Yerterday Oslo, the capital of Norway, was attacked by a bomb blast in it's government quarter, and a subsequent shooting at a Workers League youth convention.
At present the two attacks have cost the lives of 91 persons who are confirmed dead. People are still missing and the number is expected to climb.
A right wing extremist has been arrested as the shooter at the convention, and is also believed to be involved in the placing of te explosive device in Oslo.
Thos thread is open for thoughts about the attack and declerations of support for the victims and their families.
What can you say ....
Oh, no! Not again.
We've got radio announcers who stoke resentment and hate, it's all kind of main stream.
I recall Obama having something to say when Gabrielle Giffords was shot about the shit people were peddling.
Maybe the Norway's lune got his call to act from secret internet pals, maybe not.
I hope that none of our Norwegian members are not directly effected by this.
I hope the Norwegian people don't take the actions of one nut case to heart and change their independent world view.
My heart goes out to the folks affected by yet another horror on this poor planet
Every time I think I can lift the shades and look out the window lately.. I want to pull them down again...
good conscience we can not do this ..
Our world is worth saving for the future
Some one at my work commented when this happened
"see? Damn Muslum terrorists a Christian would not do that"
Even before they figured it out all I could say to him "do you actually hear the words coming out of your
mouth?" he is convinced only in ancient time did Christians make what he calls a "few" mistakes...he thinks Ireland...Bosnia...ect..ect...all. "misinfo" as he calls i..."liberal propaganda". Sad part..while this is one guy ..it is a common (scary to me) thought...
I may have to take a guilt riddled news black out this weekend...between Somalia...oh Hell...it is all too much and how do we help?
Thiests are lucky feeling they can help by prayer...personally during times like this I think prayers are a complete cop out...pony up damn it!
Quote from: Hidelight on July 23, 2011, 04:16:47 PM
My heart goes out to the folks affected by yet another horror on this poor planet
Every time I think I can lift the shades and look out the window lately.. I want to pull them down again...
good conscience we can not do this ..
Our world is worth saving for the future
Some one at my work commented when this happened
"see? Damn Muslum terrorists a Christian would not do that"
Even before they figured it out all I could say to him "do you actually hear the words coming out of your
mouth?" he is convinced only in ancient time did Christians make what he calls a "few" mistakes...he thinks Ireland...Bosnia...ect..ect...all. "misinfo" as he calls i..."liberal propaganda". Sad part..while this is one guy ..it is a common (scary to me) thought...
I may have to take a guilt riddled news black out this weekend...between Somalia...oh Hell...it is all too much and how do we help?
Thiests are lucky feeling they can help by prayer...personally during times like this I think prayers are a complete cop out...pony up damn it!
Billions of people are good to each other every day, it may not be news worthy but it happens.
A friend of mine got cut up by the flying glass... He's ok. A lot of people are not.
That said, everyone else gets angry islamists and we are, apparently, being attacked by nationalist-Christian-whatevers... Can't even do that right ???
THAT said, it's as close to business as usual as possible today and that I like. Even yesterday, there was no great big panic or anything like that. Good.
...And that is pretty much all I have to say about it. It's a tragedy, but it can not be undone... So moving on is pretty much the only thing one can do.
Was this yet another muslim extremist attack???
I seriously hurt so much when innocent people die... This truly frightens me...
It is news like this that further proves there is no fucking God, so these idiots need to stop praying, and attempt to STOP insane people like this from murdering innocents... Fucking damn it. *sighs* ...
I'm glad to hear your friend is doing alright, Asmodean.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 24, 2011, 05:51:32 AM
Was this yet another muslim extremist attack???
No it wasn't a Muslim-, but a wacko, Christian nationalist attack.
Apparently the psycho is being extremely cooperative with the police. He obviously intends to make sure as many people as possible listen to his message. Norwegian neo-nazis and extreme right wingers now have a hero and a focus. And unlike Bin Laden this guy will die a natural death possibly 40 to 50 years from now. Right now he has the attention of the world and he is going to play this for all that it is worth.
This guy has made a statement that may become the spark for European anti-muslim extremism.
Definitely a psychopath and an extremely intelligent man.
I don't know if this is true but Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami (Assistants of the Global Jihad) claims to have initiated these violent attacks.
http://www.norwaynews.com/en/~view.php?72Ta854RM4482bB285Gpm844QL3884V076CFo453Q6I8
edit: Added the word "know"
Quote from: wildfire_emissary on July 24, 2011, 09:43:05 AM
I don't if this is true but Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami (Assistants of the Global Jihad) claims to have initiated these violent attacks.
http://www.norwaynews.com/en/~view.php?72Ta854RM4482bB285Gpm844QL3884V076CFo453Q6I8
This has been retracted, and the perpetrator has been caught. Like the others have said, right-wing christian nazi wannabe.
Quote from: Guardian85 on July 24, 2011, 12:12:55 PM
Quote from: wildfire_emissary on July 24, 2011, 09:43:05 AM
I don't if this is true but Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami (Assistants of the Global Jihad) claims to have initiated these violent attacks.
http://www.norwaynews.com/en/~view.php?72Ta854RM4482bB285Gpm844QL3884V076CFo453Q6I8
This has been retracted, and the perpetrator has been caught. Like the others have said, right-wing christian nazi wannabe.
Bringing back the crusades, hm?
Quote from: Guardian85 on July 24, 2011, 12:12:55 PM
Quote from: wildfire_emissary on July 24, 2011, 09:43:05 AM
I don't if this is true but Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami (Assistants of the Global Jihad) claims to have initiated these violent attacks.
http://www.norwaynews.com/en/~view.php?72Ta854RM4482bB285Gpm844QL3884V076CFo453Q6I8
This has been retracted, and the perpetrator has been caught. Like the others have said, right-wing christian nazi wannabe.
Ugh. Still religion?
Quote from: wildfire_emissary on July 24, 2011, 02:14:44 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on July 24, 2011, 12:12:55 PM
Quote from: wildfire_emissary on July 24, 2011, 09:43:05 AM
I don't if this is true but Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami (Assistants of the Global Jihad) claims to have initiated these violent attacks.
http://www.norwaynews.com/en/~view.php?72Ta854RM4482bB285Gpm844QL3884V076CFo453Q6I8
This has been retracted, and the perpetrator has been caught. Like the others have said, right-wing christian nazi wannabe.
Ugh. Still religion?
Religion is always the reason for senseless violence.... :-\
Good news (but only just) the death toll has been revised down to 76. The bomb total has been revised up by one to 8 while the total at the island has dropped to 68. While numbers are relativly meaningless in cases like this I was pleased to see the number drop back from the emotionally significant 100+ level.
Oh so you think 76 dead people is good news? Are you for real?
That's still a lot of people.. Even one person would sadden me.
So, they have this lunatic in custody?
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 25, 2011, 05:17:41 PM
That's still a lot of people.. Even one person would sadden me.
So, they have this lunatic in custody?
Yes. He gave himself up on the Island. It looks like this is, in part, a massive publicity stunt alongside an attempt to de-stabilise the Norwegian labour party. That failed because he missed the Prime Minister with the bomb. He is claiming that he did not do this alone and that there are two more 'cells' that are still out there. He has admitted his actions, but not his guilt, claiming what he did was 'necessary'.
Quote from: Tank on July 25, 2011, 06:00:44 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 25, 2011, 05:17:41 PM
That's still a lot of people.. Even one person would sadden me.
So, they have this lunatic in custody?
Yes. He gave himself up on the Island. It looks like this is, in part, a massive publicity stunt alongside an attempt to de-stabilise the Norwegian labour party. That failed because he missed the Prime Minister with the bomb. He is claiming that he did not do this alone and that there are two more 'cells' that are still out there. He has admitted his actions, but not his guilt, claiming what he did was 'necessary'.
Damn sociopath...
There really is no justice in this world. Even torture is too good for this scum.
A quote by a girl who was present at Utøya: "If one man can create that much hate, you can only imagine how much love we as a togetherness can create [...]"
Obviously, English isn't perfect, but you get the idea.
It's hard to love when so much violence and hatred exists...
If a psycho murders a little kid, but a man adopts two, which really has the greater impact?
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 25, 2011, 07:19:08 PM
It's hard to love when so much violence and hatred exists...
If a psycho murders a little kid, but a man adopts two, which really has the greater impact?
They can't be balenced as they are not related. For the adopted children the impact will be life changing. For the murder victim they won't know what happened as they will be dead, the pain of the murder lives on in the friends and relatives of the victim.
Quote from: Abletony on July 25, 2011, 05:09:42 PM
Oh so you think 76 dead people is good news? Are you for real?
76 is better than 98, which was the point I was making. If a plane crashes and people get out alive that is good news within a tragedy. That 76 people died is a tragedy for those people, all the friends and relatives of the people who died and those injured and the people caught up in the situation that were not physically injured. But outside that group of the directly effected, their friends and relatives this is a news story (gossip), something that happened to somebody else.
Good news takes strange forms in a tragedy. The YouTube videos of pet dogs that survived the Japanese tsunami. I knew a girl when I was a teen whose father had met her mother in a german concentration camp. He was a British soldier and she was a Polish jew. He was involved in the liberation of the camp, she was barely alive but survived and eventually came back to the UK where she had a daughter (the girl I knew), who went on to have two kids. So while 6,000,000 'ish jews died it's the survivors that a celebrated.
Abletony, if you live in the UK, and have not already been, it's worth making the effort to go to the Holocaust Centre (http://holocaustcentre.net/) near Newark. It illustrates that there are no limits to the evil that people can do nor the good they can do either.
Everybody dies eventually, medical care does not save life, it only prolongs it. 76 lives were ended prematurely by Anders Behring Breivik, I'm glad it wasn't 98, aren't you?
An interesting article on the BBC Norway attacks: How will experts assess the killer's mind? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14275981)
It's all speculation at the moment but it will be interesting to see how close the speculation turns out.
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2011, 09:07:37 AM
Quote from: Abletony on July 25, 2011, 05:09:42 PM
Oh so you think 76 dead people is good news? Are you for real?
76 is better than 98, which was the point I was making. If a plane crashes and people get out alive that is good news within a tragedy. That 76 people died is a tragedy for those people, all the friends and relatives of the people who died and those injured and the people caught up in the situation that were not physically injured. But outside that group of the directly effected, their friends and relatives this is a news story (gossip), something that happened to somebody else.
Good news takes strange forms in a tragedy. The YouTube videos of pet dogs that survived the Japanese tsunami. I knew a girl when I was a teen whose father had met her mother in a german concentration camp. He was a British soldier and she was a Polish jew. He was involved in the liberation of the camp, she was barely alive but survived and eventually came back to the UK where she had a daughter (the girl I knew), who went on to have two kids. So while 6,000,000 'ish jews died it's the survivors that a celebrated.
