Although evolution is against science and logic, yet countless people follow it in this age of science and mind!
May anyone who thinks of this myth interpret birth and life and death which are the evidence of its fallacy?
Thanks in advance.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 11:58:12 AM
Although evolution is against science and logic, yet countless people follow it in this age of science and mind!
May anyone who thinks of this myth interpret birth and life and death which are the evidence of its fallacy?
Thanks in advance.
Sorry but the part I have bolded make no sense at all, I do not understand the point you are attempting to make :(
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 12:01:18 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 11:58:12 AM
Although evolution is against science and logic, yet countless people follow it in this age of science and mind!
May anyone who thinks of this myth interpret birth and life and death which are the evidence of its fallacy?
Thanks in advance.
Sorry but the part I have bolded make no sense at all, I do not understand the point you are attempting to make :(
Of course the master of evolution is the first one to post.
I mean if you think yourself a master of evolution, reconcile between it and birth and life and death.
All the best
Would love for you to explain? This sounds like an opinion with nothing to back it up. If you are going to say evolution is false, and make such a bold statement, you should share some kind of resource to back it up. And please dont say it is because some old book says so.
Years of scientific research by some of the most brilliant minds mankind has to offer is at stake.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Of course the master of evolution is the first one to post.
I mean if you think yourself a master of evolution, reconcile between it and birth and life and death.
All the best
Let me see if I understand your point first, as it would be a waste of time to continue if we don't understand each others point of view.
Are you asking me to explain the relationship between birth, life and death and how this relationship leads to evolution?
Quote from: Xjeepguy on September 26, 2011, 12:06:02 PM
Would love for you to explain? This sounds like an opinion with nothing to back it up. If you are going to say evolution is false, and make such a bold statement, you should share some kind of resource to back it up. And please dont say it is because some old book says so.
Years of scientific research by some of the most brilliant minds mankind has to offer is at stake.
No, this is not opinion.
When we talk about logic, we talk about facts.
You ask me for resources then exclude old ones and after 10 years the new resources will be old ones.
Fact is a fact at all times.
I address your minds, so I wait replies from minds.
To make the case clearer, may you explain the main concept of evolution?
Happy Forever
You still have not proven anything. You gave your opinion, and nothing to back it up. By old book I was referring to the bible/qu'ran/torah/grimms fairy tales etc.
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 12:09:22 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Of course the master of evolution is the first one to post.
I mean if you think yourself a master of evolution, reconcile between it and birth and life and death.
All the best
Let me see if I understand your point first, as it would be a waste of time to continue if we don't understand each others point of view.
Are you asking me to explain the relationship between birth, life and death and how this relationship leads to evolution?
You're right it will be a waste of time if we don't understand each other.
As you know the aim of evolution is to explain our existence (but in a mythical way), but these three facts contradict its false concept.
So the question is how do you follow evolution although it
contradicts the three facts "birth, life and death"?
Quote from: Xjeepguy on September 26, 2011, 01:07:21 PM
You still have not proven anything. You gave your opinion, and nothing to back it up. By old book I was referring to the bible/qu'ran/torah/grimms fairy tales etc.
Yes, I haven't. I have just started discussing by setting a question not by providing an evidence.
Who mentioned old books?!
You
This is a thread to discuss logically and scientifically. ;)
You are not speaking clearly. You may think that you are, but we are telling you that we'd don't understand what you are saying. We can't respond if we don't know what you're saying. ???
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on September 26, 2011, 01:47:54 PM
You are not speaking clearly. You may think that you are, but we are telling you that we'd don't understand what you are saying. We can't respond if we don't know what you're saying. ???
A simple question for you:
If you claim that there is no creator and you are evolved, how do you evolve yourself and why will you die?
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 01:51:27 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on September 26, 2011, 01:47:54 PM
You are not speaking clearly. You may think that you are, but we are telling you that we'd don't understand what you are saying. We can't respond if we don't know what you're saying. ???
A simple question for you:
If you claim that there is no creator and you are evolved, how do you evolve yourself and why will you die?
