Talmud Proof of Jesus the Messiah

[Asherah]

I have a couple of friends who think that the following should absolutely convince me that Jesus is really the son of god. I was wondering how members here would respond to this type of "proof" for Christianity.

Jesus died about 30 AD. The temple was destroyed in 70 AD. (40 years is a significant number in the Bible and is usually associated with a time of testing.) So, the last 40 years (prior to the destruction of the temple), the Jews wrote about four significant events that took place with regard to the temple and temple practices. Here is the quote from the Talmud:

Our Rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white; nor did the westernmost light shine; and the doors of the Hekal [Temple] would open by themselves, until R. Johanan b. Zakkai rebuked them, saying: Hekal, Hekal, why wilt thou be the alarmer thyself? I know about thee that thou wilt be destroyed, for Zechariah ben Ido has already prophesied concerning thee: Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars. - Yoma 39b

If it's not apparent from the quotation, here is a more complete description of each event:

1. The Lot for the Lord

During the annual day of atonement, Yom Kippur, two identical male goats were to be used for the removal and forgiveness of sins (Lev 16:5-10). The removal of sins required a scapegoat and the forgiveness of sins required a goat for the Lord. While the sins of the people were placed upon the head of the scapegoat which was led out into the wilderness to die; forgiveness came at the same time through the blood of the sacrificed goat for the Lord.

The casting of lots was used preceeding this occasion to determine which goat would be for the Lord and which goat would be sent to the wilderness. During the second Temple times, a white stone representing the goat for the Lord and a black stone representing the scapegoat were used for this purpose. There was always a 50/50 chance that the black stone would be selected in the priest's right hand. During the last 40 years before the Temple destruction (30 to 70 AD) the Talmud states that the black stone ALWAYS came up in the right hand. This would be equivalent to flipping a coin 40 times and getting tails every time. The probability of this happening is 240 = 1,099,511,627,776 or about 1 in 1.1 trillion.

The Jewish religious leaders rightly saw this as signifying God's rejection of the Yom Kippur ritual beginning in the year of Jesus' death in approximately 30 AD.

2. The Crimson Strap

The scapegoat otherwise known as Azazel was walked to the east side of the Azaryah (Israelite courtyard). Near the Nikanor (Beautiful) Gate, the priest leaned his hands (Semikha) on the goat "for Azazel" and confessed the sins of the entire people of Israel thereby placing all sin upon it. The people prostrated themselves when he pronounced the Tetragrammaton. While he made a general confession, individuals in the crowd at the Temple would confess privately. A red ribbon was then tied to the head of the goat and sent off to the wilderness (Lev 16:20-22). In practice, to prevent its return to human habitation, the goat was led to a cliff outside Jerusalem and pushed off its edge. If the LORD had accepted the offer of atonement, the ribbon would always turn white. If He did not accept it, the ribbon would stay red (Isaiah 1:18).

According to the Talmud, in approximately 30 AD, the ribbon stopped turning white. God no longer accepted this practice for the atonement of sin according to the Law because He had already fulfilled the Law and provided a permanent atonement for those willing to accept it in the Messiah's sacrifice.

3. The Western Light

One of the oldest symbols of the Jewish faith is the menorah, a seven-branched candelabrum used in the Temple. The kohanim lit the menorah in the Sanctuary every evening and cleaned it out every morning, replacing the wicks and putting fresh olive oil into the cups.

    Symbolically the menorah represented the creation of the universe in seven days, the center light symbolizing the Sabbath. The seven branches are the seven continents of the earth and the seven heavens, guided by the light of God. The Zohar says: "These lamps, like the planets above, receive their light from the sun" ("Beha'aloteka," beginning).

    The cleaning and refilling of the lamps, except the two most easterly, were performed by a priest every morning. If the priest found them extinguished, he relighted them. The two eastern lamps were left burning till after the morning service, and were then cleaned and refilled. The Western Lamp, was left burning all day and was refilled in the evening. It served to light all the lamps. The Western Lamp contained no more oil than the other lamps, a half-log measure, sufficient to last during the longest winter night; yet by a miracle that lamp regularly burned till the following evening. This miracle, however, ceased after the death of Simeon the Righteous, who was high priest forty years before the destruction of the Temple.

