Western Medicine and Bill Maher

[Recusant]

Depends on the area. For trauma and certain infections, you're right. For degenerative diseases, I disagree.

Voter, that's the second time you've presented that little nugget in this thread.  I'll ask you a second time, using precisely the same wording you ignored previously: Do you have a suggestion where one might turn rather than modern science-based medicine when dealing with a degenerative disease?

[Whitney]

Third leading is mainstream medicine. They just don't like to point that out.

I don't' think you got the point of recusant's post....that far more died when we didn't have modern medicine.

And who is THEY?

[Voter]

Depends on the area. For trauma and certain infections, you're right. For degenerative diseases, I disagree.

Voter, that's the second time you've presented that little nugget in this thread.  I'll ask you a second time, using precisely the same wording you ignored previously: Do you have a suggestion where one might turn rather than modern science-based medicine when dealing with a degenerative disease?

I would suggest nutritional and cleansing approaches, such as juice fasting. Actually I'd suggest employing these before the problems arise in the first place. And for back problems I'd suggest going to a chiropractor.

Here are some statistics on complementary and alternative medicine use in the U.S.
How Many People Use CAM
In the United States, approximately 38 percent of adults (about 4 in 10) and approximately 12 percent of children (about 1 in 9) are using some form of CAM, shown in figure 1.

Who Uses CAM Most
People of all backgrounds use CAM. However, CAM use among adults is greater among women and those with higher levels of education and higher incomes. Figure 2 shows the percentage of people using CAM by age. Figure 3 shows CAM use by race/ethnicity.

CAM Therapies Used the Most
Nonvitamin, nonmineral natural products are the most commonly used CAM therapy among adults. Use has increased for several therapies, including deep breathing exercises, meditationA conscious mental process using certain techniquesâ€"such as focusing attention or maintaining a specific postureâ€"to suspend the stream of thoughts and relax the body and mind., massagePressing, rubbing, and moving muscles and other soft tissues of the body, primarily by using the hands and fingers. The aim is to increase the flow of blood and oxygen to the massaged area. therapy, and yoga. Figure 4 shows the percentage of people using the most common CAM therapies and therapies with significant increases between 2002 and 2007.

[Davin]

Here are some statistics on complementary and alternative medicine use in the U.S.

I don't get it, are you willingly trying to use an appeal to majority as a point?

[Voter]

I don't' think you got the point of recusant's post....

I wasn't replying to recusant's post, I was replying to yours.

And who is THEY?

Doctors in general. Specifically the CDC. That's who you linked to.

[Voter]

Here are some statistics on complementary and alternative medicine use in the U.S.

I don't get it, are you willingly trying to use an appeal to majority as a point?

Of course not, as 38% isn't a majority.

[Davin]

Here are some statistics on complementary and alternative medicine use in the U.S.

I don't get it, are you willingly trying to use an appeal to majority as a point?

Of course not, as 38% isn't a majority.

Then what is your point?

[TheJackel]

I haven't used any kind of medical help in that regard for I think the last 18 years. I haven't been sick in 4 years, and I think the last time I had the flu was about 9 years ago.

And I find it funny that the news media runs rampant with fear mongering on H1N1 when it didn't seem to kill anymore people a year on average than other flu strains (though I could be wrong here).

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/

[Voter]

Then what is your point?

None. Just giving some additional info.

[Whitney]

And for back problems I'd suggest going to a chiropractor.

Yes, because the first thing I want to do when my back is hurting is go to someone who will make it worse.

[Whitney]

And I find it funny that the news media runs rampant with fear mongering on H1N1 when it didn't seem to kill anymore people a year on average than other flu strains (though I could be wrong here).

Well, the media is stupid in regard to how they cover pretty much every topic, especially diseases they can use to scare viewers so they'll watch/listen more.