Abletony, if you live in the UK, and have not already been, it's worth making the effort to go to the Holocaust Centre (http://holocaustcentre.net/) near Newark. It illustrates that there are no limits to the evil that people can do nor the good they can do either.
Everybody dies eventually, medical care does not save life, it only prolongs it. 76 lives were ended prematurely by Anders Behring Breivik, I'm glad it wasn't 98, aren't you?
All of that could have been said with about a quarter of the number of words, Tank. I get it, ok.
Quote from: Abletony on July 26, 2011, 10:49:45 AM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2011, 09:07:37 AM
Quote from: Abletony on July 25, 2011, 05:09:42 PM
Oh so you think 76 dead people is good news? Are you for real?
76 is better than 98, which was the point I was making. If a plane crashes and people get out alive that is good news within a tragedy. That 76 people died is a tragedy for those people, all the friends and relatives of the people who died and those injured and the people caught up in the situation that were not physically injured. But outside that group of the directly effected, their friends and relatives this is a news story (gossip), something that happened to somebody else.
Good news takes strange forms in a tragedy. The YouTube videos of pet dogs that survived the Japanese tsunami. I knew a girl when I was a teen whose father had met her mother in a german concentration camp. He was a British soldier and she was a Polish jew. He was involved in the liberation of the camp, she was barely alive but survived and eventually came back to the UK where she had a daughter (the girl I knew), who went on to have two kids. So while 6,000,000 'ish jews died it's the survivors that a celebrated.
Abletony, if you live in the UK, and have not already been, it's worth making the effort to go to the Holocaust Centre (http://holocaustcentre.net/) near Newark. It illustrates that there are no limits to the evil that people can do nor the good they can do either.
Everybody dies eventually, medical care does not save life, it only prolongs it. 76 lives were ended prematurely by Anders Behring Breivik, I'm glad it wasn't 98, aren't you?
All of that could have been said with about a quarter of the number of words, Tank. I get it, ok.
Balance.
Quote from: Abletony on July 26, 2011, 10:49:45 AM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2011, 09:07:37 AM
Quote from: Abletony on July 25, 2011, 05:09:42 PM
Oh so you think 76 dead people is good news? Are you for real?
76 is better than 98, which was the point I was making. If a plane crashes and people get out alive that is good news within a tragedy. That 76 people died is a tragedy for those people, all the friends and relatives of the people who died and those injured and the people caught up in the situation that were not physically injured. But outside that group of the directly effected, their friends and relatives this is a news story (gossip), something that happened to somebody else.
Good news takes strange forms in a tragedy. The YouTube videos of pet dogs that survived the Japanese tsunami. I knew a girl when I was a teen whose father had met her mother in a german concentration camp. He was a British soldier and she was a Polish jew. He was involved in the liberation of the camp, she was barely alive but survived and eventually came back to the UK where she had a daughter (the girl I knew), who went on to have two kids. So while 6,000,000 'ish jews died it's the survivors that a celebrated.
Abletony, if you live in the UK, and have not already been, it's worth making the effort to go to the Holocaust Centre (http://holocaustcentre.net/) near Newark. It illustrates that there are no limits to the evil that people can do nor the good they can do either.
Everybody dies eventually, medical care does not save life, it only prolongs it. 76 lives were ended prematurely by Anders Behring Breivik, I'm glad it wasn't 98, aren't you?
All of that could have been said with about a quarter of the number of words, Tank. I get it, ok.
Perhaps you should read the civility thread. There's no need to be snarky to Tank. He was just answering your question.
I like what you said, Tank. I agree that even good things can come from a great tragedy.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 26, 2011, 04:46:59 PM
Quote from: Abletony on July 26, 2011, 10:49:45 AM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2011, 09:07:37 AM
Quote from: Abletony on July 25, 2011, 05:09:42 PM
Oh so you think 76 dead people is good news? Are you for real?
76 is better than 98, which was the point I was making. If a plane crashes and people get out alive that is good news within a tragedy. That 76 people died is a tragedy for those people, all the friends and relatives of the people who died and those injured and the people caught up in the situation that were not physically injured. But outside that group of the directly effected, their friends and relatives this is a news story (gossip), something that happened to somebody else.
Good news takes strange forms in a tragedy. The YouTube videos of pet dogs that survived the Japanese tsunami. I knew a girl when I was a teen whose father had met her mother in a german concentration camp. He was a British soldier and she was a Polish jew. He was involved in the liberation of the camp, she was barely alive but survived and eventually came back to the UK where she had a daughter (the girl I knew), who went on to have two kids. So while 6,000,000 'ish jews died it's the survivors that a celebrated.
Abletony, if you live in the UK, and have not already been, it's worth making the effort to go to the Holocaust Centre (http://holocaustcentre.net/) near Newark. It illustrates that there are no limits to the evil that people can do nor the good they can do either.
Everybody dies eventually, medical care does not save life, it only prolongs it. 76 lives were ended prematurely by Anders Behring Breivik, I'm glad it wasn't 98, aren't you?
All of that could have been said with about a quarter of the number of words, Tank. I get it, ok.
Perhaps you should read the civility thread. There's no need to be snarky to Tank. He was just answering your question.
I like what you said, Tank. I agree that even good things can come from a great tragedy.
I wasn't being snarky. I was just jokingly pointing out that he was being a bit long winded in his answer. He doesn't seem to have a problem and I think he read my tone correctly, whereas you've got the wrong end of the stick. No one is being snarky.
Quote from: Abletony on July 26, 2011, 05:57:47 PM
I wasn't being snarky. I was just jokingly pointing out that he was being a bit long winded in his answer. He doesn't seem to have a problem and I think he read my tone correctly, whereas you've got the wrong end of the stick. No one is being snarky.
You should stick a winky on the end ;) if you're making a tongue-in-cheek comment. The other thing to remember is that I am not necessarily responding just to a post but an issue in general and not necesserily to just one person. Thus while to you I may appear long winded it won't be so to others. Giving cryptic one liners is not a good way to encourage discussion and debate. So while it's fine to reply like that if it's your style it's not an encouraging style that promotes engaugement. If everyboby replied cryptically then the forum would die a sudden death.
Norway's Anders Behring Breivik in open court hearing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15720289)
QuoteThe man who confessed to killing 77 people in Norway in July has made his first public appearance in court.
Anders Behring Breivik, dressed in a dark suit, appeared in court in Oslo before dozens of reporters and members of the public.
The 32-year-old right-wing extremist has been in custody since the 22 July attacks in Oslo and at a youth camp on the island of Utoeya.
Previous hearings on his continued detention have been held in private...
...Mr Breivik has admitted to the July killings but denies criminal responsibility - saying the massacre was "necessary" to save Norway and Europe from Muslims and multiculturalism...
Nutters come in all shapes and sizes.
That is just so sad. I remember being so worried for the families of the kids at the camp. I even had a friend who was thinking about going, but couldn't due to money issues.
I read a report that the judge found that he was not insane. So, here is a sane person who, because of his particular world view, finds that it was justified to kill dozens of innocent people. World views are important - they provide the matrix from which we interpret the world. You can be sane and even generally non-evil as a person, and still come to horrendous conclusions and perform evil acts, all based on your world view.
Quote from: Tank on November 14, 2011, 12:01:03 PM
Nutters come in all shapes and sizes.
He was a far-right Christian extremist, I'd call anyone with that worldview a nutter!
I think his father summed it up nicely when he said ABB should have just shot himself, rather than killing anyone else.
Ugh, Anders, I hate that name.
Maybe he should try saying that he had multiple personality disorder, it seems to be a favorite. Or else that no, actually free will doesn't exist. But it does. Wait, no it doesn't, at least when it's convenient...
He says it's necesary, who does he think he is? God?
He wants to go to court in a self-designed uniform as a 'military commander in the Norwegian resistance movement and Knights Templar Norway'. And they claim he's not mad?
Quote from: OldGit on November 15, 2011, 10:44:58 PM
And they claim he's not mad?
"Mad" and "legally insane" are two different concepts. Apples & oranges. There are lots of "mad" people out there who are nontheless legally sane and capable of standing trial to answer for their actions. This guy knew exactly what he was doing and why. He is sane, which is a scary thought.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 15, 2011, 10:48:09 PM
Quote from: OldGit on November 15, 2011, 10:44:58 PM
And they claim he's not mad?
"Mad" and "legally insane" are two different concepts. Apples & oranges. There are lots of "mad" people out there who are nontheless legally sane and capable of standing trial to answer for their actions. This guy knew exactly what he was doing and why. He is sane, which is a scary thought.
Does the fact that he planned for it also mean that he's legally sane?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 15, 2011, 10:48:09 PM
Quote from: OldGit on November 15, 2011, 10:44:58 PM
And they claim he's not mad?
"Mad" and "legally insane" are two different concepts. Apples & oranges. There are lots of "mad" people out there who are nonetheless legally sane and capable of standing trial to answer for their actions. This guy knew exactly what he was doing and why. He is sane, which is a scary thought.
I think he is sane in the sense that he created a logical plan and executed it ruthlessly. The question is, does his total lack of empathy for his fellow humans also constitute a type of insanity, and if so would it be reasonable to use this as a defence? To me the point is moot as there is no death penalty in Norway, he's never going to be let out into the community again. The issue is whether he is kept in a hospital or prison for the rest of his life.
What I can't understand is how he thinks murdering his own people will stop the percieved Islamic invasion? Wasn't he taking it out on the wrong guys?
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on November 16, 2011, 11:05:10 AM
What I can't understand is how he thinks murdering his own people will stop the percieved Islamic invasion? Wasn't he taking it out on the wrong guys?
He attacked the liberal political left. Those he sees as the root of the problem letting Muslims into Norway in the first place. He didn't do this randomly, he targeted the next generation of left wing liberal politicians.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 16, 2011, 01:09:32 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 15, 2011, 10:48:09 PM
Quote from: OldGit on November 15, 2011, 10:44:58 PM
And they claim he's not mad?
"Mad" and "legally insane" are two different concepts. Apples & oranges. There are lots of "mad" people out there who are nontheless legally sane and capable of standing trial to answer for their actions. This guy knew exactly what he was doing and why. He is sane, which is a scary thought.
Does the fact that he planned for it also mean that he's legally sane?
I think that contributes to the concept. He knew exactly what he was doing. An insane person would not be able to concoct and carry out such a plan.
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 07:35:55 AM
I think he is sane in the sense that he created a logical plan and executed it ruthlessly. The question is, does his total lack of empathy for his fellow humans also constitute a type of insanity, and if so would it be reasonable to use this as a defence?
