my background in the Christian faith, for example, we have this notion that it was so important to God that we be saved by sacrificing his son/himself to himself to save us from sin.  But there is doubt, and it shouldn't be there!  If it was so important, and such a monumental sacrifice, then why leave so many openings for doubt and questioning?  We've got the whole planet wired up for survellance, couldn't there have been a better time to make absolute sure that more doubt could have been eliminated?  Wasn't it that important?  It's particularly interesting since Islam emerged after Christianity, which from a superficial standpoint seems to confuse the issue even more (no offense is meant to Islam, BTW, I am simply trying to develop the idea that something that should be more clear is profoundly confusing).

Not meaning to derail the Christian & Islam dialogue, I think this is great idea, very interesting to see unfold.

[Stevil]

...and believe and so be saved

The whole requirement for belief without proof or evidence is simply laughable, it is so obvious that this human sourced clause is to push people into these religions.
Make's out that the worst thing a person can do is not believe. I struggle to see how an adult can fall for this rubbish.

[OldGit]

Hear, hear!   

[Stevil]

From the Catholics perspective though, the other religions that don't baptize, which is a prerequisite for getting into heaven

What exactly constitutes a baptism?

I've had a few baths in my time, I have even swam completely under water in a pool, probably in the ocean and a river as well.
Did someone need to speak some magic words while I was doing it?
Can anyone say the spell or does it need to be a magician/holy person (or in Catholic's case a holy Man <emphasis on gender>)?

What if I was soaking at the hot pools and a priest in disguise (in speedos) was there and muttered the magic spell, would I then be baptised?