I don't evolve. Evolution is a process over the course of many generations. I develop and grow, but not in the same sense as "evolution" from a scientific perspective. I develop and grow because my DNA has been programmed to do this, I'll die because my DNA has a finite ability to replicate itself properly.
Not that I'm an expert on evolution, but I don't claim to be.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on September 26, 2011, 01:56:32 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 01:51:27 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on September 26, 2011, 01:47:54 PM
You are not speaking clearly. You may think that you are, but we are telling you that we'd don't understand what you are saying. We can't respond if we don't know what you're saying. ???
A simple question for you:
If you claim that there is no creator and you are evolved, how do you evolve yourself and why will you die?
I don't evolve. Evolution is a process over the course of many generations. I develop and grow, but not in the same sense as "evolution" from a scientific perspective. I develop and grow because my DNA has been programmed to do this, I'll die because my DNA has a finite ability to replicate itself properly.
Not that I'm an expert on evolution, but I don't claim to be.
Thanks for your reply.
May I analyse it logically?
Your DNA is programmed, who is the programmer?
Your DNA made itself then you made yourself, if no, Who created you?
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 01:15:34 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 12:09:22 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Of course the master of evolution is the first one to post.
I mean if you think yourself a master of evolution, reconcile between it and birth and life and death.
All the best
Let me see if I understand your point first, as it would be a waste of time to continue if we don't understand each others point of view.
Are you asking me to explain the relationship between birth, life and death and how this relationship leads to evolution?
You're right it will be a waste of time if we don't understand each other.
As you know the aim of evolution is to explain our existence (but in a mythical way), but these three facts contradict its false concept.
So the question is how do you follow evolution although it contradicts the three facts "birth, life and death"?
I still don't really understand what you are getting at. Please explain why you think the Theory of Evolutuion (ToE) contradicts the facts of "birth, life and death".
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:01:12 PM
May I analyse it logically?
Your DNA is programmed,
No it is not, it selected for by the survival of one's ancestors.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:01:12 PMwho is the programmer?
There was no programmer. The DNA within all organisms is the result of natural selection of beneficial physical/behavioural traites.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:01:12 PM
Your DNA made itself then you made yourself, if no, Who created you?
My parents created me. I have inherited their DNA and epi-genetic patterns.
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 02:09:48 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 01:15:34 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 12:09:22 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Of course the master of evolution is the first one to post.
I mean if you think yourself a master of evolution, reconcile between it and birth and life and death.
All the best
Let me see if I understand your point first, as it would be a waste of time to continue if we don't understand each others point of view.
Are you asking me to explain the relationship between birth, life and death and how this relationship leads to evolution?
You're right it will be a waste of time if we don't understand each other.
As you know the aim of evolution is to explain our existence (but in a mythical way), but these three facts contradict its false concept.
So the question is how do you follow evolution although it contradicts the three facts "birth, life and death"?
I still don't really understand what you are getting at. Please explain why you think the Theory of Evolutuion (ToE) contradicts the facts of "birth, life and death".
Brother Tank,
I was waiting for you.
Evolution is development through billions of years.
This mythical statement is against life as there is no development at all.
You are not billions years old.
You will die and this is against the word "evolution".
Happy Forever
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:16:55 PM
Brother Tank,
I was waiting for you.
Evolution is development through billions of years.
This mythical statement is against life as there is no development at all.
You are not billions years old.
You will die and this is against the word "evolution".
Happy Forever
I think I'm getting to understand something. Let me ask you this.
"What evolves?"
is it
A) The gene pool that gives rise to an organism within a species.
B) An individual organism, me or you for example.
C) Something else?
I ask this question as at the moment I suspect that you don't actually understand what evolution, taught correctly, really is. This is not your fault, but I need to know if you actually understand what the word evolution actually means. Please be patient with me. On many occassions I have had to deal with Christaisn and Muslims who have never actually been taught what evolution actually is. So I'm trying to understand what you have been taught, because so far, what you have written indicates you do not really understand the ToE.
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 02:14:31 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:01:12 PM
May I analyse it logically?
Your DNA is programmed,
No it is not, it selected for by the survival of one's ancestors.
This is not a logical statement.
it selected for by the survival of one's ancestors. To turn it active, it will be:
the survival selected DNA.