The total lack of emphathy may mean that he is a psychopath (anti-social personality disorder), but that is not insanity. A certain percentage of the population are psychopathic, but can be quite functional and even intelligent in normal situations. There are probably psychopaths who are also CEO's. They are just ruthless people - they are wired that way. Note that "psychopathic" does not mean "psychotic", which IS a form of insanity.
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 01:11:38 PM
He attacked the liberal political left. Those he sees as the root of the problem letting Muslims into Norway in the first place. He didn't do this randomly, he targeted the next generation of left wing liberal politicians.
From a purely detached point of view, his plan was pretty bright. It would be comparable to someone killing all the students at West Point in order to deliver a blow to the future USA officer corps. It's all a matter of one's world view - whom does one understand one's enemies to be. He determined who his enemies were and what the source of the problem was, and devised a plan to stop it. We don't share his world view about the method he used or even about the problem itself, but one tribe killing another tribe is as human as it comes. A few hundred years ago this guy would have been a hero. He probably IS a hero to a certain segment of Western civilization. This is a form of tribalism that is deeply ingrained in us, and a few generations of liberal enlightenment is not going to eliminate this impulse from the human psyche.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 16, 2011, 02:27:06 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 07:35:55 AM
I think he is sane in the sense that he created a logical plan and executed it ruthlessly. The question is, does his total lack of empathy for his fellow humans also constitute a type of insanity, and if so would it be reasonable to use this as a defence?
The total lack of empathy may mean that he is a psychopath (anti-social personality disorder), but that is not insanity. A certain percentage of the population are psychopathic, but can be quite functional and even intelligent in normal situations. There are probably psychopaths who are also CEO's. They are just ruthless people - they are wired that way. Note that "psychopathic" does not mean "psychotic", which IS a form of insanity.
The higher you go in corporate management the more likely you are to come across psychopaths. At board level the concentration of psychopaths is 4 times that of the general population. There was an article on it recently, I'll see if I can dig it up.
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 03:36:44 PM
The higher you go in corporate management the more likely you are to come across psychopaths. At board level the concentration of psychopaths is 4 times that of the general population. There was an article on it recently, I'll see if I can dig it up.
Yes, I saw that article, as well. It's comforting to know that our economy is run by psychopaths. I suspect that the percentage is also higher among political leaders than in the general population.
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 03:36:44 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 16, 2011, 02:27:06 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 07:35:55 AM
I think he is sane in the sense that he created a logical plan and executed it ruthlessly. The question is, does his total lack of empathy for his fellow humans also constitute a type of insanity, and if so would it be reasonable to use this as a defence?
The total lack of empathy may mean that he is a psychopath (anti-social personality disorder), but that is not insanity. A certain percentage of the population are psychopathic, but can be quite functional and even intelligent in normal situations. There are probably psychopaths who are also CEO's. They are just ruthless people - they are wired that way. Note that "psychopathic" does not mean "psychotic", which IS a form of insanity.
The higher you go in corporate management the more likely you are to come across psychopaths. At board level the concentration of psychopaths is 4 times that of the general population. There was an article on it recently, I'll see if I can dig it up.
I can well believe it. My experience of many of the the ambitious or career orientated people I know or have met is that they are at least mildly sociopathic, some have definitely had psychopathic personality disorders. On the other hand, all my friends who aren't career orientated, and are more of the laid back hippie / slacker variety, are all very nice well rounded human beings.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on November 17, 2011, 11:54:34 AM
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 03:36:44 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 16, 2011, 02:27:06 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 07:35:55 AM
I think he is sane in the sense that he created a logical plan and executed it ruthlessly. The question is, does his total lack of empathy for his fellow humans also constitute a type of insanity, and if so would it be reasonable to use this as a defence?
The total lack of empathy may mean that he is a psychopath (anti-social personality disorder), but that is not insanity. A certain percentage of the population are psychopathic, but can be quite functional and even intelligent in normal situations. There are probably psychopaths who are also CEO's. They are just ruthless people - they are wired that way. Note that "psychopathic" does not mean "psychotic", which IS a form of insanity.
The higher you go in corporate management the more likely you are to come across psychopaths. At board level the concentration of psychopaths is 4 times that of the general population. There was an article on it recently, I'll see if I can dig it up.
I can well believe it. My experience of many of the the ambitious or career orientated people I know or have met is that they are at least mildly sociopathic, some have definitely had psychopathic personality disorders. On the other hand, all my friends who aren't career orientated, and are more of the laid back hippie / slacker variety, are all very nice well rounded human beings.
I would say that most of the people that fit into that categorisation I've encountered are more pathologically narcissistic than psychopathic, if I had to guess. But the two can and do overlap...
Teachers too. There's something odd about some of them.
Now they are saying he is, in fact, insane.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/29/world/europe/norway-terror-suspect/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
I do indeed think he's insane, but how that frees one from a prison sentence or death I still cannot comprehend.
Quote from: KingPhilip on November 29, 2011, 02:35:55 PM
I do indeed think he's insane, but how that frees one from a prison sentence or death I still cannot comprehend.
Insanity is an illness that negates responsibility for one's action. Norway does not have the death penalty so whatever caused him to do what he did will make no difference that he will be incarcerated for the rest of his days.
Whether he was insane or not isn't really the problem for the legal system but rather where do you put him so he may not influence others. Labeling him insane and putting him in a mental hospital would help and easy to do so.
I don't think he was insane, for the simple reason that everything was well thought out and executed ruthlessly to his plan that was years in the making. He didn't act on impulse or act due to any mental disorder, he wrote books about his worldview that have a logical structure (even though they are fucked up). He understood what he was doing was wrong and made sure he hid what he was doing. There is the argument that his disregard for human life could be the signs of his insanity but I don't think so, he viewed the deaths as necessary for the greater good in a political/military sense. Was he a nutter? yes. Was he insane? no.
Quote from: Tank on November 29, 2011, 02:53:56 PMNorway does not have the death penalty so whatever caused him to do what he did will make no difference that he will be incarcerated for the rest of his days.
The one thing I dislike about Norway. >.>
Quote from: Crow on November 29, 2011, 03:39:47 PMThere is the argument that his disregard for human life could be the signs of his insanity but I don't think so, he viewed the deaths as necessary for the greater good in a political/military sense. Was he a nutter? yes. Was he insane? no.
Is that actually an argument they put forward? If that were the case, then a massive amount of murderers could be declared insane and released from whatever punishment they were given. Even if one does not view death as necessary for a greater good, I don't think that disregard for human life is enough to declare one insane and thus negate the need for proper justice.
Quote from: KingPhilip on November 29, 2011, 04:03:50 PM
Is that actually an argument they put forward? If that were the case, then a massive amount of murderers could be declared insane and released from whatever punishment they were given. Even if one does not view death as necessary for a greater good, I don't think that disregard for human life is enough to declare one insane and thus negate the need for proper justice.
I don't know if they did use it for his defense but it was a subject that Tank brought to the discussion (see below) and an issue that has arisen when I have been talking about this subject with friends.
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 07:35:55 AM
The question is, does his total lack of empathy for his fellow humans also constitute a type of insanity, and if so would it be reasonable to use this as a defence?
Pretty much everyone who murders others has a reason why they do it, whether it is mental insanity, phsychopathic, bad upbringing, poverty, anger issues, jealousy...
If we understand the reason for it, does that mean we blame the precursors rather than hold the person accountable for their actions?
Quote from: Stevil on November 29, 2011, 06:20:40 PM
Pretty much everyone who murders others has a reason why they do it, whether it is mental insanity, phsychopathic, bad upbringing, poverty, anger issues, jealousy...
If we understand the reason for it, does that mean we blame the precursors rather than hold the person accountable for their actions?
Definitly, that's the only way we can really get things better. We have to understand our deeply complex and faulty evolution. That does not mean that people who cannot be trusted in society should not be kept away from it.
In this country we are always hearing of fresh murders committed by convicted killers who have been released from prison because they 'are no longer a risk'. That's one reason why the majority of the public are in favour of bringing back capital punishment.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 14, 2011, 08:15:30 PM
I read a report that the judge found that he was not insane.
Well, the report was wrong - it was a team of psychiatrists who found him clinically insane due to paranoid schizophrenia, not the judge.
He [EDIT: Breivik, not the judge. For clarification...] is likely to contest the verdict though.
The argument is that his paranoid delusions are changing his perception of reality. In the way his mind interprets the input he recieves, there is a fundamental flaw that causes him to see the world in a different, usually more scary way from ordinary people. The argument therefor is that the only way to combat this effectivly is to incarcerate him in a mental institution, where he is kept away from the public and can be treated for his mental disorder.
This can also be a good thing, from the point of view of putting him away for longer. A mental incarceration is the only way a criminal can be locked away for life in Norway. Assuming that treatment isn't effective. If it is, he can still face further procecution once he's deemed fit to stand trial.
Norway has a history of treating the criminally insane in this manner dating back to the european middle ages.
Quote from: Guardian85 on November 29, 2011, 10:43:45 PM
A mental incarceration is the only way a criminal can be locked away for life in Norway.
Actually, what is called a
forvaringsdom with a frame of maximum 21 years can theoretically be prolonged indefinitely after said period. Getting out of a mental institution, however, hinges on being declared healthy and posing no apparent threat to self or others.
Quote from: Crow on November 29, 2011, 03:39:47 PM
Whether he was insane or not isn't really the problem for the legal system but rather where do you put him so he may not influence others. Labeling him insane and putting him in a mental hospital would help and easy to do so.
I don't think he was insane, for the simple reason that everything was well thought out and executed ruthlessly to his plan that was years in the making. He didn't act on impulse or act due to any mental disorder, he wrote books about his worldview that have a logical structure (even though they are fucked up). He understood what he was doing was wrong and made sure he hid what he was doing. There is the argument that his disregard for human life could be the signs of his insanity but I don't think so, he viewed the deaths as necessary for the greater good in a political/military sense. Was he a nutter? yes. Was he insane? no.
Are insane people not able to execute plans or think logically? Are they not able to write books? I don't see why not.
Quote from: Asmodean on November 29, 2011, 11:08:45 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on November 29, 2011, 10:43:45 PM
A mental incarceration is the only way a criminal can be locked away for life in Norway.
Actually, what is called a forvaringsdom with a frame of maximum 21 years can theoretically be prolonged indefinitely after said period. Getting out of a mental institution, however, hinges on being declared healthy and posing no apparent threat to self or others.
And there is the phrase that will keep him tucked away for the rest of his life.
Quote from: Tank on November 30, 2011, 09:49:55 AM
And there is the phrase that will keep him tucked away for the rest of his life.
