After death experiences (what do you think of this theory?)

[Santiago]

Hello ya'll, first of all let me introduce myself since this is my very first post; My name is Santiago, im from Uruguay, im 20 years old and i've been an atheist since god knows when (pun); You see, in my endless quest for knowledge, i've been trying to learn about the subject of the origin of religion, evolution, cosmology (amongst other fascinating topics) as most I can.

I've been reading the board for a while now and yeah, its a great place, tons of quality threads and very nice people so yeah.

Ok, so with this thread, I wanted you to offer some of the things that have been around my head regarding the topic of after death experiences wich seems to be one of the most controversial out there.

So let me start by making a resume about how did this topic started to interest me so much; You see, 4 years ago, my dad, who sadly has a long history of health problems -specially heart related- , had to be immediately taken to he hospital one night,  because he was having a cardiac attack (this was a crushing experience to me), but thankfully, with a slow but stable recovery, he came out of the hospital just fine, although, he has to take tons of hypertension pills and nasty stuff like that (this is irrelevant).

Anyway, a few months later, he told me and my brother about this "experience" he had while being in this "clinically dead" state for about 5 minutes or so. He told us he had this enlightening  visions of never-seen-before places, and that he felt this overwhelming sensation of freedom and the kind of stuff you usually hear about these type of experiences.

Needless to say, being an atheist, i remained skeptical about his story, but what was I going to think about it? That he was lying about such a serious thing? No way; But his words and extraordinary story kept circling around my head for some time.

So after researching in books and the internet and whatever about the subject, I found, in a medical article, how they attributed these after death experiences to a little "divine endorphin" called dymethiltryptamine (some of you may already heard about it), which is naturally caused by the brain right in the second you die. (its funny, its also consumed as a recreative hallucinogenic drug and I read reports about having the most potent visionary properties - also, you can find dmt in some plants, but I don't have enough information about this)

So what would you, theists and atheists think about this? Do you find this as a logical explanation? Do you think these visions are just product of this endorphin or is it the dmt itself a gateway to "heaven", or none of them?

So Im interested on hearing your opinions on the subject and I hope its an interesting enough topic to make a nice discussion. Go.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Hi,

Personally I think NDE's are something like dreams as the system (in this case the brain) is shutting down only the system doesn't fully shut down and later recovers. Obviously there is, despite claims to the opposite, nothing to them because any objective tests done on the subject have consistently failed to provide any supporting evidence.

Another interesting one is how to explain visions (waking dreams) and hallucination (experiences that are so real seeming to the experiencee that they assume some mysterious/marvellous event happened).

Kyu

[Santiago]

Obviously there is, despite claims to the opposite, nothing to them because any objective tests done on the subject have consistently failed to provide any supporting evidence.

...Really? How do they even test this? Im intrigued.

Just for the record, Im not claiming there is an afterlife since I have no solid evidence to believe so, all I was saying is that maybe these chemicals are the responsible for such experiences.

[McQ]

Welcome to the forum, Santiago. Great topic to start off with too. Thanks.

I'm away from home at meetings all week and don't have too much time to go into on the topic right now, but I'm sure it will generate interest and discussion. My short answer is that it there is a natural chemical, physiological process (as you alluded to), which these can be attributed to. Neuroscience has a long way to go, but is gaining more information on the brain all the time.

I don't attribute anything supernatural to these types of events.

Great to have you here, and have fun!

[Santiago]

Thanks a lot for the hospitality McQ person.

Anyway, the whole thing baffles me... I mean, if any theist finds this natural chemical to be, like I said before, the gateway to heaven (like... let's say, this endorphin is the way the body tells the "soul" to... you know... go on), wouldn't that mean that if you get your head crushed by a tractor you wouldn't go to heaven? 'Cause in that case, the brain certainly wouldn't have enough time or whatever to segregate said endorphin (assuming the afterlife does exist); What would happen in that case?

You see, by trying to answer this, I only got like... 6 more questions; Annoying.

[Wraitchel]

From what I have read, the "evidence" has been contradictory surrounding NDE's. I do not believe that any theory has adequately explained the phenomenon yet. It is a subject I read extensively about after my mother died two years ago. Despite being an atheist, I clung to any shred of evidence that I might someday see her again. There are a number of different types of experiences one can have upon "death". They can be positive or negative, and the "hallucinations"can start days or hours before death occurs. NDE's can happen in any sort of death, from the classic, cardiac arrest, to childbirth, car accidents and old age. Despite rejecting gods for lack of evidence, I do not reject near death experiences as merely neurobiological events. I have worked as a hospice volunteer, and I watched my own mother take her last breath. I believe the dead go somewhere. The fact that there is no god does not mean that what we see is all there is. I know I'm departing from logic and taking an imaginary journey here, but maybe there is some sort of other-dimensional continuum of consciousness. I'm not saying I believe in such a thing, but I am open to the possibility. We don't know everything. We don't even know the shape of our universe or what was before the big bang. I hate to sound all new-agey and soft on reason, but  I have had some experiences myself that support the theory that we are connected on some psychological level.  I'm into Carl Jung, as I mentioned in another post. It's more than just a pleasant "what-if" kind of thought for me. Feel free to disagree or dismiss my opinion, though, 'cause I ain't got a shred of proof I could show ya (though I could tell you what I have seen and heard from the dying and those around them. Some of it is awfully hard to explain or dismiss.)