Meaningless
QuoteQuote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:01:12 PMwho is the programmer?
There was no programmer. The DNA within all organisms is the result of natural selection of beneficial physical/behavioural traites.
No, you have no right to set your opnions, we discuss facts.
Natural selectionAgain this is not a logical statement. Nature doesn't select and selection is not natural.
What is nature?
QuoteQuote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:01:12 PM
Your DNA made itself then you made yourself, if no, Who created you?
My parents created me. I have inherited their DNA and epi-genetic patterns.
your parents and no creature can create anything because if we didn't create ourselves, how can we create others?
Your parents produced you not created you.
Who is your Creator?
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 02:25:12 PM
I think I'm getting to understand something. Let me ask you this.
"What evolves?"
is it
A) The gene pool that gives rise to an organism within a species.
B) An individual organism, me or you for example.
C) Something else?
I ask this question as at the moment I suspect that you don't actually understand what evolution, taught correctly, really is. This is not your fault, but I need to know if you actually understand what the word evolution actually means. Please be patient with me. On many occassions I have had to deal with Christaisn and Muslims who have never actually been taught what evolution actually is. So I'm trying to understand what you have been taught, because so far, what you have written indicates you do not really understand the ToE.
Thanks my polite brother.
I ask you too to be patient with me.
I know evolution very well.
Nothing of these are evolved because nothing is evolved at all.
These things are inanimates can't deferentiate between development and distruction and stableness and we the only minded watch without interfering.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Of course the master of evolution is the first one to post.
I think I understand this, it's a metaphor.
The first one to post was the first wibbly wobbly amino combo cell thingy wingy to form and split starting the evolutionary process.
He knew what he was doing that guy.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:25:30 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 02:14:31 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:01:12 PM
May I analyse it logically?
Your DNA is programmed,
No it is not, it selected for by the survival of one's ancestors.
This is not a logical statement.
it selected for by the survival of one's ancestors.
To turn it active, it will be:
the survival selected DNA.
Meaningless
unfortunately it is a perfectly reasonable statement, however your education appears to be flawed with regard to inheritance.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:25:30 PM
QuoteQuote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:01:12 PMwho is the programmer?
There was no programmer. The DNA within all organisms is the result of natural selection of beneficial physical/behavioural traites.
No, you have no right to set your opnions, we discuss facts.
Natural selection
Again this is not a logical statement. Nature doesn't select and selection is not natural.
What is nature?
So it is your opinion that DNA is programmed. I thought we were discussing facts, not opinions. For you to support your assertion that DNA is programmed you would have to have irrefutable proof of a programmer. unfortunately you do not have irrefutable proof of a programmer. And you can't just point at DNA and say it is programmed simply because, in your
opinion, it looks like it is.
Nature is all that we live in. Nature does select. Take a heard of antelope and a pride of lions. The fastest most cunning lion will catch the slowest most unwary antilope, as long as the fastest lion is quicker than the slowest antilope. So nature selects for faster and smater lions and antilopes.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:25:30 PM
QuoteQuote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:01:12 PM
Your DNA made itself then you made yourself, if no, Who created you?
My parents created me. I have inherited their DNA and epi-genetic patterns.
your parents and no creature can create anything because if we didn't create ourselves, how can we create others?
Your parents produced you not created you.
Who is your Creator?
I think we have a language problem here. My parents casued me to be born. I inherited my genes from my parents, that is why I used the word create. My parents produced me, nothing else.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 26, 2011, 02:34:40 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Of course the master of evolution is the first one to post.
I think I understand this, it's a metaphor.
The first one to post was the first wibbly wobbly amino combo cell thingy wingy to form and split starting the evolutionary process.
He knew what he was doing that guy.
You are the first one to insult and hope you are the last.
This is a logical scientific thread, such posts will be completely ignored.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:34:26 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 02:25:12 PM
I think I'm getting to understand something. Let me ask you this.
"What evolves?"
is it
A) The gene pool that gives rise to an organism within a species.
B) An individual organism, me or you for example.
C) Something else?