Most likely, yes. But, say, twenty years is a long time and if after said period some group of New-Ager shrinks finds the new and harmless Breivik to be... Well, new and harmless... The possibility of him getting out is there due to the process involved in evaluating threat level and health status (Due to what has to be included in evaluation and what has not to)
It's there even if we imprison him, since today Norway does not have any real form for life-sentencing. The maximum sentence is thirty years in prison (applies to terrorism only, I think), after which time you kind of have to be released OR you can get a 21 year sentence with the possibility of extention every five years or so, which again brings us to the process involved, which puts the convicted in a reasonably good position to be released.
One does have to wonder, what do the victims' families think he should get? Do they get any say whatsoever?
Quote from: Budhorse4 on November 30, 2011, 01:11:55 PM
One does have to wonder, what do the victims' families think he should get? Do they get any say whatsoever?
That is an extremely important question and an emotional minefield. On the one hand how can somebody who has not been the victim of a particular crime (in this case the murder of one's child/brother/sister/mother/father) truly understand its impact? While on the other hand how can the relation of a victim ever be considered sufficiently emotionally detached/objective to have a reasonable view on what should be done to the perpetrator?
I don't know the answer to these very vexing questions but I do know that if my son or daughter were killed I wouldn't be in a place where I would be able to be objective about what I would personally want to happen to the perpetrator. But I am firmly against the death penalty. Not because I have any sympathy to murderers but because the judicial system is run by people and therefore subject to human error.
Quote from: Tank on November 30, 2011, 01:30:32 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on November 30, 2011, 01:11:55 PM
One does have to wonder, what do the victims' families think he should get? Do they get any say whatsoever?
That is an extremely important question and an emotional minefield. On the one hand how can somebody who has not been the victim of a particular crime (in this case the murder of one's child/brother/sister/mother/father) truly understand its impact? While on the other hand how can the relation of a victim ever be considered sufficiently emotionally detached/objective to have a reasonable view on what should be done to the perpetrator?
I don't know the answer to these very vexing questions but I do know that if my son or daughter were killed I wouldn't be in a place where I would be able to be objective about what I would personally want to happen to the perpetrator. But I am firmly against the death penalty. Not because I have any sympathy to murderers but because the judicial system is run by people and therefore subject to human error.
Agreed, it's a very difficult subject to try and sort out how involved you make the victim's family in the whole process. Personally I don't believe that they should have any sort of official say in what happens, as they will be incredible impartial and often push to punish the first suspect found simply for closure.
I am very for the death penalty, but only in cases where it is absolutely clear that there is no other possibility than this person having committed the crime in question. Such as Mr. Breivik. If you only have a minimal amount of evidence that convicted them, then it's really a huge risk to take.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on November 30, 2011, 01:11:55 PM
One does have to wonder, what do the victims' families think he should get? Do they get any say whatsoever?
No say at all, although their interests may be considered while sentencing.
I guess that one who was a victim of a crime of this stature would not be as emotionally stable and not objective, but I do think that their opinions should at least be heard.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on November 30, 2011, 01:45:46 PM
I guess that one who was a victim of a crime of this stature would not be as emotionally stable and not objective, but I do think that their opinions should at least be heard.
AFAIK in the UK there is such a thing as a victim impact statement. It is read out in court if the virdict is guilty and the judge may choose to take the statement into account when sentencing the criminal.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on November 30, 2011, 01:45:46 PM
I guess that one who was a victim of a crime of this stature would not be as emotionally stable and not objective, but I do think that their opinions should at least be heard.
I have to admit that victims impact statements make me uncomfortable -- if there's anyplace were impartiality and cold reason should hold sway, it's a courtroom. As Tank pointed out, that's already compromised by humans being humans so the impact statement just throws another wrench in the works. Besides, it seems faintly insulting to me to assume that others would not understand that the victims and survivors are devastated without being told. And people working in the judical system probably understand it already much better than most.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 01, 2011, 12:44:42 AM
I have to admit that victims impact statements make me uncomfortable -- if there's anyplace were impartiality and cold reason should hold sway, it's a courtroom. As Tank pointed out, that's already compromised by humans being humans so the impact statement just throws another wrench in the works. Besides, it seems faintly insulting to me to assume that others would not understand that the victims and survivors are devastated without being told. And people working in the judical system probably understand it already much better than most.
Quote from: WikiOne purpose of the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_impact_statement) statement is to allow the person or persons most directly affected by the crime to address the court during the decision making process. It is seen to personalize the crime and elevate the status of the victim. From the victim's point of view it is regarded as valuable in aiding their emotional recovery from their ordeal. It has also been suggested they may confront an offender with the results of their crime and thus aid rehabilitation.
I don't have a problem with victims having a say, it seems a bit of a sop but if victims think it helps I wouldn't deny them.
I think it's done in the sentencing process, after guilt is established.
Judges do the sentencing and I don't see them being unduly swayed by emotion.
Quote from: Tank on November 30, 2011, 01:48:29 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on November 30, 2011, 01:45:46 PM
I guess that one who was a victim of a crime of this stature would not be as emotionally stable and not objective, but I do think that their opinions should at least be heard.
AFAIK in the UK there is such a thing as a victim impact statement. It is read out in court if the virdict is guilty and the judge may choose to take the statement into account when sentencing the criminal.
I don't know about that, but this case has naturally been getting immense media coverage and the victims have taken a more or less direct part in that. Judges do watch TV occasionally and read a paper now and then, so the victims are heard in that way at least. How much the judge is allowed to let himself be influenced by such is a different matter though.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance link=topic=8610.msg135862#msg135862
Are insane people not able to execute plans or think logically? Are they not able to write books? I don't see why not.
Good point. Yeah that was not a good reason for him being sane. Insanity could in fact be the leading cause for the thoroughness of his plans and devotion to has goals. What I find interesting could the same type of dedication be considered insane if the outcome was benign or beneficial to society?
What they should do is this.
Calculate his net worth,
Calculate how much money would be spent on psychiatric treatment.
Calculate how much money would be spent on lawyers.
Write a book and sell it, collect all the money.
Write a movie and sell it, collect all the money.
Put people into talk shows and news documentaries, collect all the money.
Sell his guns, memorabilia to the sicko Americans that like to buy that stuff, collect the money.
Shoot him.
Give all the money to the families of the victims.
Quote from: Stevil on December 01, 2011, 06:45:30 PM
Calculate his net worth,
They did. Doesn't exist, really.
Norway readies for its trial of the century (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17710355)
QuotePreparations for the trial of Anders Behring Breivik have been going on since his dramatic arrest on the island of Utoeya on 22 July last year.
The terror attacks that traumatised this small nation have dominated political life and the media in Norway ever since.
Norwegians are weary of the wall-to-wall media coverage of the Breivik attacks but they are still searching for answers about what happened that day. In particular, the victims' families want to know why it took police so long to respond.
The former justice minister Knut Storberget and the former chief of security services (PST) Janne Kristiansen, both in charge at the time, were forced to resign under heavy criticism of the handling of the terror attacks.
After months of criticism, the police, the PST and Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg finally apologised in March.
The catalogue of police errors on the day is currently under investigation and will be a main subject of the independent public inquiry into the attacks which is due to be published in August...
Quote from: Tank on April 14, 2012, 05:54:01 AM
Quote
The terror attacks that traumatised this small nation have dominated political life and the media in Norway ever since.
And yet, business as usual as far as I can see.
This thing only "dominates" the media when they have something new to say. Oh, it happens almost every day, but doesn't make front page all too often any more. The trial probably will, and that will be interesting to read, methink.
I hope that the families of the victims are able to find some measure of closure and peace when Breivik is sentenced. :'(
Norway puts Anders Behring Breivik on trial for murder (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17724535)
QuoteThe man who carried out a bomb and gun attack in Norway last year that left 77 people dead has gone on trial in Oslo.
Anders Breivik attacked a summer youth camp organised by the governing Labour party on the island of Utoeya, after setting off a car bomb in the capital.
He gave a closed-fist salute, and said he did not recognise the court because it was dependent on political parties who supported multiculturalism.
Breivik has confessed to the killings, but denies criminal responsibility.
If the court decides he is criminally insane, he will be committed to psychiatric care; if he is judged to be mentally stable, he will be jailed.
In the latter case, he faces a sentence of 21 years, which could be extended to keep him behind bars for the rest of his life...
I'm watching the trial on the TV at the moment. The BBC translator is amazing! They have just finished listing the indictments and each death or injury had to be briefly described and the name of the person given. They just asked him to plead and he acknowledges responsibility for the injuries and deaths but pleaded not guilty and the acts were in 'self defence'. 9:25 am UK
Apparently Breivik does not want to be considered insane as he considers that would dilute his message.
He now gets 5 days to explain his actions. This will not be televised but I believe it can be reported on. There are 800 reporters registered to see the trial. The public televised feed has a 1 minute transmission delay.
Quote from: Tank on April 16, 2012, 09:27:19 AM
They just asked him to plead and he acknowledges responsibility for the injuries and deaths but pleaded not guilty and the acts were in 'self defence'.
That's maddening. It's not surprising, because it's the attitude of Conservative Christians over here as well (taken to its most grizzly extreme, of course.) "If I'm not allowed to institutionalize my religion, it is under attack." To kill people over that nonsense....
What's this bullshit about him getting 21 years? Whaaaa? That's not even 1 year for every person he killed.
Quote from: The Ali on April 16, 2012, 02:27:16 PM
That's maddening. It's not surprising, because it's the attitude of Conservative Christians over here as well (taken to its most grizzly extreme, of course.) "If I'm not allowed to institutionalize my religion, it is under attack." To kill people over that nonsense....
What's this bullshit about him getting 21 years? Whaaaa? That's not even 1 year for every person he killed.
Norway's max sentence is 21 years. He can be put in for life, if he is deemed unsafe.
He certainly seems pretty unsafe to me.
Quote from: OldGit on April 16, 2012, 02:59:34 PM
He certainly seems pretty unsafe to me.
What unnerves me is the fact the he smiled when they played the videos of the bomb going off. He's happy that all those people are dead. I feel like jailing isn't even a valid punishment for him. >:(
*Edit- I guess I am a bit worked up over this, but I had a friend who was on Utoeye when this happened and I remember being scared shitless for her.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on April 16, 2012, 03:02:25 PM
Quote from: OldGit on April 16, 2012, 02:59:34 PM
He certainly seems pretty unsafe to me.
What unnerves me is the fact the he smiled when they played the videos of the bomb going off. He's happy that all those people are dead. I feel like jailing isn't even a valid punishment for him. >:(
*Edit- I guess I am a bit worked up over this, but I had a friend who was on Utoeye when this happened and I remember being scared shitless for her.
