God's Villainy

[dgmort19]

Yet that's exactly what you're stating when you claim that the future is immutable.

So you say, PoopShoot! We have differing opinions of what choice is.

Anyway, even if an immutable timeline negates choice, this still invalidates the justification for human existence based on free will. For if the future is immutable, and God knows the outcome of our "choiceless" existence, if you will, then that still leaves a valueless free will for godless people like you and me. It is vacant of the legitimacy of allowing us opportunity to reach Heaven. And that makes God a "right bastard." :p

[PoopShoot]

It is vacant of legitimacy in allowing us opportunity to reach Heaven. And that makes God a "right bastard." :p

I agree.  In fact, I personally point this out through the doctrine of original sin.

1. God created humanity and dictated what features of mankind would be inherited by their children.
2. Actions performed in life cannot be inherited by our offspring (Lamarckism).
3. The doctrine of original sin says that mankind all inherited Adam's sin (an action).

From this we can infer that god designed sin to be the one heritable action.  As an aside, this always makes me chuckle, as creationists love to denounce evolution by expounding Lamarckian concepts, yet their own doctrine of original sin is an example of Lamarckism in action.  Right, back on topic.

4. I inherited sin from previous generations, I was born with it.
5. The doctrine of hellfire says that sin is the one thing that makes me deserving of hell.

Conclusion: I have no choice in the matter of sin as inferred by 4.  I was created that way as inferred by 1-3.  Since god created me in a way that guaranteed me to be sinful, 5 implies that he created me inherently in need of going to hell.

Since god created me to go to hell, he's a right bastard.

[The Magic Pudding]

And that makes God a "right bastard." :p

Yes, or the bastard that never was.

[PoopShoot]

And that makes God a "right bastard." :p

Yes, or the bastard that never was.

It's already understood by virtue of the fact that the thread was started by an atheist that this whole conversation is a hypothetical.

[dgmort19]

I edited the wording of my sentence:

It is vacant of the legitimacy of allowing us opportunity to reach Heaven.

But it looks like you understood my intended meaning anyway.

Since god created me in a way that guaranteed me to be sinful, 5 implies that he created me inherently in need of going to hell.

To play Devil's advocate, Christians would argue that God "reaches out" to us and allows us to override the sin nature vicariously by means of Christ's sacrifice.

This, of course, is where my ideas about the uselessness of an atheist's free will come in.

[PoopShoot]

To play Devil's advocate, Christians would argue that God "reaches out" to us and allows us to override the sin nature by means of Christ's vicarious sacrifice.

I respond to that by pointing out the fact that this doesn't change my lack of free will, I'm still born with sin that I didn't choose to commit.  I then remind them that the sacrifice was unnecessary outside of god commanding it (Hebrews 9:22) which implies that god made original sin for the explicit purpose of getting a gore fix.

[dgmort19]

Yes, I agree completely. The only reason this sacrifice was necessary in the first place was because it's the very situation that God, himself, established!

[Thumpalumpacus]

The answer I always get is, "he could have made us robots but he loved us more than that, so he gave us freewill. Freewill is why there is evil."

Ask them chapter and verse on that.  There is no verse in the Bible that mentions free will, to the best of my knowledge, but plenty that make mention of "God's will" being done.

[dgmort19]

Free will is apparent in our actions. Be religious or don't. A Christian would say that, since we're created by God, the free will must be a part of that package.

[Sophus]

The answer I always get is, "he could have made us robots but he loved us more than that, so he gave us freewill. Freewill is why there is evil."

Ask them chapter and verse on that.  There is no verse in the Bible that mentions free will, to the best of my knowledge, but plenty that make mention of "God's will" being done.

True, yet it persists as the typical view. Unless they're Calvinists I suppose.

Free will is apparent in our actions. Be religious or don't. A Christian would say that, since we're created by God, the free will must be a part of that package.

I disagree, but that's a whole other topic, so I shan't derail.  

[Diosjenin]

1)   God is omnipotent. Anything that can be done, he can do.
2)   God is omniscient. Anything that there is to know, he knows.
3)   When God creates a human being with free will, due to 2), he is completely aware of the human being’s ultimate fate.

Didn't have the time to run through ~4 pages of responses, so my apologies if this objection has already been covered.

If free will does exist, then there must exist multiple potential actions which we are able to take before we make a decision between them (i.e. in addition to actions which we take or have taken, there are also actions which we could take or could have taken in their place, each with their own set of repercussions).  So a true omniscience that holds given this condition implies that God must be aware of all possible actions which Joe could take, but does not imply that God must know what specific set of actions out of all possible ones Joe will take.

 - Diosjenin -

[PoopShoot]

If free will does exist, then there must exist multiple potential actions which we are able to take before we make a decision between them (i.e. in addition to actions which we take or have taken, there are also actions which we could take or could have taken in their place, each with their own set of repercussions).  So a true omniscience that holds given this condition implies that God must be aware of all possible actions which Joe could take, but does not imply that God must know what specific set of actions out of all possible ones Joe will take.

 - Diosjenin -

Yeah, I made this point and then we spent four pages arguing it.

[Diosjenin]

Yeah, I made this point and then we spent four pages arguing it.

Figures.  The one time I don't read things...  ah well.  I'll go back and read the whole thing when I have time on Friday afternoon.

 - Diosjenin -

[PoopShoot]

Yeah, I made this point and then we spent four pages arguing it.

Figures.  The one time I don't read things...  ah well.  I'll go back and read the whole thing when I have time on Friday afternoon.

 - Diosjenin -

Take your time.  I don't think you'll find it compelling.  None of the participants did.

[dgmort19]

Yeah, seriously. It was mainly just the two of us.