H1N1 was only on the CDC radar because it wasn't detected early enough and it was virulent (aggressive) than average flu strains.  So, it was important that they got a vaccine ready to protect the young and elderly.  They had that vaccine ready pretty quickly which may be why there was no noticeable difference in communities (though there might be if someone were to find national statistics...considering that those who die, very old people and babies, tend not to be the ones we interact with on a daily basis).

[TheJackel]

And I find it funny that the news media runs rampant with fear mongering on H1N1 when it didn't seem to kill anymore people a year on average than other flu strains (though I could be wrong here). :pop:

[Recusant]

Thank you for your reply, Voter.

I would suggest nutritional and cleansing approaches, such as juice fasting. Actually I'd suggest employing these before the problems arise in the first place. And for back problems I'd suggest going to a chiropractor.

While I agree that good nutrition is important to health (you'll be hard put to find an MD who would disagree), I would appreciate some data which supports the idea that CAM is a valid approach to dealing with degenerative diseases.  According to the site you referenced, for many CAM therapies that data is lacking:

From The Use of Complementary and Alternative Medicine in the United States:

While scientific evidence exists regarding some CAM therapies, for most there are key questions that are yet to be answered through well-designed scientific studiesâ€"questions such as whether these therapies are safe and whether they work for the purposes for which they are used.

Specifically, I think it would be good to see data relating to the effectiveness of "nutritional and cleansing approache" in dealing with degenerative disease.  I'd also like to emphasise that modern medicine is actively researching a wide variety of techniques for dealing with diseases of all kinds, including degenerative diseases.  When a technique or therapy has been proven to be effective, it's incorporated into treatments.  So to point to such things as nutritional approaches as if they aren't being considered at all by science based medicine is not accurate.

Nonvitamin, nonmineral natural products are the most commonly used CAM therapy among adults. Use has increased for several therapies, including deep breathing exercises, meditationA conscious mental process using certain techniquesâ€"such as focusing attention or maintaining a specific postureâ€"to suspend the stream of thoughts and relax the body and mind., massagePressing, rubbing, and moving muscles and other soft tissues of the body, primarily by using the hands and fingers. The aim is to increase the flow of blood and oxygen to the massaged area. therapy, and yoga. Figure 4 shows the percentage of people using the most common CAM therapies and therapies with significant increases between 2002 and 2007.

These therapies all sound more or less reasonable, and physical therapy is a recognised treatment for a wide variety of disabilities and illnesses which is already in use by science based medicine.  However, the list of therapies which were included the National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) includes a lot of what I would describe as quackery:

CAM Therapies Included in the 2007 NHIS

Acupuncture
Ayurveda
Biofeedback
Chelation therapy
Chiropractic or osteopathic manipulation
Deep breathing exercises
Diet-based therapies
Atkins diet
Macrobiotic diet
Ornish diet
Pritikin diet
South Beach diet
Vegetarian diet
Zone diet
Energy healing therapy/Reiki
Guided imagery
Homeopathic treatment
Hypnosis
Massage
Meditation
Movement therapies
Alexander technique
Feldenkrais
Pilates
Trager psychophysical integration
Natural products (nonvitamin and nonmineral, such as herbs and other products from plants, enzymes, etc.)
Naturopathy
Progressive relaxation
Qi gong
Tai chi
Traditional healers
Botanica
Curandero
Espiritista
Hierbero or Yerbera
Native American healer/Medicine man
Shaman
Sobador
Yoga

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for H1N1, just a little anecdotal evidence:  My healthy, active 5 year old niece nearly died from it.  The only things which saved her were an emergency helicopter life flight and some very good care by an outstanding children's hospital.
  One of the biggest pandemics in modern times was the "Spanish" flu which struck in 1918 and lasted until 1920, in which somewhere between 50 and 100 million people died. It's good to have a healthy respect for the potential danger which flu viruses can represent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A bit more back on topic.  Here's a video I came across which deals with germ theory denialism that includes a take on Bill Maher's public statements on the issue.  The video maker's evidence against Maher is only circumstantial, but I think his wider point regarding the lack of evidence which supports those who reject science based medicine, and how their tactics mirror those used by creationists is legitimate.