4. The Temple Doors

The Beautiful Gate (Temple Door) was said to have opened on its own every night for the last 40 years of the Temple's existence. The priests would constantly go and shut the gate back up again. This means that the doors started opening in the year 30 AD when Jesus of Nazareth was crucified during the time of the Passover. The opening of this gate was significant for two reasons. One reason is that after Jesus' death, all men (both Jew and gentile) who professed their faith in Jesus could come to God with no restrictions. The other reason is that this was another fulfillment of prophecy dating back to the Old Testament.

    "At the same festival (Passover)... the Eastern gate of the inner court of the Temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a base armored with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of it's own accord about the sixth our of the night." - Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, 6.5.3

Here is the website that got this info from. There is more detailed info if interested.

http://www.aaronscopeland.com/bible_articles/history/bible_history_talmud.html

Also, remember that the people writing of these events were not Christian, they were Jews.

So, my response to my friends is this: You have a hypothesis: Namely, that Jesus' death caused those four events to take place (assuming they took place at all). There seems to be two options: that Jesus' death was coincidental with those events, or that his death caused those events. So, how does one go about testing the hypothesis? You can't. Believing that these events were caused by Jesus' death is an article of faith. It cannot be tested and therefore cannot be proven.

What do you all think?

[Firebird]

So, my response to my friends is this: You have a hypothesis: Namely, that Jesus' death caused those four events to take place (assuming they took place at all). There seems to be two options: that Jesus' death was coincidental with those events, or that his death caused those events. So, how does one go about testing the hypothesis? You can't. Believing that these events were caused by Jesus' death is an article of faith. It cannot be tested and therefore cannot be proven.

What do you all think?

You pretty much laid out my argument right there. Point to a passage in the Bible and say that it proves something, and I'll say "How do you know it happened?" The scientologists claim DC-8 planes with rockets transported all of us to earth. Who's to say that's any more ridiculous a story than these? Who's to say the Bible is right and "Dianetics" is a bunch of crap? We can't know, because there's no way to test it as far as we can tell. We're just supposed to believe one over the other.

[DeterminedJuliet]

Interesting read, and I definitely agree with your assessment. Silly ol' logic, why can't you make made-up things true?!

[OldGit]

But is it not also written that the golden Shabbak uttered a great fart at the feast of Ph'tang, and that Rabbi Goldstein ascended partway to heaven on a flying gerbil before falling off and uttering the octagrammaton, a powerful curse.  These events seem to me to provide a powerful counter-argument.  Clearly the purveyor of the Schm'ttr never left the inner sanctum except to feed the parking meter.

[Too Few Lions]

It seems like a bizarre way of taking a tiny fragment of a fairly obscure text to try and create some 'proof' of Jesus being the 'Son of God'. I think there are a few glaring errors in this 'proof'...Firstly we don't actually have any concrete evidence that Jesus ever lived, never mind was crucified in the year 30 CE, that's total speculation. Even if we want to play along and accept a rough date of 30CE for his crucifixion, I think the word 'about' is important in relation to the 40 years. 37 or 43 years isn't 40 years and those numbers have no special place in biblical mythology.

Secondly the Romans destroyed the Jerusalem temple in the Roman-Jewish war, if its destruction was proof of the existence of any god, it was surely Jupiter and not Yahweh. It seems bizarre to suggest that Yahweh chose the Romans to destroy the only temple that he was worshipped in. It does appear to be cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

Thirdly the Babylonian talmud quoted was written in the 5th century in Mesopotamia (I think) so is clearly speculation itself written by people centuries later and hundreds of miles away, not eyewitness historical testimony to anything.

In the Bible there's a tradition of the priests of Yahweh putting their nation's mistakes and misfortunes down to their sin and disobedience to Yahweh as a way of trying to explain historical events, this just seems to be following in that tradition. How could Yahweh allow the Romans to destroy his temple? The answer from a Jewish perspective was that the Jews must have sinned and this was a punishment from their god, rather than the reality that it was a punishment from the Romans for rebelling. They would have had to have created a mythical history of sin that led up to the destruction of the temple, just like they did in regards to the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem and subsequent exile. I'm guessing that passage might be something along those lines.