I ask this question as at the moment I suspect that you don't actually understand what evolution, taught correctly, really is. This is not your fault, but I need to know if you actually understand what the word evolution actually means. Please be patient with me. On many occassions I have had to deal with Christaisn and Muslims who have never actually been taught what evolution actually is. So I'm trying to understand what you have been taught, because so far, what you have written indicates you do not really understand the ToE.
Thanks my polite brother.
I ask you too to be patient with me.
I know evolution very well.
Nothing of these are evolved because nothing is evolved at all.
These things are inanimates can't deferentiate between development and distruction and stableness and we the only minded watch without interfering.
Ok, if I understand you correctly you don't think evolution happens at all?
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:34:26 PM
I know evolution very well.
From what I have read so far, you do not seem to know evolution
via natural selection very well. Your words indicate that you are understanding evolution as some sort of Lamarkian process that takes place over the course of an individual organism's life.
If this is how you perceive evolution as it relates to modern biological thought, you must open a book before attempting to refute an entirely different concept (i.e. evolution via natural selection).
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 26, 2011, 02:34:40 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Of course the master of evolution is the first one to post.
I think I understand this, it's a metaphor.
The first one to post was the first wibbly wobbly amino combo cell thingy wingy to form and split starting the evolutionary process.
He knew what he was doing that guy.
Shame on you Pudding ;)
HF is working in her second language, I have difficulty with your posts sometimes and I've spoken English almost all my life :)
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:39:36 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 26, 2011, 02:34:40 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Of course the master of evolution is the first one to post.
I think I understand this, it's a metaphor.
The first one to post was the first wibbly wobbly amino combo cell thingy wingy to form and split starting the evolutionary process.
He knew what he was doing that guy.
You are the first one to insult and hope you are the last.
This is a logical scientific thread, such posts will be completely ignored.
HF, The Magic Pudding was not insulting you. He was making a satirical reference to a BBC TV series Dr Who. The first person who insulted anybody in this thread was you by sarcastically referring to me as 'Master of Evolution', but I expect you did that quite unintentionally, so I obviously let it pass.
Taking or giving offence is incredibly easy on a forum so best just to walk past something you think is offensive and not comment on it as that can cause a thread to derail and start a flame war.
If you feel a post is insulting, do not respond to it, report it to the staff. We know the members here and can explain what is happening.
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 02:38:43 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:25:30 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 02:14:31 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:01:12 PM
May I analyse it logically?
Your DNA is programmed,
No it is not, it selected for by the survival of one's ancestors.
This is not a logical statement.
it selected for by the survival of one's ancestors.
To turn it active, it will be:
the survival selected DNA.
Meaningless
unfortunately it is a perfectly reasonable statement, however your education appears to be flawed with regard to inheritance.
Is education your source of knowledge or science?
You are educated what you are educated whether right or wtong, I pick the right, facts only.
To assure it as a reasonable statement requires you to reply to the saying of logic.
QuoteSo it is your opinion that DNA is programmed. I thought we were discussing facts, not opinions. For you to support your assertion that DNA is programmed you would have to have irrefutable proof of a programmer. unfortunately you do not have irrefutable proof of a programmer. And you can't just point at DNA and say it is programmed simply because, in your opinion, it looks like it is.
My irrefutable reply is the role of DNA, tell me what is its role and consider it the proof.
QuoteNature is all that we live in. Nature does select. Take a heard of antelope and a pride of lions. The fastest most cunning lion will catch the slowest most unwary antilope, as long as the fastest lion is quicker than the slowest antilope. So nature selects for faster and smater lions and antilopes.
Nature is the law of life and the creation itself.
To say that nature as the law of life selects, this is meaningless. To say nature as creation, lion and antilope, yes they do select by using their abilities like eyes, ears, mind and physical abilities. What is the relation between this and the topic here?
QuoteI think we have a language problem here. My parents casued me to be born. I inherited my genes from my parents, that is why I used the word create. My parents produced me, nothing else.
Then... I am still waiting for the answer, Who created you?
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 02:43:40 PM
Ok, if I understand you correctly you don't think evolution happens at all?
Yes of course, this is very clear from the title.
P.S Don't mix between evolution and adaptation.
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 02:52:34 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 02:39:36 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 26, 2011, 02:34:40 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Of course the master of evolution is the first one to post.
