I wanted to post this here to get criticism and comments. I am think that this my be the official Veridican creed of salvation. In other words, if a person can say this and truly believe it and mean it, they will be saved. Here it is:
This I do solemnly believe:
God is my Father, the Creator and substance of all things.
I was made to live out His will on earth, but I freely sinned, making myself imperfect in His sight, never to be reclaimed as I am.
From my descended state, I asked God to forgive what I had done that through His perfect grace and love I might be reborn into the light and spirit of Christ he sent to save us.
Therefore, I renounce my sin, and choose to live in the unity of Christ as I understand him through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
And in the name of Christ I pray:
Our Father, who is in heaven.
Hallowed be your name.
Your Kingdom Come
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who tresspass against us
Lead us not into temptation
But deliever us from Evil
For Yours is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory
Forever, and ever.
Amen.
This then I declare by faith and not by sight, that I am ascended with Christ, one with Him in spirit, perfected through forgiveness, sanctified in His Service, and chosen to continue for evermore in the Kingdom of God, passing from dark to light, death to life, and unto the salvation of my soul.
I certainly welcome any comments, suggestions, whatever.
Sounds like a slightly better worded version of every accept-Jesus-into-my-heart-prayer I've ever heard. Is there some new idea or concept you're trying to impart?
You're trying to convince yourself you believe in god, what's new besides the annoying blue text?
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 26, 2012, 06:20:45 AM
Sounds like a slightly better worded version of every accept-Jesus-into-my-heart-prayer I've ever heard. Is there some new idea or concept you're trying to impart?
No, not really. This seems to be in keeping with what Jesus laid out in the Gospel. I want to edit it some more for style and clarity and asthetics, but otherwise. I'm just looking for an accurate salvation creed.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on February 26, 2012, 07:05:01 AM
You're trying to convince yourself you believe in god, what's new besides the annoying blue text?
I think this creed pretty much assumes the existence of God.
...So why does a random Veridican (If mis-spelled, it's not on purpose) need and want salvation? What does (s)he need salvation from?
You'd probably get much better feedback on a religious forum...
Why use the pseudo-biblical English forms:
I am ascended This I do solemnly believe:;
I am descended;
unto? The language as a whole reeks of the KJ bible. Is that supposed to add to the mumbo-jumbo effect?
Quote... to live in the unity of Christ ...
What do you want that to mean?
Correct your spelling of
deliver.
Quote from: Asmodean on February 26, 2012, 08:00:51 AM
...So why does a random Veridican (If mis-spelled, it's not on purpose) need and want salvation? What does (s)he need salvation from?
Salvation from sin. Everyone who sins is a slave to sin, and those who die in their sin will either be destroyed or thrown into hell. The only way to be saved for eternal life is to become one with Christ. If one puts their faith in Christ, they confirm to God that they are worth saving for the next phase of existence.
But look at what that takes: The small amount of free will we have it seems has to be used to evaluate our imperfection and die to ourselves as we transform into the spiritual nature of Christ. Do you see the fundamental difference?
On the one hand is a person who is so blind they think they are fine the way they are. On the other hand is a person who can see that they are so far off the mark of Divine perfection that they do not warrant existence. Yet it is exactly the latter who are the ones chosen for eternal life. I am one of the latter type, but even after my salvation is assured, I still cannot stand my sinful imperfection, even though I know it doesn't stick to me anymore.
Jesus once said, and I paraphrase, "No one takes my life. I lay my life down so that I can take it up again." He was speaking of this very dynamic. The person who can kill themselves--spiritually speaking--in order to be transformed is the Christ dynamic if you will.
It's about perfection. If you can see it, you're the kind of person God wants for the next phase of existence, because you're someone who can see God. But if you can see it, you're like a seed that lays on the ground and fails to germinate.
Quote from: Thunder Road on February 26, 2012, 09:00:07 AM
You'd probably get much better feedback on a religious forum...
Not true. Not true at all. Look, I'll pay you all a compliment: You're smarter than most religious people. You think more. Many of you are better educated, even if you educated yourself--or maybe because you educated yourself.
Quote from: OldGit on February 26, 2012, 09:15:05 AM
Why use the pseudo-biblical English forms: I am ascended This I do solemnly believe:; I am descended; unto? The language as a whole reeks of the KJ bible. Is that supposed to add to the mumbo-jumbo effect?
Quote... to live in the unity of Christ ...
What do you want that to mean?
Correct your spelling of deliver.
At home, I will have my proper word processor (Word) to check spelling. But thanks. The language has to be fixed, I admit. And those words specifically, Ascended, descended, upon, and I'm not even going to keep "This I do solemnly believe." I'm going to cut it entirely.
Thanks for the input.
Quote from: Egor on February 26, 2012, 09:19:35 AM
On the one hand is a person who is so blind they think they are fine the way they are. On the other hand is a person who can see that they are so far off the mark of Divine perfection that they do not warrant existence.
And on third hand, you have a person who knows he's not perfect in oh, so many ways and doesn't strive to achieve that perfection simply because he doesn't need to.
QuoteYet it is exactly the latter who are the ones chosen for eternal life.
Working from an assumption that eternal life is indeed possible, I'd say it sucks for them. Pretty sure I'd get bored to the point of suicide in a matter of a few centuries.
QuoteI am one of the latter type, but even after my salvation is assured, I still cannot stand my sinful imperfection, even though I know it doesn't stick to me anymore.
Why can't you stand being imperfect? Take me, for instance: I suck at football. So what? I don't want to be good at football in the first place.
QuoteIt's about perfection.
Perfection is bullshit, being relative to the observer and every person or object of interest.
QuoteBut if you can see it, you're like a seed that lays on the ground and fails to germinate.
And thus, we arrive at my point: the seed doesn't care - why should we?
The wording is clear enough for me, although the third sentence seems a bit run-on-y, and the fourth sentence is a bit twistier than modern convention normally likes.
Other than that, I don't know what critiques and thoughts you are hoping for, since probably most of the people on this site probably find the content to be complete balls.
I think it's as full of crap as the original source material. Secondly, I believe you are entirely disingenuous in why you post it on an atheist forum. In this moderator's opinion, you are very close to what I'm going to call troll-preaching.
I don't buy for one second that you care for our genuine feedback. And besides, you don't need feedback from atheists. You need it from people who don't think your entire belief system is a fairy tale.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Quote from: McQ on February 26, 2012, 04:07:28 PM
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
...and walks like a duck and... Lays chicken eggs? ;D
Abracadabra, open sesame, bippity-boppity-boo.
Magic words are still the stuff of fairy-tales. There is nothing original, rational, or intelligent in your version.
Self-deprecating, unneccesary, it presupposes the consept of sin and apparently everyone is a sinner (even children?); and it is as unoriginal and redundant as any other creed of christianity which in itself was a knockoff of previous faiths.
Give me the Jedi creed anyday. ;D
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 26, 2012, 06:07:49 PM
Give me the Jedi creed anyday. ;D
Hah! At the end of the day, the only creed that matters to The Asmo is... Asmo's. :D
Quote from: Asmodean on February 26, 2012, 07:19:07 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 26, 2012, 06:07:49 PM
Give me the Jedi creed anyday. ;D
Hah! At the end of the day, the only creed that matters to The Asmo is... Asmo's. :D
This is true. :)
Quote from: Ali on February 26, 2012, 02:41:26 PM
The wording is clear enough for me, although the third sentence seems a bit run-on-y, and the fourth sentence is a bit twistier than modern convention normally likes.
Other than that, I don't know what critiques and thoughts you are hoping for, since probably most of the people on this site probably find the content to be complete balls.
Thank you. That's exactly the kind of input I'm looking for.
Quote from: McQ on February 26, 2012, 04:07:28 PM
I think it's as full of crap as the original source material. Secondly, I believe you are entirely disingenuous in why you post it on an atheist forum. In this moderator's opinion, you are very close to what I'm going to call troll-preaching.