I assume he/she was not hurt?
Quote from: Tank on April 16, 2012, 03:11:33 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on April 16, 2012, 03:02:25 PM
Quote from: OldGit on April 16, 2012, 02:59:34 PM
He certainly seems pretty unsafe to me.
What unnerves me is the fact the he smiled when they played the videos of the bomb going off. He's happy that all those people are dead. I feel like jailing isn't even a valid punishment for him. >:(
*Edit- I guess I am a bit worked up over this, but I had a friend who was on Utoeye when this happened and I remember being scared shitless for her.
I assume he/she was not hurt?
No, she was fine. She called about a week after. :)
Norway's max sentence is thirty years in prison, but after that period, the prisoner is released.
However, if sentenced to "21 to life" (Which technically is a 21 years in prison sentence), it can be prolonged for five or ten years at a time under special circumstances.
What is the likelihood/possibility that he'd be killed by another inmate while in prison?
Quote from: Asmodean on April 16, 2012, 07:12:16 PM
Norway's max sentence is thirty years in prison, but after that period, the prisoner is released.
However, if sentenced to "21 to life" (Which technically is a 21 years in prison sentence), it can be prolonged for five or ten years at a time under special circumstances.
Ah! So by sentencing him to 21 to life (rather than the max of 30) they pave the way to actually keep him longer if they see fit. Tricksy!
Quote from: Tank on April 16, 2012, 07:14:58 PM
What is the likelihood/possibility that he'd be killed by another inmate while in prison?
Considering that several criminal organizations (including Hell's Angels) have offered a price for his head... :-\
More then a little likely.
I was watching it live on the TV news too. It was pretty sick how he was completely unaffected when the killings were recounted in court, but was crying when his pathetic youtube propaganda video was played, making him out to be a modern crusader knight and defender of Europe and western civilization, yuck! I got the impression he's very narcististic and deluded on top of being a very unpleasant fucked-up individual.
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 16, 2012, 08:13:12 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 16, 2012, 07:14:58 PM
What is the likelihood/possibility that he'd be killed by another inmate while in prison?
Considering that several criminal organizations (including Hell's Angels) have offered a price for his head... :-\
More then a little likely.
Good. I hope he gets shanked hard. T_T
That's my gut reaction, too, but then I start to wonder if that wouldn't give other RW nutters the chance to make him a martyr.
Mind you, if I were banged up with a head-case like that, I'd probably want to kill him just to get him out of my cell. ;D
Oh, one can be quite certain that he gets a one man cell and a small army of guards following him around. The jail is aware of the dangers and the threats.
Quote from: Asmodean on April 17, 2012, 10:54:53 AM
Oh, one can be quite certain that he gets a one man cell and a small army of guards following him around. The jail is aware of the dangers and the threats.
Why would they waste time and money protecting someone like that? It seems so ass backwards.
They want the world to see how fair, humane and civilised they are. And they're probably right, much as it pains me to admit it.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on April 16, 2012, 11:39:25 PM
It was pretty sick how he was completely unaffected when the killings were recounted in court, but was crying when his pathetic youtube propaganda video was played, making him out to be a modern crusader knight and defender of Europe and western civilization, yuck!
Oh, Fuck off! >:( (to him, not you)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 17, 2012, 01:57:00 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 17, 2012, 10:54:53 AM
Oh, one can be quite certain that he gets a one man cell and a small army of guards following him around. The jail is aware of the dangers and the threats.
Why would they waste time and money protecting someone like that? It seems so ass backwards.
Because the government frowns upon people killing people, assholes and polar bears :P
Quote from: OldGit on April 17, 2012, 03:08:31 PM
They want the world to see how fair, humane and civilised they are. And they're probably right, much as it pains me to admit it.
Agreed (including that it pains to admit.)
I wish we didn't have the death penalty in the US, no matter how much some people need killin'.
Breivik case 'shows insanity misconceptions' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17859499)
QuoteHorrific crimes, such as the Anders Breivik case, illustrate the misconceptions the public has about mental illness, a leading expert says.
Professor Simon Wessely, of King's College London, said the simplest responses to mass killings were that the perpetrators "must be mad".
But he said the way Breivik carried out the killings suggested otherwise.
He said the idea a psychiatric diagnosis could help people avoid punishment was wrong too.
Writing in the Lancet medical journal, Professor Wessely said putting forward a mental illness defence in the UK could lead a person to spending more time behind bars than less.
"The forensic psychiatry system is not a soft or popular option," he added.
'Meticulous way'
The psychiatrist also said the Breivik case highlighted another misconception - that outrageous crimes must mean mental illness.
"For schizophrenia to explain Breivik's actions, they would have to be the result of delusions."
But he added: "The meticulous way in which he planned his attacks does not speak to the disorganisation of schizophrenia."
An interesting observation on insanity.
This made me smile.
http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/04/23/anders_behring_breivik_apology_for_innocent_oslo_bombing_victims_but_no_apology_for_norway_youth_camp_massacre.html?from=rss/&wpisrc=newsletter_slatest (http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/04/23/anders_behring_breivik_apology_for_innocent_oslo_bombing_victims_but_no_apology_for_norway_youth_camp_massacre.html?from=rss/&wpisrc=newsletter_slatest)
I actually doubt that Breivik hates the song - it's just that many people quite understandably do not want it associated with him and his own personal world.
Still... 40000 people showed up in Oslo and more all over the country plus Iceland, apparently. As a show of sympathy for those worst affected, it was a nice gesture, although some quacky shrinks are already busily overanalysing it.
Quote from: Tank on April 27, 2012, 07:53:05 AM
Breivik case 'shows insanity misconceptions' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17859499)
QuoteHorrific crimes, such as the Anders Breivik case, illustrate the misconceptions the public has about mental illness, a leading expert says.
Professor Simon Wessely, of King's College London, said the simplest responses to mass killings were that the perpetrators "must be mad".
But he said the way Breivik carried out the killings suggested otherwise.
He said the idea a psychiatric diagnosis could help people avoid punishment was wrong too.
Writing in the Lancet medical journal, Professor Wessely said putting forward a mental illness defence in the UK could lead a person to spending more time behind bars than less.
"The forensic psychiatry system is not a soft or popular option," he added.
'Meticulous way'
The psychiatrist also said the Breivik case highlighted another misconception - that outrageous crimes must mean mental illness.
"For schizophrenia to explain Breivik's actions, they would have to be the result of delusions."
But he added: "The meticulous way in which he planned his attacks does not speak to the disorganisation of schizophrenia."
An interesting observation on insanity.
Absence of empathy is probably what is needed to carry out this kind of atrocity. Plus too much time on your hands.
Coupled with a very inflated sense of self and conciderable paranoia.
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 27, 2012, 11:06:26 PM
Coupled with a very inflated sense of self and conciderable paranoia.
I doubt narcissism is necessary to shoot a whole lot of otherwise good kids.
Still, I do think that you pretty much have to be extremely paranoid in order to even come close to success in such a... Venture?
Quote from: Asmodean on April 28, 2012, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 27, 2012, 11:06:26 PM
Coupled with a very inflated sense of self and conciderable paranoia.
I doubt narcissism is necessary to shoot a whole lot of otherwise good kids.
Still, I do think that you pretty much have to be extremely paranoid in order to even come close to success in such a... Venture?
Some of them may have been bad kids by your criteria.
Quote from: En_Route on April 30, 2012, 11:56:03 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 28, 2012, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 27, 2012, 11:06:26 PM
Coupled with a very inflated sense of self and conciderable paranoia.
I doubt narcissism is necessary to shoot a whole lot of otherwise good kids.
Still, I do think that you pretty much have to be extremely paranoid in order to even come close to success in such a... Venture?
Some of them may have been bad kids by your criteria.
Even so, to just murder a camp full of children?
Even Asmo wouldnt do such a thing...i think. I'm pretty sure.
Quote from: En_Route on April 30, 2012, 11:56:03 PM
Some of them may have been bad kids by your criteria.
I'm sure some were. They held a political view opposite my own, for instance.
However, I find killing for ideology a stupid and unnecessary thing. I'd rather attempt to shred them in a debate than "prove my point" by bringing a gun to a summer camp.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 01, 2012, 09:24:03 AM
Quote from: En_Route on April 30, 2012, 11:56:03 PM
Some of them may have been bad kids by your criteria.
I'm sure some were. They held a political view opposite my own, for instance.
However, I find killing for ideology a stupid and unnecessary thing. I'd rather attempt to shred them in a debate than "prove my point" by bringing a gun to a summer camp.
That's good to know.
The court is using this week for going over every death in detail. For every person, the injuries and cause of death are listed, the bullet paths are shown on a human-sized doll, the pictures of where they were found (after the body has been removed, but retaining the blood, bullet holes and who knows what else) and what they looked like in life are shown and a few words are said in memoriam.
The general public gets some really watered down info from the media, and while curious and little-black-hearted, in this case I support the "watering down" - this part must suck enough for those whos kids, siblings and friends were among those who didn't make it out alive without making each death, and therein someone's personal tragedy, a public display.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 07, 2012, 11:15:09 PM
The court is using this week for going over every death in detail. For every person, the injuries and cause of death are listed, the bullet paths are shown on a human-sized doll, the pictures of where they were found (after the body has been removed, but retaining the blood, bullet holes and who knows what else) and what they looked like in life are shown and a few words are said in memoriam.
The general public gets some really watered down info from the media, and while curious and little-black-hearted, in this case I support the "watering down" - this part must suck enough for those whos kids, siblings and friends were among those who didn't make it out alive without making each death, and therein someone's personal tragedy, a public display.
God, a whole week of graphic young death depictions. Some people are going to have some bad dreams, after this one, methinks. :-\
Well, some of the court professionals have been noted to cry occasionally and they take brakes far more often than before. I guess even those made of stronger stuff find this a less-than-easy thing to do. The accused seems to be among those least affected, at least visibly, but that one probably sees a job well done rather than a better part of a hundred ended lives.
I've been following the media today, and some of those whos deaths were presented today were no more than 15 years old, most were hit with multiple shots and most died from head and torso injuries. I guess there is small comfort in knowing that your kid "probably died within moments"... But then it has to suck twice as much for those whos kids didn't.
It is important though, what they are doing. Those kids are not just numbers on a sheet of paper, and... There is a story behind every digit, and that's easy to forget when dealing with the whole... And it shoudln't be forgotten.
EDIT: here is the link (http://www.viglemmerikke.no/) to an in memoriam site by one of the national newspapers. The eulogies are in Norwegian but Google Translate will help the inquisitive.
12 new autopsy reports were presented to court today. As with others presented this far, shot at close range and died of head and neck injuries.