I think I understand this, it's a metaphor.
The first one to post was the first wibbly wobbly amino combo cell thingy wingy to form and split starting the evolutionary process.
He knew what he was doing that guy.
You are the first one to insult and hope you are the last.
This is a logical scientific thread, such posts will be completely ignored.
HF, The Magic Pudding was not insulting you. He was making a satirical reference to a BBC TV series Dr Who. The first person who insulted anybody in this thread was you by sarcastically referring to me as 'Master of Evolution', but I expect you did that quite unintentionally, so I obviously let it pass.
Taking or giving offence is incredibly easy on a forum so best just to walk past something you think is offensive and not comment on it as that can cause a thread to derail and start a flame war.
If you feel a post is insulting, do not respond to it, report it to the staff. We know the members here and can explain what is happening.
Oh, of course I don't mean any insult, I think you really the master of evolution here in this forum. (I mean by master, the teacher)
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 02:52:34 PM
Taking or giving offence is incredibly easy on a forum so best just to walk past something you think is offensive and not comment on it as that can cause a thread to derail and start a flame war.
If you feel a post is insulting, do not respond to it, report it to the staff. We know the members here and can explain what is happening.
Thank you. :-[
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 02:44:58 PM
From what I have read so far, you do not seem to know evolution via natural selection very well. Your words indicate that you are understanding evolution as some sort of Lamarkian process that takes place over the course of an individual organism's life.
If this is how you perceive evolution as it relates to modern biological thought, you must open a book before attempting to refute an entirely different concept (i.e. evolution via natural selection).
I know this invented concept, may you prove it through your creation?
How are you created by natural selection and this false concept is against your creation and against science and against logic?
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:11:54 PM
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 02:44:58 PM
From what I have read so far, you do not seem to know evolution via natural selection very well. Your words indicate that you are understanding evolution as some sort of Lamarkian process that takes place over the course of an individual organism's life.
If this is how you perceive evolution as it relates to modern biological thought, you must open a book before attempting to refute an entirely different concept (i.e. evolution via natural selection).
I know this invented concept, may you prove it through your creation?
How are you created by natural selection and this false concept is against your creation and against science and against logic?
I'm trying to understand your questions.
Are you asking how to prove the theory of evolution by natural selection by using my existence as an individual Homo sapien as an example? Can I cite Homo erectus, Homo habilis et al as source material?
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 03:21:44 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:11:54 PM
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 02:44:58 PM
From what I have read so far, you do not seem to know evolution via natural selection very well. Your words indicate that you are understanding evolution as some sort of Lamarkian process that takes place over the course of an individual organism's life.
If this is how you perceive evolution as it relates to modern biological thought, you must open a book before attempting to refute an entirely different concept (i.e. evolution via natural selection).
I know this invented concept, may you prove it through your creation?
How are you created by natural selection and this false concept is against your creation and against science and against logic?
I'm trying to understand your questions.
Are you asking how to prove the theory of evolution by natural selection by using my existence as an individual Homo sapien as an example? Can I cite Homo erectus, Homo habilis et al as source material?
The question is clear, I am asking you to tell me how are you created.
No materials needed, I ask you I don't want parroting myths, I want logical scientific explanations from you about you, call yourself whatever you like, I ask you to explain you.
No one really knows how the universe started....to say it was god is to just to shove god in to fill a gap; rather sacrilegious if you ask me ;)
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:32:22 PM
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 03:21:44 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:11:54 PM
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 02:44:58 PM
From what I have read so far, you do not seem to know evolution via natural selection very well. Your words indicate that you are understanding evolution as some sort of Lamarkian process that takes place over the course of an individual organism's life.
If this is how you perceive evolution as it relates to modern biological thought, you must open a book before attempting to refute an entirely different concept (i.e. evolution via natural selection).
I know this invented concept, may you prove it through your creation?
How are you created by natural selection and this false concept is against your creation and against science and against logic?
I'm trying to understand your questions.
Are you asking how to prove the theory of evolution by natural selection by using my existence as an individual Homo sapien as an example? Can I cite Homo erectus, Homo habilis et al as source material?