I don't buy for one second that you care for our genuine feedback. And besides, you don't need feedback from atheists. You need it from people who don't think your entire belief system is a fairy tale.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
It's not preaching. I am looking for honest opinions as I think you can tell from my replies, and I've already made changes based on what Ali and Old Git have said, and my conversation with Asmodean has made me think very critically about what this creed says.
As for posting it in a religious forum, why? They would be reluctant to really criticize it. People in here will criticize it harshly. And that's what I need.
This is the board of your forum entitled "Religion." I am a member of this forum. This is my religion. I haven't told anyone to believe it; I'm in here answering replies, so I think you're pretty hard pressed to call it troll-preaching. If you don't want a theist as one of your members in this forum, then I guess you have the power to stop that. But you don't get to have it both ways: You don't get to have a public forum open to religious debate, courting religious debate, and then getting all upset when a religious person posts something religious.
Quote from: Asmodean on February 26, 2012, 11:31:17 AM
And on third hand, you have a person who knows he's not perfect in oh, so many ways and doesn't strive to achieve that perfection simply because he doesn't need to.
Well, yeah. That's called being unrepentant.
Quote
Working from an assumption that eternal life is indeed possible, I'd say it sucks for them. Pretty sure I'd get bored to the point of suicide in a matter of a few centuries.
I thought about that, myself, acutally, and sometimes find myself wishing for non-existence and not eternal consciousness. But when did God ever give us a choice in that regard, anyway? Maybe He knows something we don't about what's to come.
Quote
And thus, we arrive at my point: the seed doesn't care - why should we?
It's Pascal's wager, isn't it? It's "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" stuff.
Quote from: Egor on February 26, 2012, 09:20:52 PM
It's Pascal's wager, isn't it?
It is.
The whole wager is flawed, but that has been discussed to death and is beside the point, really. I don't think I would see any reason to bet at all even if it was solid in my book.
Quote from: Egor on February 26, 2012, 09:14:00 PM
It's not preaching. I am looking for honest opinions as I think you can tell from my replies, and I've already made changes based on what Ali and Old Git have said, and my conversation with Asmodean has made me think very critically about what this creed says.
As for posting it in a religious forum, why? They would be reluctant to really criticize it. People in here will criticize it harshly. And that's what I need.
This is the board of your forum entitled "Religion." I am a member of this forum. This is my religion. I haven't told anyone to believe it; I'm in here answering replies, so I think you're pretty hard pressed to call it troll-preaching. If you don't want a theist as one of your members in this forum, then I guess you have the power to stop that. But you don't get to have it both ways: You don't get to have a public forum open to religious debate, courting religious debate, and then getting all upset when a religious person posts something religious.
One. I'm not "all upset". Nice try though.
Two. I said you are very close to troll-preaching. Strike two on your attempt to mischaracterize what I clearly wrote.
Three. I disagree with you and stand by my initial assessment. I believe you to be disingenuous (and a fraud), so it had better matter very much to you what I think about your posts if you want to remain a forum member.
Four. You insinuate that I don't want theist members in the forum. Also wrong. Go ahead and PM any of the moderators or members here and ask them what my stance on theist members is. Another failed attempt by you to mischaracterize me or my own motives.
Now, what you need to do is prove to me that I've mischaracterized you. If you can do that, then I'll change my opinion of you. So far, all you've done is pretend as if you're interested so we'll go along with your posts. Do you realize that we also read your blog? It shows what you really think of atheists. It also shows that you're a liar, since you've yet to retract the lies from your December 29 post, which I called you out on in this forum. http://thebelieversrevolt.blogspot.com/2011/12/happy-atheist-forum-cant-hang.html
Get your act together Edward, and start being up front. My guess is that all you want to do is build up all of the criticisms that we have against your religion so that you can use them as fodder for your forum and book. That's fine, because we are more than happy to provide criticism of it. Just admit that's all you want to begin with. Keep trying to bullshit your way through and you'll find it rough going.
The irony in this thread is overwhelming. Religion is based on the belief in absolute truth, yet here we have the way to salvation put up to a vote? This is how the whole thing got started in the first place:
"Hey guys, check out my bitchin' poetry on god and life and stuff - do you think it's about right?"
"Way deep, bro! You should totally get this shit published. You'd be, like, famous."
Either this thread is proselytizing, or you lack conviction in your beliefs. Which is it?
Quote from: Egor
I certainly welcome any comments, suggestions, whatever.
Comment: Unsubstantiated assertions, all.
Suggestion: Learn to live on your own and for yourself and others instead of relying on unsubstantiated assertions.
Whatever: Read the Qur'an. It's the world's fastest growing unsubstantiated assertions out there. You wouldn't want to be 'left behind'...unless you take my suggestion.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 26, 2012, 11:59:38 PM
The irony in this thread is overwhelming. Religion is based on the belief in absolute truth, yet here we have the way to salvation put up to a vote? This is how the whole thing got started in the first place:
"Hey guys, check out my bitchin' poetry on god and life and stuff - do you think it's about right?"
"Way deep, bro! You should totally get this shit published. You'd be, like, famous."
Either this thread is proselytizing, or you lack conviction in your beliefs. Which is it?
+1 ^
Quote from: McQ on February 27, 2012, 01:54:56 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 26, 2012, 11:59:38 PM
The irony in this thread is overwhelming. Religion is based on the belief in absolute truth, yet here we have the way to salvation put up to a vote? This is how the whole thing got started in the first place:
"Hey guys, check out my bitchin' poetry on god and life and stuff - do you think it's about right?"
"Way deep, bro! You should totally get this shit published. You'd be, like, famous."
Either this thread is proselytizing, or you lack conviction in your beliefs. Which is it?
+1 ^
I'll be kind, and say maybe he lacks conviction. Of the 38,000 or so Christian denominations out there today, I'd say all 38,000 of them probably started off with "OK, I've got an idea. How in the hell do I get this thing off the ground?"
That being said, isn't starting your own brand of Christianity essentially saying none of the other variations are good enough for you?
I'd wager most people starting their own denomination, even if it's just a church of one, lack conviction/faith/confidence/trust in whatever it is they find the need to branch off from, at least. *shrug*
To the OP: if you're looking for feedback, I'd just say that based on the creed alone, there really aren't many significant differences between what you've got there, and what the Bible has to say. Congrats on a jazzed up logo, though. ;D
i don't have an opinion on the content of the creed because i think it's all pointless.
But...when you use the word "Earth" it is capitalized as a proper noun...the exception is when you refer to earth in the context of meaning ground/soil rather than the whole planet.
Quote from: McQ on February 26, 2012, 11:26:20 PM
One. I'm not "all upset". Nice try though.
Two. I said you are very close to troll-preaching. Strike two on your attempt to mischaracterize what I clearly wrote.
Three. I disagree with you and stand by my initial assessment. I believe you to be disingenuous (and a fraud), so it had better matter very much to you what I think about your posts if you want to remain a forum member.
If you can unilaterally end my membership, then do whatever you feel you have to do. You pop up and I guess you feel the need for power or to be bowed down to, maybe some hommage thrown your way, but I'm not the one to do that. I'm in your forum at your whim which is controlled by the providence of God. I'm not breaking any rules. Even you admit that right there in #1 and #2.
QuoteFour. You insinuate that I don't want theist members in the forum. Also wrong. Go ahead and PM any of the moderators or members here and ask them what my stance on theist members is. Another failed attempt by you to mischaracterize me or my own motives.
Now, what you need to do is prove to me that I've mischaracterized you. If you can do that, then I'll change my opinion of you. So far, all you've done is pretend as if you're interested so we'll go along with your posts. Do you realize that we also read your blog? It shows what you really think of atheists. It also shows that you're a liar, since you've yet to retract the lies from your December 29 post, which I called you out on in this forum. http://thebelieversrevolt.blogspot.com/2011/12/happy-atheist-forum-cant-hang.html
Oh, puhleez. That is so two-months ago. As for your opinion of me; I seriously doubt that's ever going to change. As to me being a fraud. I can't even figure out what you're talking about. Fraud in what way?
