What do you make of Near death experiences/ out of body...

[none123]

What do you make of Near death experiences/ out of body experiences.  A lot of people have said they see a light and loved ones, future kids etc, then are resuscitated and can recall it, and supposedly this is evidence of an afterlife. But I am aware there just as many people who also claim they were abducted by aliens, or that they saw big foot or any other mythical creature. And also aware that g force tests that when the pressure built so high, that it causes the test subject to black out that they experience the same thing, so just a hallucination, right?

But my question is, what do you think of supposed cases where they claimed to have seen their body and after surgery or whatever are able to accurately describe something they supposedly couldn't see. For instance on a national geographic video "Moment of Death" some guy had a screen up, and was unconscious and had described a mannerism of the doctor.  Also heard of accounts of the patient saying which doctor performed an operation even though weren't told ahead of time, or what tool was used. What do you think of it? Lucky guess (ie, what about all the times they guessed wrong, obviously they wouldn't have been reported), lying, could actually see during the procedure, etc. And I've heard there were supposed to be experiments with this, having a pattern up high or something, but haven't heard if it was successful or if this experiment really existed.

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, i thought about science but it really is just a pseudo science. And my main reason for inquiring is because my mom is really into this crap, reads books about it, and is sure they are all telling the truth and not hallucinating.  and if I am ever to come out as an atheist, i hope to answer all possible questions.

[The Magic Pudding]

I found Susan Blackmores explanation reasonable.
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Books/D ... %20one.htm

[Gawen]

Bunk

http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html

Blackmore is mentioned in this article.

[iSok]

I didn't read the article in full.

But I read about it before. Scientist in general say
that at time of death the brain releases certain chemicals which causes hallucination and a nice feeling to
make the painful moment more bearable. (Patients with kidney failure seem to experience this a lot).

There are however extremely strange cases.
There was this case about a patient who was in heart surgery, his life was in danger.
During the surgery he almost died and at that moment he described that he was lifted up seeing the whole
room with doctors full of it.

He didn't just know what the doctors said, but also where they walked, where they stood and what they did and how many of them.
(before the surgery he met just one doctor, but he could describe the others without ever seeing them)
So far, there are no theories/explanations for this event.

[Whitney]

NDEs: the final thoughts of a dying brain.

I have very strong suspicions that the unbelievable accounts of NDEs are simply fabrications.

[LegendarySandwich]

I have very strong suspicions that the unbelievable accounts of NDEs are simply fabrications.

I'd be inclined to agree. If it sounds too good to be true...

[a-train]

I believe they are nothing but a neurological misfire.  The brain, interpreting the various inconsistent signals from the nervous system finds that the nervous system must be outside the body.  These experiences can be induced, they are commonly reported by pilots after passing out under extreme g forces.  The cause of their passing out is a loss of blood flow to the brain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-8QHOUWECU

In smaller centrifuges, the fluids in the ear also send some confusing signals to the brain just as it is losing its ability to interpret correct signals from the rest of the body:

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2003/07feb_stronggravity/

Take a look at this article:

http://pragmasynesi.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/near-death-and-out-of-body-experiences/

I personally have had two out-of-body experiences, both were LSD induced.

-a-train

[none123]

Thanks for the responses! Also I was thinking that if it wasn't normal for humans to dream, and I never dreamed before and then I had a dream one night, I would probably think something supernatural/religious was going on, but obviously not. Same with these NDE's, but are obviously much more rare because how often am I going to be that close to death and then make a recovery.

[Cycel]

Also I was thinking that if it wasn't normal for humans to dream, and I never dreamed before and then I had a dream one night, I would probably think something supernatural/religious was going on, but obviously not.

There is a interpretive process going on here, don't you think?  Does everyone experiencing a NDE make the assumption it was real, or do some put such experiences down to dreams?  Certainly the only NDEs we ever hear about are from those people who believe they had an out-of-body or other experience.  As for dreams it is my understanding that they were sometimes in the past viewed as communications with gods.  My discussions with hardcore Fundamentalists have led me to realize many people still interpret some of their dreams as communications with God.  

Unless some hard evidence one day come along supporting the validity of NDE experiences I will interpret them as vivid dreams, which we do know are relatively common.  Wikipedia says this:

In a study of fourteen lucid dreamers performed in 1991, people who perform wake-initiated lucid dreams operation (WILD) reported experiences consistent with aspects of out-of-body experiences such as floating above their beds and the feeling of leaving their bodies.[20] Due to the overlap between lucid dreams, near-death experiences, and out-of-body experiences, researchers say they believe a protocol could be developed to induce a lucid dream similar to a near-death experience in the laboratory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream

[The Magic Pudding]

NDEs: the final thoughts of a dying brain.

Or failures of interpretation of the dying brain.

Does that HAF fish portrait need to moved to the left a touch?
Maybe down a bit, or ... oh never mind.

[hvargas]

The mind is a wonder, a creator of its own image. It lives inside the brain as an intergrated part of it. Creates dreams which in many cases are just like a movie but the greates is the near death experience. In a dream the dreamer never dies and in a near death experience the subject never dies or it won't be a near death experience. The subject is experiencing something but is it a near death experience or is it something else? I will go with the something else as being a collection of a self-surviving defence mechanism combine with the desire to live. This is something that is yet to be understood by science but it will be discovered as being somewhat as I had pointed out. The notion of a prior life is a collection of an individual family history that has been written in the genes or some particular gene and inhereted. At one time or other it manifest itself more vividly in an individual givin it the notion of an earlier life. This last statement is to illustrate that there are explanation for our experiences.

[pilchardo]

I haven't had a near death experience although I have had OBEs. Sometimes it's almost as vivid as being awake and sometimes it feels a bit like a dream. I used to be skeptical but not any more.

[The Magic Pudding]

I haven't had a near death experience although I have had OBEs. Sometimes it's almost as vivid as being awake and sometimes it feels a bit like a dream. I used to be skeptical but not any more.

Do they ask about stuff like that before they give you a drivers licence?

[Achronos]

I think it comes down to what you are most persuaded by. Does it seem more plausible that we can explain these experiences in terms of the traumatic stress that your body and brain is going through when you are near dying? Or is it more plausible to suggest, "No. What's happened here is a soul has been released from connection with the body." I think that the scientific explanation may be more compelling in this regard, however, for example, how can it explain séances? The answer is we just don't know enough yet. Even if you were to make a good argument against séances, for example examining the credibility of one who is communication with the spirits, that still does not disprove the existence of ghosts. There very well could be ghosts and communicaton with the dead. You just have to decide for yourself what makes the best explanation out of the evidence that we have.

I think firstly we must examine if a soul exists and the arguments for and against. Secondly when examining the evidence for and against NDES's we must look at it case by case basis.

[LegendarySandwich]

I think it comes down to what you are most persuaded by. Does it seem more plausible that we can explain these experiences in terms of the traumatic stress that your body and brain is going through when you are near dying? Or is it more plausible to suggest, "No. What's happened here is a soul has been released from connection with the body." I think that the scientific explanation may be more compelling in this regard, however, for example, how can it explain séances? The answer is we just don't know enough yet. Even if you were to make a good argument against séances, for example examining the credibility of one who is communication with the spirits, that still does not disprove the existence of ghosts. There very well could be ghosts and communicaton with the dead. You just have to decide for yourself what makes the best explanation out of the evidence that we have.

I think firstly we must examine if a soul exists and the arguments for and against. Secondly when examining the evidence for and against NDES's we must look at it case by case basis.

...What scientific arguments  are there for the existence of souls?