The question is clear, I am asking you to tell me how are you created.
No materials needed, I ask you I don't want parroting myths, I want logical scientific explanations from you about you, call yourself whatever you like, I ask you to explain you.
So it seems that the debate is not about evolution and concerns abiogenesis, then?
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 03:34:49 PM
No one really knows how the universe started....to say it was god is to just to shove god in to fill a gap; rather sacrilegious if you ask me ;)
Of course we it is hard to know by ourselves because no one was there.
But....
Here you are, how are you created?
You are a perfect example of the great creation of The Creator.
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 03:37:16 PM
So it seems that the debate is not about evolution and concerns abiogenesis, then?
It is aboout that false concept which is invented to deny The Creator.
Evolution is a word and as a concept is meaningless even doesn't exist in Arabic.
It means a thing develops itself, do you develop yourself?
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:38:52 PM
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 03:34:49 PM
No one really knows how the universe started....to say it was god is to just to shove god in to fill a gap; rather sacrilegious if you ask me ;)
Of course we it is hard to know by ourselves because no one was there.
But....
Here you are, how are you created?
You are a perfect example of the great creation of The Creator.
If you can't prove using anything other than faith that a creator actually exists then my statement still stands. There is no reason to assume I was created.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:42:12 PM
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 03:37:16 PM
So it seems that the debate is not about evolution and concerns abiogenesis, then?
It is aboout that false concept which is invented to deny The Creator.
Evolution is a word and as a concept is meaningless even doesn't exist in Arabic.
It means a thing develops itself, do you develop yourself?
Evolution refers to the biological adaptation of organisms...I'm sure there is a scientific word for it in Arabic (the language is still used, correct?).
Evolution does not relate to if a god exists or not nor does it relate to how the universe started.
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 03:46:22 PM
If you can't prove using anything other than faith that a creator actually exists then my statement still stands. There is no reason to assume I was created.
What is creation?
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 03:48:23 PM
Evolution refers to the biological adaptation of organisms...I'm sure there is a scientific word for it in Arabic (the language is still used, correct?).
Evolution does not relate to if a god exists or not nor does it relate to how the universe started.
Evolution is invented to deny The Creator.
I am talking about your own creation.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:54:57 PM
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 03:48:23 PM
Evolution refers to the biological adaptation of organisms...I'm sure there is a scientific word for it in Arabic (the language is still used, correct?).
Evolution does not relate to if a god exists or not nor does it relate to how the universe started.
Evolution is invented to deny The Creator.
I am talking about your own creation.
I have no clue what you are talking about "my own creation" but evolution was not developed as part of a conspiracy to end theistic religions. I personally know a lot of Christians who accept evolution as true because they can't deny the science of it without knowingly ignoring reality; and it only conflicts with a very fundamental understanding of the bible so there really is no more conflict than some other things judeo-christians accept as real. The creation story in the koran is similarly not in direct conflict with evolution....in fact, I've had more than one Muslim try to convince me that the koran describes evolution.
Btw, take not that one of our main rules at HAF is no preaching...that means we all expect people to back up what they say with facts and reason rather than just making statements.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:54:57 PM
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 03:48:23 PM
Evolution refers to the biological adaptation of organisms...I'm sure there is a scientific word for it in Arabic (the language is still used, correct?).
Evolution does not relate to if a god exists or not nor does it relate to how the universe started.
Evolution is invented to deny The Creator.
I am talking about your own creation.
I think the burden of proof is on you at this point. Can you answer your own question with logical, scientific proof, just like you asked us to? Or, are you going to cite god?
Very preachy, this one. And definitely has abiogenesis confused with evolution. Should be fun to watch this for what time this person sticks around on here.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:32:22 PM
The question is clear, I am asking you to tell me how are you created.
Sperm meets egg, DNA meets DNA and nine months later the joy is bundled. That is how I was created.
My DNA is different from that of my parents (For instance, my face is not the average of my mother's and my father's), so I am a little different from them.
Let us say one of the differences is that my legs are slightly longer than their compared to the rest of the body. My hypothetical children, who in turn will be somewhat different from me, but still inherit certain characteristics may inherit the slightly longer legs and pass it on to their hypothetical children.