QuoteGet your act together Edward, and start being up front. My guess is that all you want to do is build up all of the criticisms that we have against your religion so that you can use them as fodder for your forum and book. That's fine, because we are more than happy to provide criticism of it. Just admit that's all you want to begin with. Keep trying to bullshit your way through and you'll find it rough going.
Hmmm. Well, I am trying to get your criticisms so I can fix problems in my own thinking, and sure, I'm dedicated to ending the atheistic influence in society, so I guess that is kind of an information gathering tactic. But I didn't think that was covert in any way. I think most people know where I stand on atheism.
In this case, however, I wanted this creed to be torn to shreds by atheists so that before I chisel it in stone, I have had to think through it very carefully. It is the salvation creed of Veridicanism, so it has to be right. And if I really want undiluted caustic opinions, I have to address atheists, not Christians. Christians would have just glossed over it. I posted it here for discussion, because Raving Atheists, wouldn't have even talked about it, they would have just made vulgar references about me. I have already been in Thinking Atheist for a bit, and I'm trying to let my posts in there cool off, and they don't have a dedicated "religion" board. You guys are fairly moderate and have a religion board. I could have posted it in CFI, I suppose. But again, they don't have a religion board.
That's as honest as I think I can be.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 26, 2012, 11:59:38 PM
The irony in this thread is overwhelming. Religion is based on the belief in absolute truth, yet here we have the way to salvation put up to a vote? This is how the whole thing got started in the first place:
"Hey guys, check out my bitchin' poetry on god and life and stuff - do you think it's about right?"
"Way deep, bro! You should totally get this shit published. You'd be, like, famous."
Either this thread is proselytizing, or you lack conviction in your beliefs. Which is it?
You don't have to agree it's true. In fact, that's the idea. Because you will think it's BS and eagerly point out why, I will get a perspective on it that is critical and forces me to think and defend it. It's not proselytizing. I don't expect atheists to believe this creed.
Quote from: Amicale on February 27, 2012, 02:06:28 AM
I'll be kind, and say maybe he lacks conviction. Of the 38,000 or so Christian denominations out there today, I'd say all 38,000 of them probably started off with "OK, I've got an idea. How in the hell do I get this thing off the ground?"
I think that's true.
QuoteThat being said, isn't starting your own brand of Christianity essentially saying none of the other variations are good enough for you?
I'm not a Christian. You may think I am, but I assure you the Christians won't. There are two groups I belong to. When
The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ hits Amazon in a couple of weeks, I will go in there to talk about Veridicanism and I will be almost immediately banned.
QuoteI'd wager most people starting their own denomination, even if it's just a church of one, lack conviction/faith/confidence/trust in whatever it is they find the need to branch off from, at least. *shrug*
Well, yes, I am not sure that Veridicanism is going the right direction. I'm still in the formation of the public version of it--if that's what you mean. But I'm sure of the stuff that is on my website at this time (veridican.com)
QuoteTo the OP: if you're looking for feedback, I'd just say that based on the creed alone, there really aren't many significant differences between what you've got there, and what the Bible has to say. Congrats on a jazzed up logo, though. ;D
I agree. However, it's not Christian. Even most Christians might not recognize that at first, but the very first line is not even describing the same God that is generally believed in within Christendom. In fact, its a version far more similar to Hinduism's Brahman. What Christians will mainly object to is that Veridicans don't use the Bible but use a so-called inspired dirivative of it. The respect for Christ may be the same, but most don't believe that they become one with Christ when they are born again (i.e., that they no longer exist spiritually, but rather have merged with the spirit of Christ). And then they hold a dualistic notion of God, not a monistic one.
Quote from: Whitney on February 27, 2012, 02:20:37 AM
i don't have an opinion on the content of the creed because i think it's all pointless.
But...when you use the word "Earth" it is capitalized as a proper noun...the exception is when you refer to earth in the context of meaning ground/soil rather than the whole planet.
Thank you. Yes, I typed that from my head here at work. At home I cut and pasted the actual prayer from the Veridican Gospel text.
One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 27, 2012, 04:25:29 AM
One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?
In James 1 verses 2 and 3, it says "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials (peirasmos), knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." The word peirasmos, the original greek, means either temptation or trial. So basically, the idea is that even though temptations or trials test the faith of a Christian and teach them patience, most people would just as soon ask God not to give them those kinds of trials, even if they'd maybe strengthen faith or give them patience. They'd rather ask God to deliver them from evil, which is the next line of the prayer. *shrug* I always took it to mean that someone praying it would sooner not go through a bunch of really rough stuff in order to be made stronger. Can't say I blame anyone who believes in God for asking him to spare them that, lol.
Sigh, you can take the girl out of the religion, but you apparently can't take the years of Bible study out of the girl...
At least, the word Asmo is in the word peirasmos, which means trial or temptation. Our Asmo ought to be pleased.
Quote from: Amicale on February 27, 2012, 05:18:28 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 27, 2012, 04:25:29 AM
One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?
In James 1 verses 2 and 3, it says "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials (peirasmos), knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." The word peirasmos, the original greek, means either temptation or trial. So basically, the idea is that even though temptations or trials test the faith of a Christian and teach them patience, most people would just as soon ask God not to give them those kinds of trials, even if they'd maybe strengthen faith or give them patience. They'd rather ask God to deliver them from evil, which is the next line of the prayer. *shrug* I always took it to mean that someone praying it would sooner not go through a bunch of really rough stuff in order to be made stronger. Can't say I blame anyone who believes in God for asking him to spare them that, lol.
Sigh, you can take the girl out of the religion, but you apparently can't take the years of Bible study out of the girl...
At least, the word Asmo is in the word peirasmos, which means trial or temptation. Our Asmo ought to be pleased.
I get that side of it, but I thought the traditional view was that Satan tempts us (or just our sinful nature), not that temptation is something we are deliberately lead into by God.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 27, 2012, 05:28:04 AM
Quote from: Amicale on February 27, 2012, 05:18:28 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 27, 2012, 04:25:29 AM
One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?
In James 1 verses 2 and 3, it says "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials (peirasmos), knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." The word peirasmos, the original greek, means either temptation or trial. So basically, the idea is that even though temptations or trials test the faith of a Christian and teach them patience, most people would just as soon ask God not to give them those kinds of trials, even if they'd maybe strengthen faith or give them patience. They'd rather ask God to deliver them from evil, which is the next line of the prayer. *shrug* I always took it to mean that someone praying it would sooner not go through a bunch of really rough stuff in order to be made stronger. Can't say I blame anyone who believes in God for asking him to spare them that, lol.
Sigh, you can take the girl out of the religion, but you apparently can't take the years of Bible study out of the girl...
At least, the word Asmo is in the word peirasmos, which means trial or temptation. Our Asmo ought to be pleased.
I get that side of it, but I thought the traditional view was that Satan tempts us (or just our sinful nature), not that temptation is something we are deliberately lead into by God.
Yeah, that part confuses me, too. Then again, this is the same God who messed with Job's life, family, etc over a bet with Satan. *shrug* :P
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 27, 2012, 05:28:04 AM
One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?
You'll never know this as an atheist, and you'd never believe it as a Christian, but the revelation of God we get from Jesus Christ is almost nothing like the revelation of God the Christian Church believes in.
Quote from: Egor on February 27, 2012, 06:20:39 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 27, 2012, 05:28:04 AM
One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?
You'll never know this as an atheist, and you'd never believe it as a Christian, but the revelation of God we get from Jesus Christ is almost nothing like the revelation of God the Christian Church believes in.
I was a Christian for most of my young life. I know how it is. And I'm not sure if that was meant as an answer to those questions, but it fell short.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 27, 2012, 06:23:33 AM
Quote from: Egor on February 27, 2012, 06:20:39 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 27, 2012, 05:28:04 AM
One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?
You'll never know this as an atheist, and you'd never believe it as a Christian, but the revelation of God we get from Jesus Christ is almost nothing like the revelation of God the Christian Church believes in.
