A less selfish Pascal's wager

[NinjaJesus]

So Pascal's wager is pretty much 'you might as well believe in god because if he exists then your going to heaven for believing' right?
Well i was thinking surely if you don't believe in God but lead a good life as an atheist (helping people, giving to charity ECT..) AND you die and God does exist if he is all loving and forgiving as Christians believe SURELY he would allow you into heaven?

For example an Atheist and a Christian both die and meet God ( I'm an Atheist so this is purely hypothetical). Both have been Good all their lives, Yet the Atheist has been Good because he helped fellow human beings and for the good of humanity rather than the Christian who may of just thought 'if i do good things then i will be allowed into heaven when i die'

I know several people who don't particularly like me being an atheist and always seem to revert to the old 'well at least I'm not going to hell' comeback in arguments but put this way surely the atheist is the better person? The atheist did the good things without expecting a reward, he expected that once he died he would simply decompose and be recycled.

So surely those who live their lives by pascals wager should reconsider, and not do good things out of what is ultimately selfishness and in fact think:

If I do good without religion and there is in fact a God when I die, surely doing these good things completely selflessly would in fact be as good (or better) than doing them in the name of the Church?

[skwurll]

In my own opinion, Pascal's wager is just for people who are afraid of hell.

[philosoraptor]

This is precisely why I've always felt the whole argument that atheists can't have morals is ridiculous.  Some of us know right from wrong well enough to do it without needing some book to outline it in detail.  What kind of person has to be told not to lie, cheat and steal to know that it's wrong?

Since this is a completely hypothetical situation, I'd like to believe that IF there was a God that was truly all-loving and all-knowing, he could see into the hearts of both the atheist and Christian and know that the atheist's heart was in the right place.  Not only that the atheist's heart was in the right place, but see the thought process that allowed the atheist to arrive at the conclusion that there was no God, and still allow him or her into Heaven.

I'd also be inclined to agree though that Pascal's Wager is for people who fear the unknown (or what comes after death).

[joeactor]

Not so fast... You're forgetting that the Christian god has an "Exclusivity Clause":

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me."
(John 14:6)

The problem is that other gods may also have exclusivity clauses...

Damned if you do.  Damned if you don't.

[pinkocommie]

This is precisely why I've always felt the whole argument that atheists can't have morals is ridiculous.  Some of us know right from wrong well enough to do it without needing some book to outline it in detail.  What kind of person has to be told not to lie, cheat and steal to know that it's wrong?

Also - the books that different people claim they derive morals from don't seem to outline much of anything in any real detail anyway regarding more difficult questions of morality - especially modern moral questions.  Inevitably the morality found in these old tomes is decided via interpretation, which I would argue isn't much different from you or I using common sense or empathy or whatever to decide right from wrong.

[philosoraptor]

I was thinking in terms of stuff like the 10 Commandments, but you're right.  Those things are just as open to interpretation as anything else.

I once had a pastor tell me that having hate in your heart was the same as committing murder, and that having lusty thoughts was the same as adultery. lulwut?

[pinkocommie]

I was thinking in terms of stuff like the 10 Commandments, but you're right.  Those things are just as open to interpretation as anything else.

I once had a pastor tell me that having hate in your heart was the same as committing murder, and that having lusty thoughts was the same as adultery. lulwut?

Yeah, man, I was shocked when my sweetie first told me that he had serious issues with sex and sexual desire for a while because his mom told him growing up that, according to the bible, having lustful thoughts about someone was the same thing as raping them in god's eyes.  I was like - holy shit, srsly??

[philosoraptor]

I find drawing those kind of comparisons really dangerous.  When you consider how many well known serial killers and rapists, etc.. came from religious backgrounds (on top of being mentally ill), it seems even creepier.  I can think of a disturbed individual thinking about doing those kind of acts, but holding back knowing they are wrong.  If some yahoo priest comes along and tells them that lustful thoughts are the same as rape, and hate is the same as murder, what's to stop them if they believe those acts are one in the same?  If you're already having lustful thoughts, might as well go and get your rape on, if you're that kind of crazy that actually equates these things as being the same.

[Martin TK]

Not so fast... You're forgetting that the Christian god has an "Exclusivity Clause":

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me."
(John 14:6)

The problem is that other gods may also have exclusivity clauses...