Humans in the civilized world at least avoid natural selection by ways of technology, but in a primitive society, if long legs gave me an advantage, it would make me more attractive for mating (Or a better hunter or a better fighter or any other slight advantage over the rest for improved survival) and my genes would be passed on to a larger extent than those of some bloke's with shorter legs, thus (eventually exponentially) increasing the long-leg to short-leg ratio within the area.
There. Evolution semi-explained using me.
HF
We need to establish a 'base line' of understanding to progress the discussion. So I would like to know if you would agree that all organisms (excepting clones) are genetically unique?
Happy Forever is a troll. He/She is not interested in a discussion.
He/She is pissing his/her pants laughing at people trying to make some sense of the original post.
Tank you are a very patient person.
Quote from: Stevil on September 26, 2011, 06:32:24 PM
Tank you are a very patient person.
...And he has a shiney banhammer to prove it :P
Happy Forever, going by your posts it seems like you do not understand what ToE is, and until you understand why, this is going nowhere.
Do you, for instance, think that evolutionary theory says that birds can give birth to orangatangues?I don't mean to try to be funny here, but from my experience debating creationists, they really don't know what ToE.
Did you study evolution in school or did you just look at creationist material online? If you wish, I can recommend some quick YouTube videos which are not promoting atheism but solely about evolutionary theory and how selective pressures work into that picture.
You also seem to be confusing abiogenesis with biological evolution when evolutionary theory does not extend into abiogenesis (or in other words, how life came from non life).
You also call evolutionary theory a creation myth ??? It's no such thing. It's based on science.
Also, there are theistic evolutionists, they don't see it as incompatible. Science doesn't deal with the 'why we're here' questions. It's just a model of reality based on observations and the scientific method.
Also, your "logical" approach is flawed, especially if you're ignorant in the subject. You need to take the scientific approach, which is based on observed occurrences and not some reasoning that "seems to be right". When you take that kind of flawed approach, you leave yourself vulnerable to assuming that since you think that something couldn't have happened, therefore it didn't happen. Reality of course doesn't work that way.
Could you elaborate further on why you think evolutionary theory is false?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 07:12:37 PM
Happy Forever, going by your posts it seems like you do not understand what ToE is, and until you understand why, this is going nowhere.
Do you, for instance, think that evolutionary theory says that birds can give birth to orangatangues?I don't mean to try to be funny here, but from my experience debating creationists, they really don't know what ToE.
Did you study evolution in school or did you just look at creationist material online? If you wish, I can recommend some quick YouTube videos which are not promoting atheism but solely about evolutionary theory and how selective pressures work into that picture.
You also seem to be confusing abiogenesis with biological evolution when evolutionary theory does not extend into abiogenesis (or in other words, how life came from non life).
You also call evolutionary theory a creation myth ??? It's no such thing. It's based on science.
Also, there are theistic evolutionists, they don't see it as incompatible. Science doesn't deal with the 'why we're here' questions. It's just a model of reality based on observations and the scientific method.
Also, your "logical" approach is flawed, especially if you're ignorant in the subject. You need to take the scientific approach, which is based on observed occurrences and not some reasoning that "seems to be right". When you take that kind of flawed approach, you leave yourself vulnerable to assuming that since you think that something couldn't have happened, therefore it didn't happen. Reality of course doesn't work that way.
Could you elaborate further on why you think evolutionary theory is false?
I find no proof or definition to debate you here, you just say evolution is a theory.
May you defiine evolution to start debate as I know it has many definition and the definition I have is:
Development through billions of years by chance or natural selection.
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 04:00:16 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:54:57 PM
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 03:48:23 PM
Evolution refers to the biological adaptation of organisms...I'm sure there is a scientific word for it in Arabic (the language is still used, correct?).
Evolution does not relate to if a god exists or not nor does it relate to how the universe started.
Evolution is invented to deny The Creator.
I am talking about your own creation.
I think the burden of proof is on you at this point. Can you answer your own question with logical, scientific proof, just like you asked us to? Or, are you going to cite god?
No, the burden of showing your myth is over you.
Bricks and cement and sand and water combined togather and made a house without agreeing.