 [youtube:4dhje3rv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyodvwxe4mE[/youtube:4dhje3rv]

[Voter]

Thank you for your reply, Voter.

I would suggest nutritional and cleansing approaches, such as juice fasting. Actually I'd suggest employing these before the problems arise in the first place. And for back problems I'd suggest going to a chiropractor.

While I agree that good nutrition is important to health (you'll be hard put to find an MD who would disagree), I would appreciate some data which supports the idea that CAM is a valid approach to dealing with degenerative diseases.  According to the site you referenced, for many CAM therapies that data is lacking:

From The Use of Complementary and Alternative Medicine in the United States:

While scientific evidence exists regarding some CAM therapies, for most there are key questions that are yet to be answered through well-designed scientific studiesâ€"questions such as whether these therapies are safe and whether they work for the purposes for which they are used.

Specifically, I think it would be good to see data relating to the effectiveness of "nutritional and cleansing approache" in dealing with degenerative disease.

The evidence is necessarily limited to the logical and anecdotal due to the high cost of performing medical studies for approaches that can't be patented. I'm currently working with a company that has developed one drug for one disease. To get through Phase II testing they burned through $40 million of private equity. Phase III will cost over $100 million. Big pharma stepped in at that point. Obviously no one will put that into testing juice fasting, as even if wildly successful, there won't be exclusive rights. It's been fascinating working on this.

I'd also like to emphasise that modern medicine is actively researching a wide variety of techniques for dealing with diseases of all kinds, including degenerative diseases.  When a technique or therapy has been proven to be effective, it's incorporated into treatments.  So to point to such things as nutritional approaches as if they aren't being considered at all by science based medicine is not accurate.

OK, then you show me the data in which these approaches were shown to be ineffective. I doubt there's many out there, and the few you do hear about are rigged in big pharma's favor. For instance, you'll sometimes hear that a study showed a certain vitamin to not be effective in a certain treatment. However, they use the viatmins in insignificant doses or inappropriate stages of the disease.

These therapies all sound more or less reasonable, and physical therapy is a recognised treatment for a wide variety of disabilities and illnesses which is already in use by science based medicine. However, the list of therapies which were included the National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) includes a lot of what I would describe as quackery:

CAM Therapies Included in the 2007 NHIS

Acupuncture
Ayurveda
Biofeedback
Chelation therapy
Chiropractic or osteopathic manipulation
Deep breathing exercises
Diet-based therapies
Atkins diet
Macrobiotic diet
Ornish diet
Pritikin diet
South Beach diet
Vegetarian diet
Zone diet
Energy healing therapy/Reiki
Guided imagery
Homeopathic treatment
Hypnosis
Massage
Meditation
Movement therapies
Alexander technique
Feldenkrais
Pilates
Trager psychophysical integration
Natural products (nonvitamin and nonmineral, such as herbs and other products from plants, enzymes, etc.)
Naturopathy
Progressive relaxation
Qi gong
Tai chi
Traditional healers
Botanica
Curandero
Espiritista
Hierbero or Yerbera
Native American healer/Medicine man
Shaman
Sobador
Yoga

I think there's a lot of good stuff in that list, and have used 6 or more myself. I used Pilates and a special support garment to fix a mild inguinal hernia. Beats surgery in my books.

[Sophus]

[youtube:214oy21a]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyodvwxe4mE[/youtube:214oy21a]

I wonder if his views have matured since Politically Incorrect. During one of his recent Leno visits (I know - it's a terrible show, I only watch it for Maher) Maher criticized religion for being a bunch of "nonsense tales written before anyone knew what a germ was, or where the sun went at night". It's hard to imagine him supporting Health Care Reform so fervently while simultaneously cursing Western Medicine. I dunno, he's a bit a mystery here. Maybe the fact that we can't decipher what he's saying does mean he's anti-science when it comes to medicine.