The presentations mirror Breivik's movements on the island, and today was mainly about those killed around kjærlighetsstien.
Several witnesses who were shot by the accused and survived, want him removed from court room while they testify. The court was made aware of their wish and may grant it.
The journalists covering the case from the ourt room - they all know that every national newspaper and TV station is there, and they all know that everyone says the same thing. Yet no-one crosses a line in order to get that extra reader or viewer.
They keep the information well watered down and to the point, and for recognising that this case is not about making a name or getting the numbers up, they have my respect. I have rarely - if ever - seen such attitudes in foreign press.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 08, 2012, 01:17:44 PM
Several witnesses who were shot by the accused and survived, want him removed from court room while they testify.
Can't say that I blame them.
Indeed. It does make an already emotionally charged situation worse for them.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 07, 2012, 11:40:50 PM
It is important though, what they are doing. Those kids are not just numbers on a sheet of paper, and... There is a story behind every digit, and that's easy to forget when dealing with the whole... And it shoudln't be forgotten.
This is so true. What happened was a heartbreaking tradgedy, but it's kind of easy to lose sight of the individual victims in the face of such a huge overwhelming number. You hear that he killed 77 people, and that's what you think about, the sheer numbers. But the more important piece is that each one of those 77 people was a unique person, and probably meant the world to their family. When I think about how I would feel to lose someone I love in that senseless way, it makes me want to personally tear Anders Breivik limb from limb with my bare hands.
I guess that's why he has to be protected in jail, so that people who actually have the opportunity to rip him into small pieces won't be able to.
I think most people want justice according to the law more than they want to take the law into their own hands - after all, that is exactly what the acused claims to have done.
I also think it is a testament to the quality of our justice system, that even in a case like this, everyone's rights are protected in the best way possible - even Breiviks. Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way because, despite the tragedy of it all, I like what this whole mess and our dealing with it says about us as a society.
Oh, I agree. The way your country is handling it is admirable. I'm just saying, I can't help but picture what I would do if someone shot *my* kid at a summer camp, and it makes me feel absolutely wild. Like tearing them apart with my bare hands wild. I'm not saying that would be the correct thing to do, but that is what I would want to do, I think.
Oh, I think bloody murder would be my first response to my kid being killed too... But as the days went by, I'm sure I'd start evaluating my tragedy from different angles and settle on trusting the legal system to do its job.
I'm also impressed with those family members who sit there in the court room, not ten meters from the accused while the circumstances surrounding their kids' and siblings' deaths are being laid out... It must take a lot of strength, seeing all the pieces of the puzzle brought together, seeing the accused appear less-than-caring and not to mention tearing up something that probably hasn't even started to heal yet. Still, those who let themselves be interviewed after did not appear vengeful or hateful, even though they had every reason to be.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 08, 2012, 05:19:16 PM
Oh, I think bloody murder would be my first response to my kid being killed too... But as the days went by, I'm sure I'd start evaluating my tragedy from different angles and settle on trusting the legal system to do its job.
I'm also impressed with those family members who sit there in the court room, not ten meters from the accused while the circumstances surrounding their kids' and siblings' deaths are being laid out... It must take a lot of strength, seeing all the pieces of the puzzle brought together, seeing the accused appear less-than-caring and not to mention tearing up something that probably hasn't even started to heal yet. Still, those who let themselves be interviewed after did not appear vengeful or hateful, even though they had every reason to be.
Yes. I can't imagine. I hope that when this is all over, they will be able to get some sort of closure from having heard all of the awful details and seen Anders sentenced, but I can't imagine the pain of sitting there and listening to it all.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 08, 2012, 04:47:34 PM
I also think it is a testament to the quality of our justice system, that even in a case like this, everyone's rights are protected in the best way possible - even Breiviks. Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way because, despite the tragedy of it all, I like what this whole mess and our dealing with it says about us as a society.
Totally agree.
12 new autopsy reports presented today. Not as many died from head and neck injuries as before, suggesting Breivik was aiming for the center of mass while outdoors.
Two of the kids was only fourteen. So much for Breivik's "I'm no child killer" :-\
EDIT: Being a rather sucky courtroom re-reporter, I did not notice that there were actually two fourteen year olds - a girl, Breiviks youngest victim, and a boy.
Thanks for the updates, Asmo. Keep 'em coming :)
I shall. Later, I am also going to cross-compile some data for the best possible picture of what happened.
One of the local boat owners explains how he and several other civilians picked up the youths who tried to swim to land and assisted the police, who had trouble with their less powerful boat, in getting to the island. Several boat owners also picked up people from the island itself, risking their own lives in the process as the boats got shot at.
The job mr. Hansen and other boat owners did out there probably saved many lives that day.
Civilian boat owners also assisted the police in locating the dead in the water and fishing up clothing.
"Later that evening, Hansen saw 7-8 bodies at Storøya. Before returning home, he took one more round of the island and saw more bodies.
"Those on the Southern end disturbed us a lot. Because we have seen them earlier and they were waving us in," Hansen says." -from media coverage
Yeah... I'd lose sleep over that for a long time too, I think.
The defendant comments on Hansen's testimony:
"He says he has observed that some people tried to pick up the political extremists from the indoctrination camp. But I shot to scare. I could have hit if I so wanted. But those were warning shots, says Breivik" -from media coverage. Direct translation
Most of today's feed from Aftenposten (http://www.aftenposten.no/). This post contains a summary of witness testimony, some of which can be frightening and/or depressing.
A new witness is giving his testimony now.
"We congregated deep in the tent camp while we heard the shots fired. I was hoping it was nothing serious"
"While we stood there, Breivik crested the island. I saw him shoot a person in close quarters with his handgun"
It hapened on a gravel path 75 meters from the witness
-Direct translation from media coverage.
The witness now talks about the road back to normal life. How he was worried that Norway would be changed by this attack, but after oming back (He lives in England) those concerns grew less. He also appreciates the professional help he was provided with.
"It was completely unreal. Even though I've seen a person get shot, understanding what was happening took a while"
"We went north by Kjærlighetsstien. I and another person asked people to lay low and remove highly visible clothing. We understood that it could mean the difference between life and death"
"We moved towards the pump station. By a steep slope, there sat a young boy. He looked completely lost. We picked him up andmy buddy took care of him"
They saw a darkly clad figure standing in the woods. They wanted to find out who it was, but decided against it.
"We werre terrified"
"We were conscious of not walking into a trap. At one point we had to leave the trail because many people were shot there"
"I saw a cell phone ringing by one of the girls. That's one of the things that made the strongest impression"
-from media coverage
The group tried to get close to the water. They saw boats moving about and blue lights flashing landside, but not knowing what was going on, they did not know whether there was safety there.
They heard Breivik come up from behind. He presented himself as a police officer and told them that they were safe.
"But as I turned around, I saw him raise his rifle. I threw myself in the water and started sinking as I was wearing a wool sweater, but I managed to take it off"
"It seemed like he was aiming at me and all hope was gone. An unimaginable feeling. I thought I was done for"
There was blood in the water. Several people got shot where the vitness was standing. There he was, sitting part in the water, with the two young kids beside him.
"After some time of not hearing shots, we moved to land to warm ourselves up"
"As we sat there, a police officer came through the forest. We did not know if he was real. We were on our way back in the water, but he clearly signaled that he would not fire. He said "the lunatic" was captured"
***
On the mainland, it looked like a scene from a disaster movie. People were in panic, some lay on the trolleys(US: gurneys). There were ambulances everywhere.
***
"The first day was terrible. Seeing polie officers after that is still quite scary. Before it happened, I trusted the police, but that trust was abused by Breivik"
-from media. I left out some things that were said where the *** symbols appear.
Hold on to your butts! Here we go.
A norwegian priest and abortion protester has gone public claiming that the attack of July 22. was a result of the governments liberal abortion policy.
http://www.vl.no/samfunn/ludvig-nessa-22-juli-skyldtes-norsk-abortpolitikk/
QuoteAbortion priest Ludvig Nessa has "excomunicated" the government building a number of times and believes the terrorist bomb may have been a consequence of the Norwegian abortion policy.
Nessa and his supporters organize 13 June each year a funeral march on the anniversary of the decision to allow abortion in Norway. A staple, which also took place last year, is a type of excommunication of the government building. Now believe abortion priest that Norwegian policy on abortion can "have released forces" that caused the terror 22 July, writes Dagen.
(Google Translate)
Does he have a website on which The Asmo can insult him? :-\
Quote from: Asmodean on May 09, 2012, 04:06:11 PM
Does he have a website on which The Asmo can insult him? :-\
Yes, give him one of your patented nasty Asmo bites.
In my coverage of this case for HAF, I have rummaged through quite a lot of media - videos, newspaper articles, courtroom direct reports...
And having read the interviews with friends and parents of the dead, the few survivors who would let the media talk to them and the in memoriam sites, I must say that some asshole trying to make this about the size of his dick and the righteousness of his agenda comes very close to pissing me the fuck off... And that does take some doing.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 09, 2012, 04:06:11 PM
Does he have a website on which The Asmo can insult him? :-\
http:#//#www.abort.no#/index.php
Go get'em, boy!
EDIT: Disabled link (take out the 3 # marks to use it) don't want to be giving this arsehole any Google search hits - Tank
This is my general message to assholes like that Ludvig Nessa:
This case, it is not about YOU. It is about her
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia4.origo.no%2F-%2Fcache%2Fimage%2F1858249_h13ed03b12d2e45ee3522_v1311792072_562x450.jpeg&hash=4e0e94fa5944fd78dccfedbe6d14d7df9bae4a95)
and him
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fsky-news%2Fcontent%2FStaticFile%2Fjpg%2F2011%2FJul%2FWeek4%2F16037581.jpg&hash=47efae154df31d0dc9a1d3799c6bff7dd263829a)
and tens of others like them, who were killed in Oslo and at Utøya by someone claiming to serve his country and your god.
It's about those who loved them and cared about them, who now have to live with this loss. It's about those who survived, and the scars most of them will carry for the rest of their lives. It is about the strength, love and caring shown after the fact by the entire nation, and yes, it is about justice - not some bullshit divine kind, but our own system, the one that so far has shown that when it really matters, we can be proud of it.
Political extremism, perhaps mixed with a good dose of insanity, is what "released the forces that caused the terror", and in stead of being a dick about it and making a complete ass out of yourself, not to mention demeaning your already srewed up agenda, you should go do what any half-decent human being would: put your flower alongside the others and work to preserve those core ideals all those people lived, worked and died for.