I was a Christian for most of my young life. I know how it is. And I'm not sure if that was meant as an answer to those questions, but it fell short.
Sorry your disappointed. Answering questions directly is almost useless. If a person doesn't feel that they found the answer, they will never accept it. I'd rather lead you toward the answer than simply state it to you.
Quote from: Egor on February 27, 2012, 04:05:45 AM
If you can unilaterally end my membership, then do whatever you feel you have to do. You pop up and I guess you feel the need for power or to be bowed down to, maybe some hommage thrown your way, but I'm not the one to do that. I'm in your forum at your whim which is controlled by the providence of God. I'm not breaking any rules. Even you admit that right there in #1 and #2.
My goal is not to end your membership with this forum, and I would not feel compelled to do so without the consent of the moderating staff, anyway. Also, you guessed wrong. I have no need to feel those things. I'm doing my job as a moderator to prevent trolls, spammers, and disruptive behavior to a minimum. I don't need to explain myself further on this and you have been warned. Don't over assume such nonsense.
Quote from: Egor
It also shows that you're a liar, since you've yet to retract the lies from your December 29 post, which I called you out on in this forum. http://thebelieversrevolt.blogspot.com/2011/12/happy-atheist-forum-cant-hang.html
Quote from: Egor
Oh, puhleez. That is so two-months ago. As for your opinion of me; I seriously doubt that's ever going to change. As to me being a fraud. I can't even figure out what you're talking about. Fraud in what way?
Two months ago, yes. It shows that your stance hasn't changed since then, and that your pretended interest in having rational discourse with atheists is a lie. You lied about being banned here, and the reason why, you conflated your argument, and you did not retract it when it was shown you had done so. Fraud. Clear enough now?
You want honest opinions from members here, then start by being honest yourself. We aren't the ones who have consistently lied and obfuscated; you are.
QuoteGet your act together Edward, and start being up front. My guess is that all you want to do is build up all of the criticisms that we have against your religion so that you can use them as fodder for your forum and book. That's fine, because we are more than happy to provide criticism of it. Just admit that's all you want to begin with. Keep trying to bullshit your way through and you'll find it rough going.
Quote from: Egor
Hmmm. Well, I am trying to get your criticisms so I can fix problems in my own thinking, and sure, I'm dedicated to ending the atheistic influence in society, so I guess that is kind of an information gathering tactic. But I didn't think that was covert in any way. I think most people know where I stand on atheism.
In this case, however, I wanted this creed to be torn to shreds by atheists so that before I chisel it in stone, I have had to think through it very carefully. It is the salvation creed of Veridicanism, so it has to be right. And if I really want undiluted caustic opinions, I have to address atheists, not Christians. Christians would have just glossed over it. I posted it here for discussion, because Raving Atheists, wouldn't have even talked about it, they would have just made vulgar references about me. I have already been in Thinking Atheist for a bit, and I'm trying to let my posts in there cool off, and they don't have a dedicated "religion" board. You guys are fairly moderate and have a religion board. I could have posted it in CFI, I suppose. But again, they don't have a religion board.
That's as honest as I think I can be.
Good. If this is true, then it will show over time, and my opinion
will change, Edward. I don't care if you believe that or not, but that's the way it is.
Now, convince me you're being genuine in your purpose here and there's no problem. It's that easy.
Quote from: Egor on February 27, 2012, 10:17:51 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 27, 2012, 06:23:33 AM
Quote from: Egor on February 27, 2012, 06:20:39 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 27, 2012, 05:28:04 AM
One thing I've never quite understood about The Lord's Prayer is the line, "Lead us not into temptation". Why do we have to pray that God will not lead us astray? Why does God want to misdirect us?
You'll never know this as an atheist, and you'd never believe it as a Christian, but the revelation of God we get from Jesus Christ is almost nothing like the revelation of God the Christian Church believes in.
I was a Christian for most of my young life. I know how it is. And I'm not sure if that was meant as an answer to those questions, but it fell short.
Sorry your disappointed. Answering questions directly is almost useless. If a person doesn't feel that they found the answer, they will never accept it. I'd rather lead you toward the answer than simply state it to you.
There's the gaping abyss between the theist and the atheist - on this side, we don't "feel" our way to answers. We think them. We study them. We look for rationality. It's very simple - either you have an answer, or you don't. If you don't, you may speculate on what the answer might be. At least then we could discuss your hypothesis and determine whether it holds water.
I think that everyone has "gut" feelings that some answers might sound more plausible or reasonable than others. Even if we don't have all the answers, we sure have opinions about them. The only difference is that we don't take the supernatural in consideration as an answer to these questions.
Quote from: McQ on February 26, 2012, 04:07:28 PM
I think it's as full of crap as the original source material.
+1 Obviously we can help with the grammar and structure, and I hope we have. As for the content, stuff like gods, sin, redemption and eternal life are just mythological bullshit to an atheist.
Quote from: McQ on February 26, 2012, 04:07:28 PM
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
I think this is your biggest problem Egor, I don't see what's new in Veridicanism. It's just Christianity under another name, with a few minor changes based on your personal beliefs. A vanity project.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 28, 2012, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: McQ on February 26, 2012, 04:07:28 PM
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
I think this is your biggest problem Egor, I don't see what's new in Veridicanism. It's just Christianity under another name, with a few minor changes based on your personal beliefs. A vanity project.
What he said.
Quote from: McQ on February 27, 2012, 11:54:25 PM
My goal is not to end your membership with this forum, and I would not feel compelled to do so without the consent of the moderating staff, anyway. Also, you guessed wrong. I have no need to feel those things. I'm doing my job as a moderator to prevent trolls, spammers, and disruptive behavior to a minimum. I don't need to explain myself further on this and you have been warned. Don't over assume such nonsense.
Wait a minute! I've been warned about what? You said yourself I wasn't trolling! If trolling is even what you're talking about. What's your problem, man?
Quote
Two months ago, yes. It shows that your stance hasn't changed since then, and that your pretended interest in having rational discourse with atheists is a lie. You lied about being banned here, and the reason why, you conflated your argument, and you did not retract it when it was shown you had done so. Fraud. Clear enough now?
Whatever you want to make up in your head is your choice.
QuoteNow, convince me you're being genuine in your purpose here and there's no problem. It's that easy.
I think I'll just do what I feel. You do the same.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 28, 2012, 10:26:47 AM
I think this is your biggest problem Egor, I don't see what's new in Veridicanism. It's just Christianity under another name, with a few minor changes based on your personal beliefs. A vanity project.
But Christians would disagee. They don't believe God is monistic (vehemently) and they don't believe we become Christ in spirit when we are reborn. Christians would see Veridicanism as new age, and they have in the past.
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 05:30:56 PM
But Christians would disagee. They don't believe God is monistic (vehemently) and they don't believe we become Christ in spirit when we are reborn. Christians would see Veridicanism as new age, and they have in the past.
If it is your belief and therefore want in your creed that 'we become Christ' (in a more literal sense) then your words, at least to me, do not seem to fit this belief.
Quote from: Egor on February 26, 2012, 05:17:14 AM
From my descended state, I asked God to forgive what I had done that through His perfect grace and love I might be reborn into the light and spirit of Christ he sent to save us.
This, to me, speaks more of becoming perfect LIKE Christ or as God initially intended, but not literally BECOME CHRIST even in spirit.
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 05:30:56 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 28, 2012, 10:26:47 AM
I think this is your biggest problem Egor, I don't see what's new in Veridicanism. It's just Christianity under another name, with a few minor changes based on your personal beliefs. A vanity project.
But Christians would disagee. They don't believe God is monistic (vehemently) and they don't believe we become Christ in spirit when we are reborn. Christians would see Veridicanism as new age, and they have in the past.
There are over 30,000 versions of christianity out there. It is virtually guaranteed that there is some sect out there with similar doctrines.
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 05:30:56 PM
They don't believe God is monistic (vehemently) and they don't believe we become Christ in spirit when we are reborn.
I guess that means you've never read the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas; a very prominent Catholic theologian. He believed that the trinity referred to different aspects of one being (God) and that when one is 'saved' their spirit becomes one with Christ.