R

[Kyuuketsuki]

Obviously there is, despite claims to the opposite, nothing to them because any objective tests done on the subject have consistently failed to provide any supporting evidence.

...Really? How do they even test this? Im intrigued.

Just for the record, Im not claiming there is an afterlife since I have no solid evidence to believe so, all I was saying is that maybe these chemicals are the responsible for such experiences.

OK ... I'm not saying NDE's don't occur, just that they can be explained in rational terms (i.e. they are not spiritual).

There's some information here: http://skepdic.com/nde.html

I understand a new study is starting up at this moment.

Kyu

[Squid]

An analysis of the available scientific literature (because there's a bunch of crap out there surrounding NDEs even from professionals) seems to indicate a combination of factors leads to what people describe when experiencing NDEs but it is not always seen - many people come close to death and don't experience anything.  NDEs are sometimes accompanied by OBEs which have, in the last couple of years, been replicated in independent labs by different methods and scientists seem to have a better idea of what causes them.  NDEs however arise from most likely a large interaction of processes which are still being investigated.  However, there is not an entire field of researchers dedicated to studying this single phenomenon so I don't see the research fully explaining the physiology of NDEs too soon.

As for proof of life after death or a "soul" - they're really reaching on that one.

[Lila]

Hi Santiago, I'm new too.  

I've heard from some that the visions can also be a result of oxygen starvation on the brain. As for NDEs, several studies indicate that a person's NDE matches very closely to what they believe happens at death. In the middle ages, there were numerous reports of people havings NDEs about having to answer 3 questions to cross a bridge and get into the afterlife.  Today, people of all different religions have NDEs which seem to support their own faith, or at least the faith they are most familiar with. With that in mind, there seems to be very little to support actual "near death experiences".

[LARA]

If the brain does produce dymethiltryptamine when the body is near death, I would say these hallucinogenic experiences are only real in the mind of the individual experiencing them; there is  no mental gateway to heaven.  

What really really intrigues me is this, if these chemicals are being produced in the brain at death, is this just some of randomn cellular expulsion in the bran of a certain individuals or does this chemical have some significance evolutionarily?  

I mean if this chemical can be proven to occur in a large number of subjects so that it's considered a normal event, what purpose, if any,  would it serve to continue the species?  It doesn't behoove the human race any to have some squirt of a happy juice at the point of death does it?  Whether or not death is a happy or pleasant event is a trivial thing to survival; you're either dead or not dead (Unless of course you happen to be Schrodinger's cat   )

Unless the chemical release is  not for the purpose of making death pleasant, but for the purpose of reentering life.  Maybe the release of dymethiltryptamine some kind of huge chemical cry from the neurons that they refuse to die and somehow this chemical is not a gateway to heaven, but a gateway back into life.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Unless the chemical release is  not for the purpose of making death pleasant, but for the purpose of reentering life.  Maybe the release of dymethiltryptamine some kind of huge chemical cry from the neurons that they refuse to die and somehow this chemical is not a gateway to heaven, but a gateway back into life.

Given that everything that has evolved is supposed to have evolved for a reason I can see the argument for a chemical that aids return to life whereas if it were designed for death then it probably couldn't have evolved (would that be proof of design?)

Kyu

[LARA]

No.  Just because something positive occurs in biology before death doesn't prove anything really.  If it's happening in just a small subset of the population it could just be a randomn glitch.  If it's occurring in everyone prior to death, it might just be a natural result of neural cell death.  That's not proof positive of intelligent design, although I'm sure someone would use it as an argument.  It's kind of just like a convenient merciful coincidence.  Now if similar convenient coincidences keep popping up in biology that would be difficult to select for because they occur with some sort of fatal result...I might think hmmm... But I think it's going to take a freaking logo or something completely impossible to get me to believe that some designer, other than sexual selection and mate choice or some form of as yet proven cellular increase of randomn mutation in response to stress to accelerate  the process of evolution, is or has guided the evolution of life on this planet.  And even so, there is no proof that said designer is the God of the Bible.

[DennisK]

I like the theory that the chemical release is a way to jump start yourself to stay alive.  Interesting.

I too feel there is strong reason to believe ideas of an afterlife originated from this chemical reaction initially.  An out of body experience probably is very impressive.  And, subsequently, people who experienced NDE's and believed in an afterlife could have had personal 'evidence' supportive of their beliefs.  The 'accounts' could have been used to reassure others of their own beliefs which were more than likely the same.