I'm not registering at his stupid site just to be banneed in five seconds, nor am I sending him an e-mail just so he can trashcan it without reading. Let this here open letter stand as the testimony of my point of view to whomever finds it interesting.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 09, 2012, 04:46:57 PM
This is my general message to assholes like that Ludvig Nessa:
This case, it is not about YOU. It is about her
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia4.origo.no%2F-%2Fcache%2Fimage%2F1858249_h13ed03b12d2e45ee3522_v1311792072_562x450.jpeg&hash=4e0e94fa5944fd78dccfedbe6d14d7df9bae4a95)
and him
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fsky-news%2Fcontent%2FStaticFile%2Fjpg%2F2011%2FJul%2FWeek4%2F16037581.jpg&hash=47efae154df31d0dc9a1d3799c6bff7dd263829a)
and tens of others like them, who were killed in Oslo and at Utøya by someone claiming to serve his country and your god.
It's about those who loved them and cared about them, who now have to live with this loss. It's about those who survived, and the scars most of them will carry for the rest of their lives. It is about the strength, love and caring shown after the fact by the entire nation, and yes, it is about justice - not some bullshit divine kind, but our own system, the one that so far has shown that when it really matters, we can be proud of it.
Political extremism, perhaps mixed with a good dose of insanity, is what "released the forces that caused the terror", and in stead of being a dick about it and making a complete ass out of yourself, not to mention demeaning your already srewed up agenda, you should go do what any half-decent human being would: put your flower alongside the others and work to preserve those core ideals all those people lived, worked and died for.
I'm not registering at his stupid site just to be banneed in five seconds, nor am I sending him an e-mail just so he can trashcan it without reading. Let this here open letter stand as the testimony of my point of view to whomever finds it interesting.
This deserves an award.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 09, 2012, 04:46:57 PM
This is my general message to assholes like that Ludvig Nessa:
This case, it is not about YOU. It is about her
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia4.origo.no%2F-%2Fcache%2Fimage%2F1858249_h13ed03b12d2e45ee3522_v1311792072_562x450.jpeg&hash=4e0e94fa5944fd78dccfedbe6d14d7df9bae4a95)
and him
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fsky-news%2Fcontent%2FStaticFile%2Fjpg%2F2011%2FJul%2FWeek4%2F16037581.jpg&hash=47efae154df31d0dc9a1d3799c6bff7dd263829a)
and tens of others like them, who were killed in Oslo and at Utøya by someone claiming to serve his country and your god.
It's about those who loved them and cared about them, who now have to live with this loss. It's about those who survived, and the scars most of them will carry for the rest of their lives. It is about the strength, love and caring shown after the fact by the entire nation, and yes, it is about justice - not some bullshit divine kind, but our own system, the one that so far has shown that when it really matters, we can be proud of it.
Political extremism, perhaps mixed with a good dose of insanity, is what "released the forces that caused the terror", and in stead of being a dick about it and making a complete ass out of yourself, not to mention demeaning your already srewed up agenda, you should go do what any half-decent human being would: put your flower alongside the others and work to preserve those core ideals all those people lived, worked and died for.
I'm not registering at his stupid site just to be banneed in five seconds, nor am I sending him an e-mail just so he can trashcan it without reading. Let this here open letter stand as the testimony of my point of view to whomever finds it interesting.
Very well said.
It's just the truth.
You just don't fuck with something like that. Those people, they spin their bullshit, forgetting - or worse, disregarding - the fact that people were injured and killed. Real people, with real families, real friends and real lives. Real faces behind every number - many faces with many stories.
Why would the shitheads who would make mockery of their tragedy at least not familiarise themselves with as many as they could? Beause then they wouldn't have the heart to pour their shit all over the case, that's why. Or are they really so far gone that they would stand there and tell the mother of that girl on the picture that her daughter died because some woman made a decision about her body?!
Quote from: Guardian85 on May 09, 2012, 04:27:35 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on May 09, 2012, 04:06:11 PM
Does he have a website on which The Asmo can insult him? :-\
http:#//#www.abort.no#/index.php
Go get'em, boy!
EDIT: Disabled link (take out the 3 # marks to use it) don't want to be giving this arsehole any Google search hits - Tank
Was done at my request which I would normally have made to Guardian directly if he were online. I sort of did ask for the link to be posted and felt it was my responsibility to see it disabled.
Court day 16.
Again, 12 autopsy reports were presented and yet more survivors are testifying.
I will post a compilation this evening.
If any one has questions regarding any aspect of this case, feel free to ask me and I will research for you.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 10, 2012, 12:38:41 PM
Court day 16.
Again, 12 autopsy reports were presented and yet more survivors are testifying.
I will post a compilation this evening.
If any one has questions regarding any aspect of this case, feel free to ask me and I will research for you.
Nothing to ask at this point.
I would like to say how much I appreciate your commentary on this case as there is very little on it here in the UK at the moment.
I think all press inside the court right now is Norwegian, so all outside press can do is pretty much what I do - translate what the Norwegian journalists say to a different language.
I'm using most nationwide channels as control in my compilations in an attempt to avoid any one journalist's potential bias. The teams say pretty much exactly the same so far with some variation in level of detail. For instance, none but two teams forward the cause of death, and only one of them tells if death was instant or not.
The presentations of witness testimonies vary little, and usually only when a journalist can not keep up with the pace and has to re-tell a few sentences in his own words.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 09, 2012, 08:07:54 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on May 09, 2012, 04:27:35 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on May 09, 2012, 04:06:11 PM
Does he have a website on which The Asmo can insult him? :-\
http:#//#www.abort.no#/index.php
Go get'em, boy!
EDIT: Disabled link (take out the 3 # marks to use it) don't want to be giving this arsehole any Google search hits - Tank
Was done at my request which I would normally have made to Guardian directly if he were online. I sort of did ask for the link to be posted and felt it was my responsibility to see it disabled.
Should have thought of that. I blame the weeks worth of night shifts. Running in zombie mode.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 09, 2012, 04:46:57 PM
This is my general message to assholes like that Ludvig Nessa:
This case, it is not about YOU. It is about her
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia4.origo.no%2F-%2Fcache%2Fimage%2F1858249_h13ed03b12d2e45ee3522_v1311792072_562x450.jpeg&hash=4e0e94fa5944fd78dccfedbe6d14d7df9bae4a95)
and him
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fsky-news%2Fcontent%2FStaticFile%2Fjpg%2F2011%2FJul%2FWeek4%2F16037581.jpg&hash=47efae154df31d0dc9a1d3799c6bff7dd263829a)
and tens of others like them, who were killed in Oslo and at Utøya by someone claiming to serve his country and your god.
It's about those who loved them and cared about them, who now have to live with this loss. It's about those who survived, and the scars most of them will carry for the rest of their lives. It is about the strength, love and caring shown after the fact by the entire nation, and yes, it is about justice - not some bullshit divine kind, but our own system, the one that so far has shown that when it really matters, we can be proud of it.
Political extremism, perhaps mixed with a good dose of insanity, is what "released the forces that caused the terror", and in stead of being a dick about it and making a complete ass out of yourself, not to mention demeaning your already srewed up agenda, you should go do what any half-decent human being would: put your flower alongside the others and work to preserve those core ideals all those people lived, worked and died for.
I'm not registering at his stupid site just to be banneed in five seconds, nor am I sending him an e-mail just so he can trashcan it without reading. Let this here open letter stand as the testimony of my point of view to whomever finds it interesting.
*Standing ovation* Brought tears to my eyes Asmo. Very well said. Thank you so much for keeping us updated on this.
The witnesses who saw Breivik at Utøya are not allowed to hear each other's testimony until they have testified.
Today new witnesses told their stories about the events on the island, the atmosphere, the loss of friends and the road back to a normal life... Or as close as it gets.
In regard to autopsy reports, Breivik's MO is the same - most died of head injuries and most were shot several times. So far in this case, the reports have shown people shot between one and eight times, but most were hit by two and three shots.
Tomorrow, the court looks at the last autopsy reports and listens to more survivors, concluding what is probably the hardest court week for many involved.
Breivik himself appears not to be affeted, but he comments occasionally.
Breivik also came close to firing his team of lawyers beause they refused to direct his questions about AUF and their supposed indoctrination policies to a witness, which may indicate that some sparks may be flying between the accused and Lippestad & co.
My coverage of these last days of the week is going to be somewhat spotty due to a combination of a nasty kidney stone and general business, but I will also post a mile long compilation post about this court week in some days.
The media will be allowed to broadcast directly from court in two weeks' time, or so I understand. Until such time, I will update you to the best of my ability.
Thanks for posting about this. And sucks about the kidney stone. I had one of those a few years back. I heard it was like being in labor without the advantages, and they weren't joking.
I guess someone threw a shoe at him during the trial. It was only a matter of time before something like this happened. :D
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18034156
Indeed. The person who threw the shoe is one of the victims' brother. Tensions have been building in this case for a long time now, so from what I read in the local media many were relieved to see this outburst.
The person who threw the shoe has been taken care of by health personnel. The shoe missed Breivik, but did hit one of the attorneys.
Today, as I mentioned before, the last autopsy reports of those who died at Utøya were presented. Two* did not die of gunshot wounds - one drowned in an attempt to escape the island (I will try to incorporate the interview with his best friend, who survived, in the compilation) and one fell down a steep slope. The cause of his death was indetermined.
Drowning... What a way to go! :(
*I have yet to do a quality control on my data so the actual number of people who were not directly killed by Breivik may be higher. Shot or not, however, they did die by his hand.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 11, 2012, 05:43:43 PM
Today, as I mentioned before, the last autopsy reports of those who died at Utøya were presented. Two did not die of gunshot wounds - one drowned in an attempt to escape the island (I will try to incorporate the interview with his best friend, who survived, in the compilation) and one fell down a steep slope. The cause of his death was indetermined.
Goes to show what a chaotic situation it must have been, I think.
Yes and no - the survivors' testimony illustrates the chaos, but there were many who tried to swim to safety and not much is known about the circumstanes surrounding the death of the kid who fell.
There were also many injured, but only one person* died after getting to a hospital. At one point during the trial, Breivik said that he tried to shoot for arms and legs when he did not have a clear line of sight nor the opportunity to reach those trying to hide easily enough. This was done to make them expose themselves for a kill shot.
*After quality control, the number may rise
Update: My compilation has been slightly delayed by a number of factors, like proper information quality control, a seriously ill friend and me still following the case closely as tens of witnesses tell their stories.
The Oslo-part is finished, but I have to edit it a bit to make it easier to read. The final part has grown into a text wall of China, so I think I may need to cut down on re-telling witness testimony. It's a shame, really, because every story deserves to be told just as much as every other, but one does have to prioritize, does one not..?
In any case, expect part two of the compilation published late this week.
Thanks for these updates, Asmo. As heart breaking as they are. ;__;
Asmo, I truly appreciate what you're doing with this.
