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Started by Loffler, June 28, 2008, 11:24:04 PM
QuoteYES - at least in the Utilitarian scheme. The pain was minor compared with the yield - which is a tremendous (and medically measured) resistance to pain; as a result, I cannot be subjugated by the threat of pain.Here's an incident - where I had three toenails extracted with a needle nose pliers.I was placed in a very small room (claustrophobically designed) and strapped thoroughly to a stainless steel incline table. As a further matter of psychological warfare, the torturer was an attractive female, and the assistant was a very young and attractive girl (offend the sense of Mother/Nurturer). First, the toenail is split up the middle with a scissors, beyond the cuticle to the root, lest pull out the entire nail at once disjoint the toe - we save that for later.Then each half of the nail is ever-so-slowly extracted. I craned my neck to watch - the intention here is that I may - and it's surprising how much blood is lost.The saving grace was - the assistant freaked, and ended by squealing in the corner, hands over face, face to the wall, chanting ohmygodohmygod.This provided a good focus. I grunted here and there, but refused them any satisfaction - and won. The Torturer left in disgust.I have had cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine, and a host of others, and I say - Pleasure can be very, very bad. Pleasure can kill you, and make you kill others.
QuoteYES - at least in the Utilitarian scheme. The pain was minor compared with the yield
QuoteI have had cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine, and a host of others, and I say - Pleasure can be very, very bad. Pleasure can kill you, and make you kill others.
QuoteAny pleasure that distracts one from reality is bad - for reality is good. Pesky Utilitarianism!
QuoteYou think Pleasure is good but I say pleasure in having done good is better.
QuoteTry to live by avoiding all pain - and see what happens.
QuotePleasure and pain cannot be isolated, one can't be appreciated without the other.
Quote from: "Promethium147"Dearest sir:Before I begin, let me just say - that since we disagree on nearly every point, I have decided - I love you. You are my TrUe FrIeNd.I've wandered far to find a decent, stimulating scrap. These forums filled with people who agree and exchange SPAM recipes in one vast mental circlejerk bring me to tears.But this is Better'n Group Sex, Dewd. Bravo, Warrior.
Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"Point of clarification...I thought Hedonism was the belief that you should enjoy the pleasures that life had to offer, with the caveat that all things should be enjoyed in moderation?I thought Utilitarianism was the belief that when making a decision, you should choose the action that leads to the greatest amount of "good" for the largest number of people? What constitutes "good" is still open for debate. My understanding of Utilitarianism doesn't have anything specifically do to with pleasure, pain, or how people intepret the sensations.
Quote from: "Promethium147"- I'm sorry, but I thought that was precisely what you were doing, and I am a Mocker - trying to isolate the act per se as good or bad apart from an end, fer shame. In Ute, means are a COST. OH WAIT - what DO you mean? Utilitarianism means we assign the value of a specific act according to the value of the end less cost of means, "the end justifies the means" is how we say it nowadays (as if that's bad), Utilitarianism is about the Utility of an action regarding the achievement of an End value, cost/benefit analysis. That is called Planning. Planning is generally considered better than random action. Utilitarianism is about planning the Good.
QuoteI had poop - I made soup. I have developed an uncanny knack for turning the worst situation into biggest profit, yet another fine result.
Quote1) If it had been the pain without the result, that would be bad - for then I could be made to comply by merest threat of force. However, I was forced - drugged, awakening bound, and made best - the very best - of it. To make it work, intellect must be applied, emotional bias avoided - it is a learning process, this means repetition, repetition - and stone cold analysis.
Quote2) I think the result impossible without the pain. Again, it is learned - by repeated experience. Pain alone desensitizes us to pain consistently, anesthesia is not always available. If you would learn to beat pain, all by yer lonely without a fix, you must apply pain - and work with it, experiment.
QuoteWait a minute - how are you certain? Certainly the End without cost is best - but that's Perpetual Motion, something for nothing, effect without cause (uh, I guess God can do it, or so they say), and I don't believe in any of that - do you?
QuoteBut I am "there", and you are not, and I say It is Good, (cost)Pain + Result(gain) > Pain(initial). My dad always called it Deferred Reward. You are not in any position to be certain, and I am - quite certain about Me. Again, I say the result is unobtainable without pain itself, and thus the question Moot.
QuoteBut what drives the Astrophysicist, the Biologist, the Monk, the Sage - and the Utilitarian - in common?
QuoteThe desire to know Truth, which is Reality, to create a consistent, coherent structure of Truth upon which we may base our action, generating only Good thereby. Such labors expended, I assume the desired End in their sights is Good (to them).
QuoteFreedom = GOODOppression = EVIL
QuoteMe tired. I've been scrapping at TREMENDOUS length with Moderator, who dislikes suggestion of improving and expanding site by doing less as I donate money. I don't get it - No, he doesn't. He will only respond by saying Trolls are Bad, and therefore should NOT be better contained (?) or ever examined, and no one, anywhere, should have option of Troll Dissection and Experimentation. He won't address proposition, makes personal accusations, shakes fist, he actually got threatening - emptily threatening. What a dope. It is a Control / Ego issue, methinks.
Quote from: "Promethium147"OH YES you are - you just haven't realized it yet.It is possible to destroy this site quickly and completely - and openly - without breaking or bending a single law.It is not my intent to do that - but to preserve it, by anticipating this simple possible attack, and installing countermeasures.