Explanation for NDE's?

[Frostitute]

Why is it that only Atheists see hell when they have an NDE? There are so many possible stories.
Discuss amongst yourselves.

[curiosityandthecat]

[Titan]

Curiosity let me reiterate that you are my hero...

But I'm interested in the answer to this too. The normal answer I get from atheists is that NDE are the results of a flood of chemicals to the brain that cause it to go rather haywire.

[PipeBox]

Close enough, Titan.

As to why only atheists (and I'm not sure this is the case) get hit with a vision of hell, well I'd say we're likely to have a bad NDE when we realize we're having one.  Anyone, with even a fleeting concept of heaven and a god, seems to think they're going to heaven.  So, when they are dying and their mind is  exploring an NDE, when the person effectively thinks "Oh, I must be dead, I must be going to heaven," it should be expected that if that is what they honestly believe, that is what they will find.  Now, an atheist, on the other hand might get something more like, "Oh, I'm dead.  Wait, I'm dead and I'm still thinking.  CRAAAAAAAAAAP," and they get the nightmare version because then they wholly expect to get owned.  And my examples shouldn't be construed as to demand that the person know they are dead.

[strike:1qll5hcw]But I'm pretty sure it isn't just atheists that have hellacious NDEs.[/strike:1qll5hcw]  Strike that, if it is only atheists that have bad NDEs, then it certainly isn't guaranteed.  It would appear, by courtesy of a simple google search, that atheists aren't even doomed to bad NDEs.  See here: [urlhttp://www.near-death.com/atheists.html[/url]

If there's anything supernatural about NDEs, belief would appear not to be the metric on which we are judged.

**EDIT**

Yeah, on review of that site, it suggests a largely common NDE, where many aspects are shared, but the experience will vary on some points based on the individual.  And that is expected.  We all share a plethora of common features and we vary typically only in minor details.  This lends no weight to the NDE argument.  I have no doubt these folks are really experiencing this stuff, but that it isn't real.  People can have life changing experiences on acid, but those, likewise, aren't real experiences in some other realm.  And these folks know it's all upstairs afterward and still claim great insight.  I may even have an NDE when I go, if I should be so lucky.  It's gotta be the most pleasant way to die, being so comfortable, so sure you're in a better place, or that you've redeemed yourself from a fallen place, and then it ends.  And no one is aware that it ended.  It's a great way to cap off existence, is what I'm trying to say.

Anyway, the author of that site is a little too partial towards NDEs being true representations of reality for my liking, but the evidence they collected I'd guess is good, so long as you don't put too much weight on their interpretations of that evidence.  

[Titan]

Strike that, if it is only atheists that have bad NDEs, then it certainly isn't guaranteed. It would appear, by courtesy of a simple google search, that atheists aren't even doomed to bad NDEs.

Not at all, you're right. One of my friends, an atheist, had an NDE where he lost a massive quantity of blood and he had no NDE.

I think Christians need to be very careful in staking supernatural claims on things like this. There is a lot we don't know about the brain. The answer I got a while back was satisfactory, if I remember correctly, I just want to learn more if you guys know anything.

[Kyuuketsuki]

There is a lot we don't know about the brain. The answer I got a while back was satisfactory, if I remember correctly, I just want to learn more if you guys know anything.

Here's the bit I was looking for:

When you look at a computer screen you assume the screen is external to you but, because everything you perceive is merely data that have already entered your brain, what you perceive as external is a neurologically constructed model inside your brain of the real world outside your brain. The key point is you NEVER perceive the external world directly you only ever perceive second-hand "messages" from where it was processed into the three-dimensional model of the real world that you “see”. The things that you perceive as being the genuine articles "out there" are actually simulations of them inside your brain.

So you interact with the real world through a simulation and as long as that simulation is an exact analogy of the real world you do not experience problems. However when that internal model falls out of sync. with the real world the subject begins to experience problems and paranormal, insane or non-sober experiences result ... one only has to drink three or 4 beers to get a good idea of what this can be like.

Since the internal model is a construct it is obvious that other brain (possibly abnormal) activities can interfere with that model ... for example if the neurological program that places the “virtual” you in one location in the model places you in a different location in error an out-of-body experience might result.