Of course, you do have to put away "concrete" thinking in order to understand the Catholic (and various other denomination's) view of the trinity without confusing it with polytheism. Aquinas certainly isn't an easy read.
OK, my turn.
Here is Stevil's Veridican Creed of Salvation
I am think that this my be the official Veridican creed of salvation. In other words, if a person can say this and truly believe it and mean it, they will be saved. Here it is: (Sorry, I stole the above from Egor. Naughty me. Also the below, I stole Egor's format, but most of the words are my own. The message is sincere and introspective)
Dad is my Father, Mum is my Mother, they created me through their passionate union.
I don't know if they made me intentionally or if I was simply a byproduct of lust but the fact is that I am here and I have no choice but to deal with it.
My parents don't need my forgiveness, they support and love me for who I am so that I might succeed in which ever journey I choose.
Therefore I will see the world of opportunities before me and go forth confidently without fear of failure, my life is that of my own making and my will is powerful enough to overcome the many obstacles that will impede my journey.
I thank my parent for their support, their efforts in raising me.
"Thanks Mum, thanks Dad"
Then I declare my journey is that of a student, to marvel at the world, the universe and the cosmos. From that which is small to that which is large. To accept others for who they are, to not pass judgment unless myself or loved ones are in danger. To become an accepting, non judgmental person whom sees the beauty in the diversity of people, cultures and countries. To support my family, my wife and children, to show them that I am always here for them to build up their confidence so that they can choose the journey of their desires. To live my life as an example to my family, to show my children that the world is their playground and that no obstacle is too large. To go forth confidently and optimistically and to live a life, my life however I see fit.
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 05:27:44 PM
Quote from: McQ on February 27, 2012, 11:54:25 PM
My goal is not to end your membership with this forum, and I would not feel compelled to do so without the consent of the moderating staff, anyway. Also, you guessed wrong. I have no need to feel those things. I'm doing my job as a moderator to prevent trolls, spammers, and disruptive behavior to a minimum. I don't need to explain myself further on this and you have been warned. Don't over assume such nonsense.
Wait a minute! I've been warned about what? You said yourself I wasn't trolling! If trolling is even what you're talking about. What's your problem, man?
Quote
Two months ago, yes. It shows that your stance hasn't changed since then, and that your pretended interest in having rational discourse with atheists is a lie. You lied about being banned here, and the reason why, you conflated your argument, and you did not retract it when it was shown you had done so. Fraud. Clear enough now?
Whatever you want to make up in your head is your choice.
QuoteNow, convince me you're being genuine in your purpose here and there's no problem. It's that easy.
I think I'll just do what I feel. You do the same.
If that's the way you want it. You got it.
First warning for not following the directions of a forum moderator. Second infraction will result in a temporary ban. Third will result in a permanent ban from the forum.
Isn't banning him exactly what he wants? Personally I think this guy should get the same treatment as the liar for Jesus instead of a ban. If he ramains a troll and douche (he will) then it becomes open season. Change his name, signature, etc... Mock him, make jokes about him, don't take him seriously (how could anyone, anyway?) but maybe he'll just run off on his own then and not get that weird satisfaction that he seems to enjoy from getting himself booted off of our forums.
But I'm no mod and wouldn't want to be. But if anyone is worthy of getting a no rules mockfest against him, I think it might be ol' eddy boy.
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on February 28, 2012, 07:17:07 PM
Isn't banning him exactly what he wants? Personally I think this guy should get the same treatment as the liar for Jesus instead of a ban. If he ramains a troll and douche (he will) then it becomes open season. Change his name, signature, etc... Mock him, make jokes about him, don't take him seriously (how could anyone, anyway?) but maybe he'll just run off on his own then and not get that weird satisfaction that he seems to enjoy from getting himself booted off of our forums.
But I'm no mod and wouldn't want to be. But if anyone is worthy of getting a no rules mockfest against him, I think it might be ol' eddy boy.
If you like that kind of behaviour go to Raving Atheist Forum.
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on February 28, 2012, 07:17:07 PM
Isn't banning him exactly what he wants? Personally I think this guy should get the same treatment as the liar for Jesus instead of a ban. If he ramains a troll and douche (he will) then it becomes open season. Change his name, signature, etc... Mock him, make jokes about him, don't take him seriously (how could anyone, anyway?) but maybe he'll just run off on his own then and not get that weird satisfaction that he seems to enjoy from getting himself booted off of our forums.
But I'm no mod and wouldn't want to be. But if anyone is worthy of getting a no rules mockfest against him, I think it might be ol' eddy boy.
I understand where you're coming from here. I do. It's tempting to let this go that way. But one of the things that has helped make HAF a bit nicer over the long haul, like it or not, has been moderating a little bit more strictly than elsewhere. I don't love doing it, but it's necessary, or else, as Stevil mentioned, we are just like Raving Atheist.
I've been concerned, and have mentioned it to the other mods, that we've been letting too much of it go on recently. In other threads, I'm trying to keep the name calling down and even worthless threads themselves from being created. It's not popular.
I'll bring up your point with the other mods anyway, just to make sure I'm not off track. Thanks!
I feel like if he wants to get banned, and we want to stay civil, the best thing to do is just ignore him. I think that's one of the first rules of dealing with trolls. Instead of using the ban hammer, which is what he wants, or feeding him to the Asmos, which he would win in his mind, we should just leave him alone to grow bored with his nonsense.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 28, 2012, 08:14:49 PM
I feel like if he wants to get banned, and we want to stay civil, the best thing to do is just ignore him. I think that's one of the first rules of dealing with trolls. Instead of using the ban hammer, which is what he wants, or feeding him to the Asmos, which he would win in his mind, we should just leave him alone to grow bored with his nonsense.
But on the other hand it is kind of funny to poke him and see what kind of crazy comes out next...
Quote from: Stevil on February 28, 2012, 06:44:09 PM
OK, my turn.
Here is Stevil's Veridican Creed of Salvation
I am think that this my be the official Veridican creed of salvation. In other words, if a person can say this and truly believe it and mean it, they will be saved. Here it is: (Sorry, I stole the above from Egor. Naughty me. Also the below, I stole Egor's format, but most of the words are my own. The message is sincere and introspective)
Dad is my Father, Mum is my Mother, they created me through their passionate union.
I don't know if they made me intentionally or if I was simply a byproduct of lust but the fact is that I am here and I have no choice but to deal with it.
My parents don't need my forgiveness, they support and love me for who I am so that I might succeed in which ever journey I choose.
Therefore I will see the world of opportunities before me and go forth confidently without fear of failure, my life is that of my own making and my will is powerful enough to overcome the many obstacles that will impede my journey.
I thank my parent for their support, their efforts in raising me.
"Thanks Mum, thanks Dad"
Then I declare my journey is that of a student, to marvel at the world, the universe and the cosmos. From that which is small to that which is large. To accept others for who they are, to not pass judgment unless myself or loved ones are in danger. To become an accepting, non judgmental person whom sees the beauty in the diversity of people, cultures and countries. To support my family, my wife and children, to show them that I am always here for them to build up their confidence so that they can choose the journey of their desires. To live my life as an example to my family, to show my children that the world is their playground and that no obstacle is too large. To go forth confidently and optimistically and to live a life, my life however I see fit.
Stevil, I just want to say publically that even though you and I have discussed a couple other concepts we might disagree on/not understand each other's thoughts on.... this post of yours here REALLY made me smile. I loved it a lot. Especially the last paragraph. It's awesome. ;D Thank you!
Quote from: Stevil on February 28, 2012, 06:44:09 PM
OK, my turn.
Here is Stevil's Veridican Creed of Salvation
I am think that this my be the official Veridican creed of salvation. In other words, if a person can say this and truly believe it and mean it, they will be saved. Here it is: (Sorry, I stole the above from Egor. Naughty me. Also the below, I stole Egor's format, but most of the words are my own. The message is sincere and introspective)
Dad is my Father, Mum is my Mother, they created me through their passionate union.