Anyone who thinks that a short passage from an obscure 5th century Jewish text should convince you that Jesus is the 'Son of God' is living in a dream world, I think 'grasping at straws' is a more accurate appraisal of the evidence. The text that passage comes from is here

http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Yoma.pdf

It's clearly not about Jesus, it appears to be about claiming that certain historical rabbis prophesised the destruction of the temple, Johanan ben Zakai and Zechariah ben Ido.

[Asherah]

It seems like a bizarre way of taking a tiny fragment of a fairly obscure text to try and create some 'proof' of Jesus being the 'Son of God'. I think there are a few glaring errors in this 'proof'...Firstly we don't actually have any concrete evidence that Jesus ever lived, never mind was crucified in the year 30 CE, that's total speculation. Even if we want to play along and accept a rough date of 30CE for his crucifixion, I think the word 'about' is important in relation to the 40 years. 37 or 43 years isn't 40 years and those numbers have no special place in biblical mythology.

Secondly the Romans destroyed the Jerusalem temple in the Roman-Jewish war, if its destruction was proof of the existence of any god, it was surely Jupiter and not Yahweh. It seems bizarre to suggest that Yahweh chose the Romans to destroy the only temple that he was worshipped in. It does appear to be cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

Thirdly the Babylonian talmud quoted was written in the 5th century in Mesopotamia (I think) so is clearly speculation itself written by people centuries later and hundreds of miles away, not eyewitness historical testimony to anything.

In the Bible there's a tradition of the priests of Yahweh putting their nation's mistakes and misfortunes down to their sin and disobedience to Yahweh as a way of trying to explain historical events, this just seems to be following in that tradition. How could Yahweh allow the Romans to destroy his temple? The answer from a Jewish perspective was that the Jews must have sinned and this was a punishment from their god, rather than the reality that it was a punishment from the Romans for rebelling. They would have had to have created a mythical history of sin that led up to the destruction of the temple, just like they did in regards to the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem and subsequent exile. I'm guessing that passage might be something along those lines.

Anyone who thinks that a short passage from an obscure 5th century Jewish text should convince you that Jesus is the 'Son of God' is living in a dream world, I think 'grasping at straws' is a more accurate appraisal of the evidence. The text that passage comes from is here

http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Yoma.pdf

It's clearly not about Jesus, it appears to be about claiming that certain historical rabbis prophesised the destruction of the temple, Johanan ben Zakai and Zechariah ben Ido.

Great points! It irritates me that my Christian friends will bring this up but fail to mention the time period in which Talmud was written. But, then again, they probably didn't know any better. I guess when you want to believe something, you'll take any evidence which confirms those beliefs, without question.

Another point I came across last night was that the Jews had several events going on at the forty year mark prior to the destruction of the temple that they deemed the reason for the above mentioned events.

But is it not also written that the golden Shabbak uttered a great fart at the feast of Ph'tang, and that Rabbi Goldstein ascended partway to heaven on a flying gerbil before falling off and uttering the octagrammaton, a powerful curse.  These events seem to me to provide a powerful counter-argument.  Clearly the purveyor of the Schm'ttr never left the inner sanctum except to feed the parking meter.

LOLOL!! You are hilarious 

[Gawen]

If there were proof...evidence beyond a reasonable doubt...Christianity wouldn't be a faith based religion...would it?

[Stevil]

If there were proof...evidence beyond a reasonable doubt...Christianity wouldn't be a faith based religion...would it?

The act of looking for proof makes one a lesser Christian.

Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

The act of testing any godly evidence is in direct opposition of god's command.

You must not worship any of the gods of neighboring nations, for the Lord your God, who lives among you, is a jealous God. His anger will flare up against you, and he will wipe you from the face of the earth. You must not test the Lord your God as you did when you complained at Massah. You must diligently obey the commands of the Lord your God—all the laws and decrees he has given you. Do what is right and good in the Lord's sight, so all will go well with you.

You just ought to believe what you are told, no thinking required.
I would suggest that if your friends are offering proofs then they themselves are struggling with their beliefs. They must be otherwise they wouldn't be opposing their god's commands in this way.