“The location of your consciousness could appear to expand and engulf the entire world-model, resulting in a "cosmic consciousness" experience. Or, inside your brain's program, experiences like pain could be placed in a location outside your simulated body, such as in the perceived location an amputated leg used to be, resulting in a "phantom pain" apparently outside your body. In each example, only the parameters of a simulated body inside the brain are transcended, and thus the evidence of a spirit body disappears like a ghost.” Ian Williams Goddard, 1999

When assessing and understanding paranormal experiences such as out-of-body or past lives it is important to understand the nature of the data existing within our brains and the fact that it does not necessarily have to be the same as that in the real world. The real world is never directly perceived.

Objective evidence to date indicates that such paranormal experiences are unique to the subject and that the only changes occurring are with the subjects internal world model.

Objective observers tend to view such experiences therefore as personal and not related to the real world in any literal fashion and, quite rightly, dismiss them as such.

References
“Out Of Body Experiences” Ian Williams Goddard, 1999

It's more a possible (and I think very realistic) explanation for hallucinations than NDE's but interesting all the same.

Kyu

[karadan]

Ever hold your breath until you see stars? I just think it is an exaggerated version of the same phenomenon. Brain minus oxygen = hallucinations.

[PipeBox]

Ever hold your breath until you see stars? I just think it is an exaggerated version of the same phenomenon. Brain minus oxygen = hallucinations.

No, actually.  I can't, so far as I know.  Curious if anyone else can, I've held my breath on the outside of 1 minute 30 seconds when I'm calm and I get nothing.  But I can press in on my eyes until I see stars because the blood is being squished out of 'em.  Actually I can close them hard enough for that effect.  Anyway, I follow what you're saying.  Something isn't getting air.  

[Titan]

It's more a possible (and I think very realistic) explanation for hallucinations than NDE's but interesting all the same.

That sounds reasonable. It also illustrates how many mentally handicapped people view the world, or could view the world, and then proclaim that they are [fill in some fantastical being or religious figure].

[LARA]

Frostitute wrote:
Why is it that only Atheists see hell when they have an NDE? There are so many possible stories.
Discuss amongst yourselves.

Yeah, right.     C'mon, a statement like this has got to have some evidence to back it up.

[Kylyssa]

I've actually had an NDE.  It was quite pleasant.  I suspect it has something to do with whether or not your brain damage/shutdown situation causes endorphins to be released or not.  My NDE was kind of nonsensical, my Mom (who was very much still alive at the time) was there and it certainly fit neither the Christian imagery of heaven nor that of hell.  It was kind of a happy joy-joy fantasy wish fulfillment.  

The last real thing that happened was my realization of a punctured lung and mentally, mindlessly crying in terror for my mama.  So in my hallucination or whatever, there she was.  Not only was she there but she was in an idealized form, young and invulnerable unlike her actual frail and ill state.  The fantasy setting was in a fountain - an image taken from a particularly lovely childhood memory of playing in a fountain with my mama.  The hallucination was quite detailed and complex.  Anyway, the experience was quite intense and I can see how it would induce a believer to feel it validated their faith.  I think that there are few mental/emotional/biochemical cocktails as potent as the rush of still being alive combined with a pain endorphin induced hallucination which represents safety in the midst of mortal terror.  

I'm sure neuroscientists and neuropsychologists have better explanations but they boil down to the mind being a function of the brain and thus being prone to the occasional malfunction.

Sorry, no hell in my NDE.

[Kylyssa]

Why is it that only Atheists see hell when they have an NDE? There are so many possible stories.
Discuss amongst yourselves.

I think that it's more likely that the NDE's which get written about are those which support people's religious beliefs.  If someone has a nonsense NDE such as my own it simply won't make into the Big Book of Christian Proof.

[Wechtlein Uns]

Holy-- Dont scare me like that!!!

For a second there, I thought you had read some scientific study that might have said that all atheists reportedly had hellfire visions. That would suck.

But no, it's just more christian propaganda, isn't it?

[Tanker]

Are we talking about near death experiences or out of body experiences. I've been near death without visions, but never had an out of body experience.

[Kylyssa]

Are we talking about near death experiences or out of body experiences. I've been near death without visions, but never had an out of body experience.

I think they are referring to near death experiences with hallucinations.