I don't know if they made me intentionally or if I was simply a byproduct of lust but the fact is that I am here and I have no choice but to deal with it.
My parents don't need my forgiveness, they support and love me for who I am so that I might succeed in which ever journey I choose.
Therefore I will see the world of opportunities before me and go forth confidently without fear of failure, my life is that of my own making and my will is powerful enough to overcome the many obstacles that will impede my journey.
I thank my parent for their support, their efforts in raising me.
"Thanks Mum, thanks Dad"
Then I declare my journey is that of a student, to marvel at the world, the universe and the cosmos. From that which is small to that which is large. To accept others for who they are, to not pass judgment unless myself or loved ones are in danger. To become an accepting, non judgmental person whom sees the beauty in the diversity of people, cultures and countries. To support my family, my wife and children, to show them that I am always here for them to build up their confidence so that they can choose the journey of their desires. To live my life as an example to my family, to show my children that the world is their playground and that no obstacle is too large. To go forth confidently and optimistically and to live a life, my life however I see fit.
This is wonderful. I declare myself a Stevil Veridican.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on February 28, 2012, 06:04:06 PM
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 05:30:56 PM
But Christians would disagee. They don't believe God is monistic (vehemently) and they don't believe we become Christ in spirit when we are reborn. Christians would see Veridicanism as new age, and they have in the past.
If it is your belief and therefore want in your creed that 'we become Christ' (in a more literal sense) then your words, at least to me, do not seem to fit this belief.
Quote from: Egor on February 26, 2012, 05:17:14 AM
From my descended state, I asked God to forgive what I had done that through His perfect grace and love I might be reborn into the light and spirit of Christ he sent to save us.
This, to me, speaks more of becoming perfect LIKE Christ or as God initially intended, but not literally BECOME CHRIST even in spirit.
Yes, we have abandon the idea that an indvidual becomes Christ, because Christ is singular and if one becomes Christ in the universal sense, then they are the totality of Christ. Rather, a person becomes one with Christ and one in Christ. They are reborn into the spirit of Christ.
Technically, that's not Christian. But I do conceed that Veridicanism could be seen by many to be a simple variation of Christianity. But I've been kicked out of a lot of Christians forums for being a Veridican and I've been called a heretic too many times to count.
QuoteThen I declare my journey is that of a student, to marvel at the world, the universe and the cosmos. From that which is small to that which is large. To accept others for who they are, to not pass judgment unless myself or loved ones are in danger. To become an accepting, non judgmental person whom sees the beauty in the diversity of people, cultures and countries. To support my family, my wife and children, to show them that I am always here for them to build up their confidence so that they can choose the journey of their desires. To live my life as an example to my family, to show my children that the world is their playground and that no obstacle is too large. To go forth confidently and optimistically and to live a life, my life however I see fit.
Can I please use this as a forum signature? :) It's just that awesome.
Quote from: Whitney on February 28, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 05:30:56 PM
They don't believe God is monistic (vehemently) and they don't believe we become Christ in spirit when we are reborn.
I guess that means you've never read the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas; a very prominent Catholic theologian. He believed that the trinity referred to different aspects of one being (God) and that when one is 'saved' their spirit becomes one with Christ.
Of course, you do have to put away "concrete" thinking in order to understand the Catholic (and various other denomination's) view of the trinity without confusing it with polytheism. Aquinas certainly isn't an easy read.
That's good. I'm glad I'm in company with Thomas Aquinas, but I don't think I'm going to run out and become a Catholic any time soon.
Quote from: McQ on February 28, 2012, 06:56:43 PM
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 05:27:44 PM
Quote from: McQ on February 27, 2012, 11:54:25 PM
My goal is not to end your membership with this forum, and I would not feel compelled to do so without the consent of the moderating staff, anyway. Also, you guessed wrong. I have no need to feel those things. I'm doing my job as a moderator to prevent trolls, spammers, and disruptive behavior to a minimum. I don't need to explain myself further on this and you have been warned. Don't over assume such nonsense.
Wait a minute! I've been warned about what? You said yourself I wasn't trolling! If trolling is even what you're talking about. What's your problem, man?
Quote
Two months ago, yes. It shows that your stance hasn't changed since then, and that your pretended interest in having rational discourse with atheists is a lie. You lied about being banned here, and the reason why, you conflated your argument, and you did not retract it when it was shown you had done so. Fraud. Clear enough now?
Whatever you want to make up in your head is your choice.
QuoteNow, convince me you're being genuine in your purpose here and there's no problem. It's that easy.
I think I'll just do what I feel. You do the same.
If that's the way you want it. You got it.
First warning for not following the directions of a forum moderator. Second infraction will result in a temporary ban. Third will result in a permanent ban from the forum.
I don't even know what directions you're talking about. So, what good is your warning?
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on February 28, 2012, 07:17:07 PM
Isn't banning him exactly what he wants? Personally I think this guy should get the same treatment as the liar for Jesus instead of a ban. If he ramains a troll and douche (he will) then it becomes open season. Change his name, signature, etc... Mock him, make jokes about him, don't take him seriously (how could anyone, anyway?) but maybe he'll just run off on his own then and not get that weird satisfaction that he seems to enjoy from getting himself booted off of our forums.
But I'm no mod and wouldn't want to be. But if anyone is worthy of getting a no rules mockfest against him, I think it might be ol' eddy boy.
There you go.
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 08:31:28 PM
Quote from: Whitney on February 28, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 05:30:56 PM
They don't believe God is monistic (vehemently) and they don't believe we become Christ in spirit when we are reborn.
I guess that means you've never read the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas; a very prominent Catholic theologian. He believed that the trinity referred to different aspects of one being (God) and that when one is 'saved' their spirit becomes one with Christ.
Of course, you do have to put away "concrete" thinking in order to understand the Catholic (and various other denomination's) view of the trinity without confusing it with polytheism. Aquinas certainly isn't an easy read.
That's good. I'm glad I'm in company with Thomas Aquinas, but I don't think I'm going to run out and become a Catholic any time soon.
I'll certainly understand if people would just as soon stay away from the reading itself, but if anyone does like medieval philosophy and wants to read some interesting stuff of Aquinas', Peter Kreeft did put out a book called The Summa of the Summa, which is a condensed/essential facts version of the Summa Theologica, and it does have a good section on the trinity. The Kreeft book got me through the two classes I took on Aquinas back in undergrad. It retained the ideas and a lot of the original language without the lengthiness of the original work.
Quote from: McQ on February 28, 2012, 07:30:34 PM
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on February 28, 2012, 07:17:07 PM
Isn't banning him exactly what he wants? Personally I think this guy should get the same treatment as the liar for Jesus instead of a ban. If he ramains a troll and douche (he will) then it becomes open season. Change his name, signature, etc... Mock him, make jokes about him, don't take him seriously (how could anyone, anyway?) but maybe he'll just run off on his own then and not get that weird satisfaction that he seems to enjoy from getting himself booted off of our forums.
But I'm no mod and wouldn't want to be. But if anyone is worthy of getting a no rules mockfest against him, I think it might be ol' eddy boy.
I understand where you're coming from here. I do. It's tempting to let this go that way. But one of the things that has helped make HAF a bit nicer over the long haul, like it or not, has been moderating a little bit more strictly than elsewhere. I don't love doing it, but it's necessary, or else, as Stevil mentioned, we are just like Raving Atheist.
I've been concerned, and have mentioned it to the other mods, that we've been letting too much of it go on recently. In other threads, I'm trying to keep the name calling down and even worthless threads themselves from being created. It's not popular.
I'll bring up your point with the other mods anyway, just to make sure I'm not off track. Thanks!
You're going to vaguely warn me and then actually consider that kind of behavior? I've been in a lot of forums: If you want traffic, you have to basically quit trying to moderate everything and just let conversations flow the way they will. Ban spam, and advertising, death threats, etc. But trying to direct conversations just makes a forum boring. If you don't want thesits in your forum, then don't allow them.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 28, 2012, 08:14:49 PM
I feel like if he wants to get banned, and we want to stay civil, the best thing to do is just ignore him. I think that's one of the first rules of dealing with trolls. Instead of using the ban hammer, which is what he wants, or feeding him to the Asmos, which he would win in his mind, we should just leave him alone to grow bored with his nonsense.
