Theism VS Atheism 1on1 Debate COMMENTS

[Will]

Okay, getting back on topic...

I think the debate is over now. What are everyone's thoughts? Did I make mistakes? Did Brax? What points did you find interesting? Did you hear anything new? How would you have argued differently, either being me or Brax? Do you have any constructive advice for either of us?

I'd appreciate any thoughts.  

[rlrose328]

Too many comments really... his final post got me burning because it appears that he ignored most of what you said then posted how everything you said was wrong or misguided.     He did the fingers-in-the-ears LALALA thing better than any other person we've had post here recently, he just did it more formally than others.  Perhaps I'm biased, I don't know.  But for me, that was an exercise in futility... well-worded futility, but futility just the same.

[braxhunt]

I'm sorry to hear that it got you burning. I'm going to just say a couple of things here in my on defense. First, I expected that on an atheist forum I would get this kind of response. I mean, c'mon, I don't have that many theists cheering me on here. It makes sense that most of you would disagree. To those who have responded in a friendly and respectful way (which includes Will), I appreciate it. To those who responded unkindly, you might be happy atheists, but you aren't really friendly ones. And if anyone else wants to debate (even using a looser style) with the same professionalism as Will just let me know.

[Reginus]

I suppose the Athiests here will most likely think that Will won, and the Christians here will probably think that Braxton won. It seemed hard to follow at times, both because you were going back and forth about 14 different arguments, and because some of the dialog was just a tad technical. I do wish that Brax had gone more in depth with his afirmative arguments, as I think there is a lot of evidence for a god that spawns from examoning our human characteristics (ex. morality, love, reason).

[rlrose328]

Yeah, I figured a response would be "well, you're an atheist, of course you'd agree with Will."  By saying that, you're insinuating that we aren't tolerant or wise enough to make up our own minds, but rather are just nodding like a bobblehead with everything Will said.  I was raised in a Christian house, like Will.  My father wasn't a pastor, but my mother was the organist, music director, and choir director, so I got a lot of religion, a lot of it set to music.    or  :blink: or  :crazy: thrown in for good measure.  

I found myself nodding for points made on both sides... I just agreed with many more of Will's points that yours.  And I still feel it's an exercise in futility for an atheist and a theist to debate like this.  Neither side will convince the other side of the points made... it just won't happen.  All it does is reinforce the beliefs of each side even more, thus creating a bigger chasm, not a bridge between the 2.

You have been cordial and polite... and you haven't preached to us (until that final paragraph in your summation) so I appreciate that.  As for the "finger-ear-LALA" thing... we all do that when confronted with information that we disagree with so strongly.  It's much harder to change your world view than to just stick to your own side where it's comfy and safe and warm.  I think many of us have walked in your shoes... will you try to talk in ours for awhile?

[Will]

Rereading it now, I'm wondering of the topic wasn't too broad. A debate on the cosmological argument alone could be vast, but to have it as only one component of a much larger argument made it difficult for me to concentrate on each thing individually while also trying to keep the overarching theme in place. By the end, some of the tangents had gone off so far that they no longer, in my view, represented the intent of the debate.

If there is to be another debate, I think it would be wise to reduce the scope a bit, maybe just having the affirmative being one particular argument and the negative be a direct and opposing response to that one argument.

[braxhunt]

I appreciate those comments. I did not mean to characterize you as not being thinking people. I just assume that the majority of atheists will tend to agree with someone who is articulating their position. For some, debate only further polarizes, that's true. But, from a theist's point of view it is important to show that you don't check your brain at the door to believe in God. There are answers to atheist arguments like the one we saw here.

[braxhunt]

Will, I think that's fair for this type of setting.

[Arctonyx]

I appreciate those comments. I did not mean to characterize you as not being thinking people. I just assume that the majority of atheists will tend to agree with someone who is articulating their position. For some, debate only further polarizes, that's true. But, from a theist's point of view it is important to show that you don't check your brain at the door to believe in God. There are answers to atheist arguments like the one we saw here.

None that aren't based on utter fallacies that I can see. Again I have to congratulate Will, I would have lost my temper a while back. And while you seem like a nice guy Brax, you obviously have not checked your facts. You repeated the same fallacious arguments over and over again, and responded with rhetoric and straw men. Not only that but you tried to accuse Will of the same fallacies, when you either misunderstood his position, or were basing your own argument on a straw man or some other nonsense in the first place. You claim that Will has not answered the questions, when in reality you never gave him the time too. All the arguments you have put forward have been refuted many times, and are no longer in contention among theologians and professors, because they don't work.

[Will]

I'm too similar to a vulcan to lose my temper.  

[Arctonyx]

I'm too similar to a vulcan to lose my temper.  

It amazes me that Brax actually believes his CORE FACTS arguments have any merit. And that his cosmological ideas are even based in rational thought. I outlined an answer to all the points on his CORE FACTS thing, don't think I even got halfway through C before I started losing my patience

[Ultima22689]

I don't know why you're surprised, with all due respect to Brax that sort of flawed logic is the norm when it comes to most theist, doesn't ring true with them all but certainly through a lot of them.

[Whitney]

I haven't read the whole debate yet, so I have no opinion.

[LoneMateria]

The debate was okay.  Will you definitely have the patience of a Vulcan .  It would be nice if Brax hung around he would probably get more insight if he were to post openly on a thread (much narrower subject of course).  I didn't agree with most of his arguments mostly because I've heard them refuted before.  Will seemed to do better in the debate because he tackled brax's questions head on while brax at the end played the "La La La I can't hear you" game.  However before he played that game he seemed to do okay even though I didn't agree with his analysis or assertions.  

Anyway brax I was honestly hoping for some special argument or something new but you disappointed me.  You seem like a nice guy to me, but you showed a lack of imagination.  It looks to me like you got your arguments straight from an apologetic handbook and didn't double check the accuracy of the arguments or the common rebuttals to them.  I may be wrong but thats what it looks like from my perspective.  If you want to continue arguing for theism or Christianity why don't you make a thread about?  I'd be happy to participate and like I said it can give you insight into how we think and what we believe or don't believe.  Even if you think you might be beaten up a little the worst that can happen is that it will promote discussion on topics you deem are important.  So it can't be that bad ^_^

I'm assuming this thread is going to die off since the debate is over. Reginus, you seemed to miss my points and my intentions in your last post.  You seemed to think I was agreeing with brax or something I don't know.  The whole argument from infinite I was using seconds to demonstrate why brax's argument was wrong.  If you want to continue our debate in a more specific thread let me know, and I'll gather up our posts (at least our relevant parts of the posts) and condense it into a super post.  It doesn't have to be about the argument from infinite it can be the cosmological argument or why I don't think there is an objective morality (which you seem to either be confused about my position or we seem to have a misunderstanding somewhere).   Let me know ^_^

[Reginus]

@LoneMateria
No, I understand that you completely disagree with Brax. I simply said "case closed" because there wasn't much more that I could argue.

As for morality, I don't think we have found common ground on exactly what it is. You seem to have an interpretiation of "morality" as sort of a "rule book", while I think of it as more of a compass.

In any case, I think I'm done debating for a while. Time to go play some Starcraft!   Yeah, how much more geeky could I get?