Their stories are heartbreaking, and deserve to be told. The time and careful detail you're putting into this is, in its way, a tribute to them. It shows you care about their lives and their stories, and that you want others to hear about them, too. I know I definitely appreciate the updates -- these were lives cut too short too soon. I thank you, for what you're doing here with the updates.
Please take all the time you need. I can only imagine that so much time spent looking through these documents takes an emotional toll on you, too.
Breivik has requested more time to explain himself and has been granted the chance to do that. The date is set for the 6th of June and, because it will most likely be about the events at utøya, this will likely delay the publishing of the third and final part of my 22.06.11 compilation.
Breivik is expected to talk about, among other things, his political radicalization. There has not been too muh information about the road he took from just some guy who loved looking in a mirror to a mass murderer, so maybe some answers will become more clear after that day.
I wonder what he is going to say. There cant possibly be a way to defend that monster...
Well, for one, calling him "monster", "animal" or anything of a kind serves nothing. His name is Anders Behring Breivik, and he is, in fact, a human, a terrorist, a mass murderer, a political extremist... There are accurate descriptions out there.
Name calling has its purpose when part of making a point, it has none other than bullying when describing someone in general.
As for defending him, legally, it's not about defending his actions (Justifying those was his job when he explained himself to the court the first time) as much as about safeguarding his rights as defendant in the Norwegian legal system. If he wishes to shed light on the details of his case and the court sees those details as relevant, it's only right to grant him time to do so. Yes, this case is huge by local and even global standards, but it wouldn't say much good about Norway as a society if we neglected to give Breivik what any other defendant in our legal system can lay claim to.
Of course, in fairness, each victim should have had the court time they deserve rather than the ten-fifteen minutes they got, but if they did get it, this case would probably go on forever... It's a rather delicate balancing act, as it appears, this case is.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 23, 2012, 05:45:13 AM
I wonder what he is going to say. There cant possibly be a way to defend that monster...
Monsters only exist in fairy tales. In fact the idea the idea that a human being who
commits atrocities is of a different order to the rest of us or somehow embodies or is imbued with wickedness
Is based on notions as primitive and unreflective as theism. In law, defences can be available such as insanity or diminished responsibility though these seem to have been ruled out here. He looks to be a psychopath, itself not that uncommon a condition, though clearly it requires other factors to be in play before it leads to such dire results.
You're right, guys. Maybe that's why it is so horrendus and frightening. A human being had no problem killing children (teenagers.)
He figured it was necessary... That's what I find the most disturbing. I did think we as a society were far beyond killing each other for political reasons. I still do, all things considered. An exception (Well, The Mother of All Exceptions, really) is, after all, just that.
Researching for my compilation, I came across the story of one seventeen year old kid who got hurt when a bullet hit a stone he was hiding behind, and had over 250 fragments in his face. Over a hundred still remain, and one can hardly see any sign of it... Bloody amazing!
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.tv2.no%2Fnyhetene%2Fjuly22%2Fmedia%2Fcache%2Fb0%2F3c%2Fb03c7eb28da43bfdada2c1fd4c65af72.jpg&hash=ff900758875fdbec50fd8b813a6cc1f7645dc3ba)
Image from TV2 (http://prosjekt.tv2.no/22-juli/personer/aktorene/overlevende/einar-bardal)
That is amazing!
I appreciate your comments (and En_Route's) about how we have an emotional tendency to see the perpetrator of heinous crimes such as this as something "other than" human. We like to believe that humans are not capable of these kinds of acts when, clearly, we are.
Wow, that kid looks amazing.
Now he'll have a story to tell his girlfriend or boyfriend. XP
Quote from: Ali on May 25, 2012, 08:01:57 PM
I appreciate your comments (and En_Route's) about how we have an emotional tendency to see the perpetrator of heinous crimes such as this as something "other than" human. We like to believe that humans are not capable of these kinds of acts when, clearly, we are.
Agreed. I remember reading Elliott Leyton's
Hunting Humans a few years ago (it's a sociological analysis of serial killers). And that was pretty much his thesis. We like to think of serial killers or mass murderers as "others" that operate outside of society. When, really, they are symptoms of a larger whole. Their acts are monstrous, but they are people.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on May 26, 2012, 02:40:13 PM
Quote from: Ali on May 25, 2012, 08:01:57 PM
I appreciate your comments (and En_Route's) about how we have an emotional tendency to see the perpetrator of heinous crimes such as this as something "other than" human. We like to believe that humans are not capable of these kinds of acts when, clearly, we are.
Agreed. I remember reading Elliott Leyton's Hunting Humans a few years ago (it's a sociological analysis of serial killers). And that was pretty much his thesis. We like to think of serial killers or mass murderers as "others" that operate outside of society. When, really, they are symptoms of a larger whole. Their acts are monstrous, but they are people.
Humans are definitely very capable of these acts, and their acts are monstrous, yes. I think most of us like to believe that humans aren't capable of these acts because the vast majority of humans would never want to commit actions like these - most of us don't understand what it takes to create someone capable of these actions. As it turns out, these mass murderers, serial killers, attackers etc are all a product of their personal background, their mental/emotional state, their biology, the society they come from, etc.
Quote from: Amicale on May 28, 2012, 12:06:41 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on May 26, 2012, 02:40:13 PM
Quote from: Ali on May 25, 2012, 08:01:57 PM
I appreciate your comments (and En_Route's) about how we have an emotional tendency to see the perpetrator of heinous crimes such as this as something "other than" human. We like to believe that humans are not capable of these kinds of acts when, clearly, we are.
Agreed. I remember reading Elliott Leyton's Hunting Humans a few years ago (it's a sociological analysis of serial killers). And that was pretty much his thesis. We like to think of serial killers or mass murderers as "others" that operate outside of society. When, really, they are symptoms of a larger whole. Their acts are monstrous, but they are people.
Humans are definitely very capable of these acts, and their acts are monstrous, yes. I think most of us like to believe that humans aren't capable of these acts because the vast majority of humans would never want to commit actions like these - most of us don't understand what it takes to create someone capable of these actions. As it turns out, these mass murderers, serial killers, attackers etc are all a product of their personal background, their mental/emotional state, their biology, the society they come from, etc.
Usually it's really shitty parenting. :<
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 29, 2012, 05:00:16 AM
Quote from: Amicale on May 28, 2012, 12:06:41 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on May 26, 2012, 02:40:13 PM
Quote from: Ali on May 25, 2012, 08:01:57 PM
I appreciate your comments (and En_Route's) about how we have an emotional tendency to see the perpetrator of heinous crimes such as this as something "other than" human. We like to believe that humans are not capable of these kinds of acts when, clearly, we are.
Agreed. I remember reading Elliott Leyton's Hunting Humans a few years ago (it's a sociological analysis of serial killers). And that was pretty much his thesis. We like to think of serial killers or mass murderers as "others" that operate outside of society. When, really, they are symptoms of a larger whole. Their acts are monstrous, but they are people.
Humans are definitely very capable of these acts, and their acts are monstrous, yes. I think most of us like to believe that humans aren't capable of these acts because the vast majority of humans would never want to commit actions like these - most of us don't understand what it takes to create someone capable of these actions. As it turns out, these mass murderers, serial killers, attackers etc are all a product of their personal background, their mental/emotional state, their biology, the society they come from, etc.
Usually it's really shitty parenting. :<
There is a vast amount of really shitty parenting around but very few mass murderers. Everyone is a product of their genetic predispositions and their environment, but the interplay between the two is dynamic and multifaceted. Environmental factors can switch on or off genes which then influence how that person responds to their environment and so on. It's reminiscent of chaos theory; one minor variation can trigger off a sequence of actions and reactions with potentially huge consequences at the end of the line.
Is it even possible to not be a (some times) shitty parent?
Quote from: Ali on May 29, 2012, 04:55:56 PM
Is it even possible to not be a (some times) shitty parent?
I would distinguish between a shitty parent and a non- shitty parent who sometimes acts shittily.
All parents screw up all children. And yes, The Asmo did just quote House.
In any case, I think it would take quite a lot of fail on the parents' and even the support system's part to make a mass murderer by themselves. You see, screwed up people tend to sort of... Screw up themselves worse than any one could ever screw them up.
True. I think I'm cranky because I just read an article about common things that parents say that they shouldn't. Like "Say you're sorry" when the child does something apology-worthy. I've already forgotten why, but apparently the "correct" action is to apologize on behalf of the child in front of the child to model something or another. Also wrong, sending the child to his/her room when they've been naughty, as you don't want the child to associate their room with negativity. I grow weary of feeling like every single thing that you can do is or could be or will be at some point "wrong" according to some "expert." But I suspect that's a different thing than the "shitty parenting" that may or not lead to mass murder (or anyway, I hope so. I fervently hope that in 20 years T isn't on TV stating that he went on a killing spree because I sometimes made him apologize to people and sent him to his room when his behavior was unfit for civil company.)
Quote from: Ali on May 29, 2012, 05:46:44 PM
True. I think I'm cranky because I just read an article about common things that parents say that they shouldn't. Like "Say you're sorry" when the child does something apology-worthy. I've already forgotten why, but apparently the "correct" action is to apologize on behalf of the child in front of the child to model something or another. Also wrong, sending the child to his/her room when they've been naughty, as you don't want the child to associate their room with negativity. I grow weary of feeling like every single thing that you can do is or could be or will be at some point "wrong" according to some "expert." But I suspect that's a different thing than the "shitty parenting" that may or not lead to mass murder (or anyway, I hope so. I fervently hope that in 20 years T isn't on TV stating that he went on a killing spree because I sometimes made him apologize to people and sent him to his room when his behavior was unfit for civil company.)
Geeze, I totally disagree with that. My mother made me apologize or sent me to my room when I did something wrong, and I didn't turn out to be a mass murderer. Heck, I am thankful my mother was strict with my brother and me as children. I feel like it made us more respectful people.
Having a child associate their room with negativity is just stupid, especially with all of their toys and their bed that makes is a good thing.
I'm of a different opinion on that issue - I'm quite happy with my upbringing not being strict at all. As a result, I can claim my moral compass to be largely calibrated by me and my sense of honor and integrity largely derived from my own interpretation of the consequences of choices I and those around me have made.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 29, 2012, 10:08:42 PM
I'm of a different opinion on that issue - I'm quite happy with my upbringing not being strict at all. As a result, I can claim my moral compass to be largely calibrated by me and my sense of honor and integrity largely derived from my own interpretation of the consequences of choices I and those around me have made.
Same here. I raised myself since 12, so everything i do, i have to take responsibility for. I actually kind of like that.
i learn from my own mistakes.