That's absolutely true. If people don't respond to my posts, I move on to another forum and start participating there. But you're going to have to be honest with yourselves and admit why when I post a minor thing about my own religion in a minor board on the forum, it suddenly explodes.
You all like the debate and you don't want to be bored.
Me, too.
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 08:42:53 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 28, 2012, 08:14:49 PM
I feel like if he wants to get banned, and we want to stay civil, the best thing to do is just ignore him. I think that's one of the first rules of dealing with trolls. Instead of using the ban hammer, which is what he wants, or feeding him to the Asmos, which he would win in his mind, we should just leave him alone to grow bored with his nonsense.
That's absolutely true. If people don't respond to my posts, I move on to another forum and start participating there. But you're going to have to be honest with yourselves and admit why when I post a minor thing about my own religion in a minor board on the forum, it suddenly explodes.
You all like the debate and you don't want to be bored.
Me, too.
You're definitely the light entertainment :D
Egor is right...it gets pretty quiet in here without a theist to beat up on. I'm actually most interested in these types of threads because at the end of it, we all want to understand one another.
I don't like it however when it descends into snark and sarcasm. I think we owe it to one another to be open and honest. Honesty is compromised when people feel threatened.
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 08:42:53 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 28, 2012, 08:14:49 PM
I feel like if he wants to get banned, and we want to stay civil, the best thing to do is just ignore him. I think that's one of the first rules of dealing with trolls. Instead of using the ban hammer, which is what he wants, or feeding him to the Asmos, which he would win in his mind, we should just leave him alone to grow bored with his nonsense.
That's absolutely true. If people don't respond to my posts, I move on to another forum and start participating there. But you're going to have to be honest with yourselves and admit why when I post a minor thing about my own religion in a minor board on the forum, it suddenly explodes.
You all like the debate and you don't want to be bored.
Me, too.
I wouldn't belong to an atheist forum that completely excluded theists, just like if I were still theistic, I wouldn't belong to a theist forum that completely excluded atheists. I like and enjoy the necessary spice of difference. Even if we've heard the arguments hundreds of times before, still, at least it means we're talking to someone with a different viewpoint. Always good, if we want to refine our own viewpoints in the process. I do enjoy some debate, and nope, I don't want to get bored.
But mostly I enjoy an honest give and take, a respectful dialogue, a process that attempts to build respect between two groups rather than one that starts fights or gives fellow posters and moderators headaches and grief. Once I see a conversation heading away from community and towards a fight just for the sake of one, that's when I tend to start to tune out and turn off, as it were.
Egor have you changed your approach to discussion on atheist forums? Your approach has seemed to have changed drastically as of late. Originally I couldn't stand reading your posts but now they seem like your actually trying to have some sort of conversation rather than aggravate people.
Quote from: Twentythree on February 28, 2012, 08:48:28 PM
I don't like it however when it descends into snark and sarcasm. I think we owe it to one another to be open and honest. Honesty is compromised when people feel threatened.
Quote from: Twentythree on February 28, 2012, 08:45:59 PM
Egor is right...it gets pretty quiet in here without a theist to beat up on. I'm actually most interested in these types of threads because at the end of it, we all want to understand one another.
Well said.
Quote from: Crow on February 28, 2012, 09:08:44 PM
Egor have you changed your approach to discussion on atheist forums? Your approach has seemed to have changed drastically as of late. Originally I couldn't stand reading your posts but now they seem like your actually trying to have some sort of conversation rather than aggravate people.
I'm starting to find anger self-defeating. :-\
And I'm starting to see something I've never seen before, not just in the forums but in life as well: that if a person really is one with Christ, at some point, it has to start looking like it.
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 09:58:54 PM
Quote from: Crow on February 28, 2012, 09:08:44 PM
Egor have you changed your approach to discussion on atheist forums? Your approach has seemed to have changed drastically as of late. Originally I couldn't stand reading your posts but now they seem like your actually trying to have some sort of conversation rather than aggravate people.
I'm starting to find anger self-defeating. :-\
And I'm starting to see something I've never seen before, not just in the forums but in life as well: that if a person really is one with Christ, at some point, it has to start looking like it.
:) If you've realized that walking the walk is just as or more important than talking the talk, I'd say you've got one up on others who pay their ideas lip service, but don't back those words up with action. Good stuff...
Quote from: Amicale on February 28, 2012, 10:01:34 PM
:) If you've realized that walking the walk is just as or more important than talking the talk, I'd say you've got one up on others who pay their ideas lip service, but don't back those words up with action. Good stuff...
I second this sentiment.
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 08:39:54 PM
Quote from: McQ on February 28, 2012, 07:30:34 PM
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on February 28, 2012, 07:17:07 PM
Isn't banning him exactly what he wants? Personally I think this guy should get the same treatment as the liar for Jesus instead of a ban. If he ramains a troll and douche (he will) then it becomes open season. Change his name, signature, etc... Mock him, make jokes about him, don't take him seriously (how could anyone, anyway?) but maybe he'll just run off on his own then and not get that weird satisfaction that he seems to enjoy from getting himself booted off of our forums.
But I'm no mod and wouldn't want to be. But if anyone is worthy of getting a no rules mockfest against him, I think it might be ol' eddy boy.
I understand where you're coming from here. I do. It's tempting to let this go that way. But one of the things that has helped make HAF a bit nicer over the long haul, like it or not, has been moderating a little bit more strictly than elsewhere. I don't love doing it, but it's necessary, or else, as Stevil mentioned, we are just like Raving Atheist.
I've been concerned, and have mentioned it to the other mods, that we've been letting too much of it go on recently. In other threads, I'm trying to keep the name calling down and even worthless threads themselves from being created. It's not popular.
I'll bring up your point with the other mods anyway, just to make sure I'm not off track. Thanks!
You're going to vaguely warn me and then actually consider that kind of behavior? I've been in a lot of forums: If you want traffic, you have to basically quit trying to moderate everything and just let conversations flow the way they will. Ban spam, and advertising, death threats, etc. But trying to direct conversations just makes a forum boring. If you don't want thesits in your forum, then don't allow them.
You weren't "vaguely" warned. Again, you ignored what was written in favor of your own version of what was written. One more time, said in a different way:
If you are here to engage in actual honest discussion, then you don't have a problem. If you are not, then you will be shown the door. Doesn't matter if your are a theist or not. Same thing applies to everyone.
As I said, you need to be convincing that you are here for the actual purpose you now claim, rather than to simply gather info that you can later use to post on your blog as some kind of "atheist failure" or who-knows-what. Because that's why I think you're here. Again, simple. Read no more into it than that, because that's all there is. Don't know how many ways I can say the same thing.
If you think you can do that, and not continue to dicker with me about it, you again, have no problem.
Clear enough?
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 09:58:54 PM
Quote from: Crow on February 28, 2012, 09:08:44 PM
Egor have you changed your approach to discussion on atheist forums? Your approach has seemed to have changed drastically as of late. Originally I couldn't stand reading your posts but now they seem like your actually trying to have some sort of conversation rather than aggravate people.
I'm starting to find anger self-defeating. :-\
And I'm starting to see something I've never seen before, not just in the forums but in life as well: that if a person really is one with Christ, at some point, it has to start looking like it.
good on you Egor, anger is self defeating. From a non-Christian (or non-Veridican!) standpoint, there's an old saying that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. I've never tried it in reality to find out if it's actually true or not, but it's a nice saying, and the metaphor works.
Quote from: Amicale on February 28, 2012, 10:01:34 PM
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 09:58:54 PM
Quote from: Crow on February 28, 2012, 09:08:44 PM
Egor have you changed your approach to discussion on atheist forums? Your approach has seemed to have changed drastically as of late. Originally I couldn't stand reading your posts but now they seem like your actually trying to have some sort of conversation rather than aggravate people.