Damned if you do.  Damned if you don't.

I've always thought that with all the gods roaming around, there is more likely to be a huge "heavenly" battle between the gods to see who gets to torture us Heathens.  It could be pretty spectacular, if you think about it.  Zeus and the Christian God, toe to toe, a real "rumble in the sky" kind of smackdown.  I figure I'll be a "spirit" by then, right, so I'll just slip out the side universe and get lost among the stars.

[joeactor]

I've always thought that with all the gods roaming around, there is more likely to be a huge "heavenly" battle between the gods to see who gets to torture us Heathens.  It could be pretty spectacular, if you think about it.  Zeus and the Christian God, toe to toe, a real "rumble in the sky" kind of smackdown.  I figure I'll be a "spirit" by then, right, so I'll just slip out the side universe and get lost among the stars.

Sunday!  Sunday!  Sunday!

Get ready!

The God Wrestling Federation is coming to *YOUR* universe!

See your favorite GWF superstars in a no-holds-barred smackdown of cosmic proportions!

See!  Yaweh "Smite Me!" Supreme and his half-human/half-god son Jesus face off against the terrible tag-team duo of Zeus and Odin!

Witness Loki "The Trickster" take it to the mat with "The Indian Elephant" Ganesh!

And you won't want to miss the "Harlot Half-Time" show!

Free plagues and pestilence for all the kiddies!

Show up early!

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But just SHOW UP!

[The Magic Pudding]

[Zeus and the Christian God, toe to toe, a real "rumble in the sky" kind of smackdown.

Maybe they all smited each other.  
That could be why we haven't seen any of them for so long.

So far as Pascal goes, I don't know if I could believe even if I tried really hard.
I don't think following the forms is enough for god.

[Jac3510]

As Joe pointed out, Christian doctrine says that only those who believe that Jesus is the Christ are saved (John 20:30-31). The problem I've always had with PW doesn't have anything to do with the typical critique that it can work just as well for any religion as Christianity . . . it's that it doesn't work for Christianity at all!

Full disclaimer: I'm speaking from the Reformation perspective that salvation is by faith alone. Works have no bearing on one's salvation. There are, however, forms of Christianity that think that works are absolutely necessary. Whether or not they have a proper understanding of "salvation" is a matter of theological debate between Christians. With them, I think, your point is valid and should be seriously considered. Again, however, from a conservative reformation perspective, the argument won't work because salvation has nothing to do with behavior and everything to do with Whom you are trusting for your salvation.

And philosoraptor, the standard argument is not that atheists cannot be moral. The Bible expressly says the can (Rom 2:14ff). The argument is that there is no objective foundations for morality if God does not exist. That's hardly a contentious point. Most atheistic philosophers accept it and try to ground morality in a rational subjectivity (i.e., "enlightened selfishness," etc.). But to your point, if any Christian says that a non-Christian cannot be moral, they are simply misinformed. It is extremely important theologically, biblically, and philosophically to recognize that you have the same capacity for morality as any theist.

[coltcat]

Pascal's wager has been failed since first minutes its was made.
best way to beat it is reversed pascals wager.
 
theres a god and they want to see if creations are smart enough to go to the theme park.
others will get waste (maybe not in a burning lake of fire,just stop to exist)
then he clean up his trace in any possible way and wrote some crazy book thousands years ago to challenge our capability of logic. it's a field training.

if any creator want some of his creation to become his friend , he will pick the not crazy one.

[skwurll]

Yeah, man, I was shocked when my sweetie first told me that he had serious issues with sex and sexual desire for a while because his mom told him growing up that, according to the bible, having lustful thoughts about someone was the same thing as raping them in god's eyes.  I was like - holy shit, srsly??

According to the church, everyone who has gone through puberty is a rapist.

[philosoraptor]

And philosoraptor, the standard argument is not that atheists cannot be moral.

Actually, yes it is.  Myself (and I'm sure others here) get it from a lot of so-called Christians (and sometimes people of other faiths).  But then again, it's not as if that many Christians are all that familiar with the Bible to know what it says about morality-they just assume those without a belief in God couldn't possibly have a system of morals.  I think you'd be surprised how many atheists have more knowledge of the Bible than your average Christian.  Either way, it's still a very common assumption that atheists can't be moral because they don't believe in God.