[Beachdragon]

2. The Crimson Strap

The scapegoat otherwise known as Azazel was walked to the east side of the Azaryah (Israelite courtyard). Near the Nikanor (Beautiful) Gate, the priest leaned his hands (Semikha) on the goat "for Azazel" and confessed the sins of the entire people of Israel thereby placing all sin upon it. The people prostrated themselves when he pronounced the Tetragrammaton. While he made a general confession, individuals in the crowd at the Temple would confess privately. A red ribbon was then tied to the head of the goat and sent off to the wilderness (Lev 16:20-22). In practice, to prevent its return to human habitation, the goat was led to a cliff outside Jerusalem and pushed off its edge. If the LORD had accepted the offer of atonement, the ribbon would always turn white. If He did not accept it, the ribbon would stay red (Isaiah 1:18).

According to the Talmud, in approximately 30 AD, the ribbon stopped turning white. God no longer accepted this practice for the atonement of sin according to the Law because He had already fulfilled the Law and provided a permanent atonement for those willing to accept it in the Messiah's sacrifice.

Wait, so the idea that the ribbon magically turning from red to white while the goat is plummeting didn't make people skeptical?  And then we are supposed to believe that a magical act stopped happening because of another dubious magical act is proof?

I think it's more fun to read this after replacing the instances of the word Rabbis with the word Rabbits. 

[Asherah]

Bwahhahaha!!! 

[Sweetdeath]

That goat is one sly fox. He just exchanged the ribbon at Macy's.

[reddevil0126]

4. The Temple Doors

The Beautiful Gate (Temple Door) was said to have opened on its own every night for the last 40 years of the Temple's existence. The priests would constantly go and shut the gate back up again. This means that the doors started opening in the year 30 AD when Jesus of Nazareth was crucified during the time of the Passover. The opening of this gate was significant for two reasons. One reason is that after Jesus' death, all men (both Jew and gentile) who professed their faith in Jesus could come to God with no restrictions. The other reason is that this was another fulfillment of prophecy dating back to the Old Testament.

    "At the same festival (Passover)... the Eastern gate of the inner court of the Temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a base armored with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of it's own accord about the sixth our of the night." - Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, 6.5.3

Is it a coincidence?  A guy named Hero (Hero of Alexandria) who lived around 1st century AD invented a lot of scientific gadgets including world's first Holy water vending machine, steam-powered machine and wind-powered organ.  There is a story that he used the principle of steam/air expansion and contraction on temperature change to open and close temple door automatically when visitors were about to enter/exit.  Of course there was a Priest/servant who controlled water temperature behind the scene. 

It is sad that the scientific tradition and achievement of the ancient Greek was destroyed by the Romans and Christians. 

YouTube version of hero's automatic temple door:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzKhPZi8IuQ       

Hero of Alexandria and his works:
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm

[Ali]

In order to believe any of this nonsense, you have to already believe in all of this nonsense.  KWIM?

[Asherah]

4. The Temple Doors

The Beautiful Gate (Temple Door) was said to have opened on its own every night for the last 40 years of the Temple's existence. The priests would constantly go and shut the gate back up again. This means that the doors started opening in the year 30 AD when Jesus of Nazareth was crucified during the time of the Passover. The opening of this gate was significant for two reasons. One reason is that after Jesus' death, all men (both Jew and gentile) who professed their faith in Jesus could come to God with no restrictions. The other reason is that this was another fulfillment of prophecy dating back to the Old Testament.

    "At the same festival (Passover)... the Eastern gate of the inner court of the Temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a base armored with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of it's own accord about the sixth our of the night." - Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, 6.5.3

Is it a coincidence?  A guy named Hero (Hero of Alexandria) who lived around 1st century AD invented a lot of scientific gadgets including world's first Holy water vending machine, steam-powered machine and wind-powered organ.  There is a story that he used the principle of steam/air expansion and contraction on temperature change to open and close temple door automatically when visitors were about to enter/exit.  Of course there was a Priest/servant who controlled water temperature behind the scene. 

It is sad that the scientific tradition and achievement of the ancient Greek was destroyed by the Romans and Christians. 

YouTube version of hero's automatic temple door:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzKhPZi8IuQ       

Hero of Alexandria and his works:
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm

Wow, how interesting! Thanks!