I'm starting to find anger self-defeating. :-\
And I'm starting to see something I've never seen before, not just in the forums but in life as well: that if a person really is one with Christ, at some point, it has to start looking like it.
:) If you've realized that walking the walk is just as or more important than talking the talk, I'd say you've got one up on others who pay their ideas lip service, but don't back those words up with action. Good stuff...
Thanks.
Quote from: McQ on February 28, 2012, 10:18:36 PM
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 08:39:54 PM
Quote from: McQ on February 28, 2012, 07:30:34 PM
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on February 28, 2012, 07:17:07 PM
Isn't banning him exactly what he wants? Personally I think this guy should get the same treatment as the liar for Jesus instead of a ban. If he ramains a troll and douche (he will) then it becomes open season. Change his name, signature, etc... Mock him, make jokes about him, don't take him seriously (how could anyone, anyway?) but maybe he'll just run off on his own then and not get that weird satisfaction that he seems to enjoy from getting himself booted off of our forums.
But I'm no mod and wouldn't want to be. But if anyone is worthy of getting a no rules mockfest against him, I think it might be ol' eddy boy.
I understand where you're coming from here. I do. It's tempting to let this go that way. But one of the things that has helped make HAF a bit nicer over the long haul, like it or not, has been moderating a little bit more strictly than elsewhere. I don't love doing it, but it's necessary, or else, as Stevil mentioned, we are just like Raving Atheist.
I've been concerned, and have mentioned it to the other mods, that we've been letting too much of it go on recently. In other threads, I'm trying to keep the name calling down and even worthless threads themselves from being created. It's not popular.
I'll bring up your point with the other mods anyway, just to make sure I'm not off track. Thanks!
You're going to vaguely warn me and then actually consider that kind of behavior? I've been in a lot of forums: If you want traffic, you have to basically quit trying to moderate everything and just let conversations flow the way they will. Ban spam, and advertising, death threats, etc. But trying to direct conversations just makes a forum boring. If you don't want thesits in your forum, then don't allow them.
You weren't "vaguely" warned. Again, you ignored what was written in favor of your own version of what was written. One more time, said in a different way:
If you are here to engage in actual honest discussion, then you don't have a problem. If you are not, then you will be shown the door. Doesn't matter if your are a theist or not. Same thing applies to everyone.
As I said, you need to be convincing that you are here for the actual purpose you now claim, rather than to simply gather info that you can later use to post on your blog as some kind of "atheist failure" or who-knows-what. Because that's why I think you're here. Again, simple. Read no more into it than that, because that's all there is. Don't know how many ways I can say the same thing.
If you think you can do that, and not continue to dicker with me about it, you again, have no problem.
Clear enough?
Well, not really. Because I don't know how you can command someone to be more convincing, or warn them into it. But I won't dicker with you about it anymore.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 28, 2012, 10:51:29 PM
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 09:58:54 PM
Quote from: Crow on February 28, 2012, 09:08:44 PM
Egor have you changed your approach to discussion on atheist forums? Your approach has seemed to have changed drastically as of late. Originally I couldn't stand reading your posts but now they seem like your actually trying to have some sort of conversation rather than aggravate people.
I'm starting to find anger self-defeating. :-\
And I'm starting to see something I've never seen before, not just in the forums but in life as well: that if a person really is one with Christ, at some point, it has to start looking like it.
good on you Egor, anger is self defeating. From a non-Christian (or non-Veridican!) standpoint, there's an old saying that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. I've never tried it in reality to find out if it's actually true or not, but it's a nice saying, and the metaphor works.
Thanks.
Now as for this string, I'm ducking out. The final version of the
Veridican Creed of Salvation is up on my blog for whoever wants to read it. I don't want to post it in here because I just want out of this thread and to move on to something else, and I'm not sure McQ's heart could take it. His finger is already shaking over the ban button.
So, Hasta for now.
I hope that's not the case (the big red button bit). I don't know if you've ever read any Rumi or other Sufi philosophy, your mystical monist take on Christianity reminds me a bit of their writings. Let us know how things go on the Christian forums when you post your creed on them.
Quote from: Egor on February 28, 2012, 11:26:47 PM
Now as for this string, I'm ducking out. The final version of the Veridican Creed of Salvation is up on my blog for whoever wants to read it. I don't want to post it in here because I just want out of this thread and to move on to something else, and I'm not sure McQ's heart could take it. His finger is already shaking over the ban button.
So, Hasta for now.
Running this through Stevil's Truth Translator (STT)
Now that I have raised my profile here and generated some discussion between myself and others, I need to move onto the next step of my cunning plan.
Step 2.
Rather than conclude this discussion here where I started it, I would like to continue this discussion on my own forum. This way people interested in this conversation will go onto my forum and thus generate some activity over there.
This is not the first time I have attempted this on the HAF, the first time is when I stated that I needed to concentrate on my book, and at that time told people interested in continuing a conversation with me that I would be available on my own forum. But that didn't seem to work so I came back to HAF, as I have done to other atheist forums (without having finished my book) in an attempt to get people onto my forum.
The excuses I use when leaving mid conversation are not contrary to my desire to be Christ like, because they are little white lies and hence don't really count as being dishonest or deceitful, I am sure JC will forgive me.
It's not that at all. If McQ says I can post the finished creed here, I'll do it, but I don't want to risk being banned for it. And the book is finished. It's a the printers now and I'm waiting for a proof copy before "announcing" it.
Quote from: Egor on February 29, 2012, 08:31:11 AM
It's not that at all. If McQ says I can post the finished creed here, I'll do it, but I don't want to risk being banned for it. And the book is finished. It's a the printers now and I'm waiting for a proof copy before "announcing" it.
Well, good for you Egor. That's quite an achievement, writing a book.
It is easy to continue being a HAF member though, just be civil to the other members.
Oh, and listen to the Admins, they are quite reasonable people.
Quote from: Amicale on February 28, 2012, 08:21:19 PM
Stevil, I just want to say publically that even though you and I have discussed a couple other concepts we might disagree on/not understand each other's thoughts on.... this post of yours here REALLY made me smile. I loved it a lot. Especially the last paragraph. It's awesome. ;D Thank you!
Thanks Amicale, see, I'm not always a crazy disagreeable looney.
Sometimes, what I say does make coherent sense. :o
Sometimes. :-[
On rare occasions. :'(
You, on the other hand, almost always make sense :-*. For that I pity you ;D, but have no doubt, if you stick around here long enough you will be able to break the thought walls within which your mind is trapped, just like me you will truly become a free thinker ???.
Ooops :-X, sorry, don't mean to scare you off.
Quote from: Stevil on February 29, 2012, 09:15:21 AM
Quote from: Amicale on February 28, 2012, 08:21:19 PM
Stevil, I just want to say publically that even though you and I have discussed a couple other concepts we might disagree on/not understand each other's thoughts on.... this post of yours here REALLY made me smile. I loved it a lot. Especially the last paragraph. It's awesome. ;D Thank you!
Thanks Amicale, see, I'm not always a crazy disagreeable looney.
Sometimes, what I say does make coherent sense. :o
Sometimes. :-[
On rare occasions. :'(
You, on the other hand, almost always make sense :-*. For that I pity you ;D, but have no doubt, if you stick around here long enough you will be able to break the thought walls within which your mind is trapped, just like me you will truly become a free thinker ???.
Ooops :-X, sorry, don't mean to scare you off.
:D I've never thought you were a crazy disagreeable loony. I like you. No, It's more like sitting down for coffee with someone, and them saying "I've got this idea most people don't understand, but here goes" and then taking the next long while to try and wrap your head around it. But you don't mind doing it, if you know the other person has some other ideas that are really great, that you can totally understand. That's how it is for me with you -- most of your ideas do make sense to me, I enjoy talking with you on here, it's just the odd one I can't wrap my head around but hey, I'll chalk that up to an issue with MY brain, not yours. ;)
Diversity of opinion makes life more fun. ;D