I tell you there must be a builder who built that house and you tell no, it is done by itself and it's me who should prove?!!
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 03:59:29 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:54:57 PM
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 03:48:23 PM
Evolution refers to the biological adaptation of organisms...I'm sure there is a scientific word for it in Arabic (the language is still used, correct?).
Evolution does not relate to if a god exists or not nor does it relate to how the universe started.
Evolution is invented to deny The Creator.
I am talking about your own creation.
I have no clue what you are talking about "my own creation" but evolution was not developed as part of a conspiracy to end theistic religions. I personally know a lot of Christians who accept evolution as true because they can't deny the science of it without knowingly ignoring reality; and it only conflicts with a very fundamental understanding of the bible so there really is no more conflict than some other things judeo-christians accept as real. The creation story in the koran is similarly not in direct conflict with evolution....in fact, I've had more than one Muslim try to convince me that the koran describes evolution.
Btw, take not that one of our main rules at HAF is no preaching...that means we all expect people to back up what they say with facts and reason rather than just making statements.
Who mentioned religion?
I ask you a simple question:
You are created or evolved?
What is creation and what is evolution?
Waiting for a logical answer.
Quote from: Asmodean on September 26, 2011, 04:41:54 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:32:22 PM
The question is clear, I am asking you to tell me how are you created.
Sperm meets egg, DNA meets DNA and nine months later the joy is bundled. That is how I was created.
Thank you so much. By this and by using mind, there is no doubt that we are created by The Creator.
QuoteHumans in the civilized world at least avoid natural selection by ways of technology, but in a primitive society, if long legs gave me an advantage, it would make me more attractive for mating (Or a better hunter or a better fighter or any other slight advantage over the rest for improved survival) and my genes would be passed on to a larger extent than those of some bloke's with shorter legs, thus (eventually exponentially) increasing the long-leg to short-leg ratio within the area.
This is mythical, meaningless a fable cannot be accepted by any mind.
What natural selection and what attractive mating and hunter and improved survival?!!!!! ???
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 06:17:40 PM
HF
We need to establish a 'base line' of understanding to progress the discussion. So I would like to know if you would agree that all organisms (excepting clones) are genetically unique?
Everything in this life is unique, we are not products of a factory, we are the great creation of Allah The One.
Nothing is a copy of another thing. Every hair drop of rain is unique, every cloud tiny or big is unique will never be repeated in its shape or its path or its size or its time. Every sand is unique in its shape and its size and its place and time. Every hair of you is unique not similar to any of your hair or others' hair, it is unique in its color or its shape or its size or its place or its time.....
Allah is The Great Creator.
Subhan Allah.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:06:25 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on September 26, 2011, 04:41:54 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:32:22 PM
The question is clear, I am asking you to tell me how are you created.
Sperm meets egg, DNA meets DNA and nine months later the joy is bundled. That is how I was created.
Thank you so much. By this and by using mind, there is no doubt that we are created by The Creator.
QuoteHumans in the civilized world at least avoid natural selection by ways of technology, but in a primitive society, if long legs gave me an advantage, it would make me more attractive for mating (Or a better hunter or a better fighter or any other slight advantage over the rest for improved survival) and my genes would be passed on to a larger extent than those of some bloke's with shorter legs, thus (eventually exponentially) increasing the long-leg to short-leg ratio within the area.
This is mythical, meaningless a fable cannot be accepted by any mind.
What natural selection and what attractive mating and hunter and improved survival?!!!!! ???
Where does your quotation about leg length come from?
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:12:23 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 06:17:40 PM
HF
We need to establish a 'base line' of understanding to progress the discussion. So I would like to know if you would agree that all organisms (excepting clones) are genetically unique?
Everything in this life is unique, we are not products of a factory, we are the great creation of Allah The One.
Nothing is a copy of another thing. Every hair drop of rain is unique, every cloud tiny or big is unique will never be repeated in its shape or its path or its size or its time. Every sand is unique in its shape and its size and its place and time. Every hair of you is unique not similar to any of your hair or others' hair, it is unique in its color or its shape or its size or its place or its time.....
Allah is The Great Creator.
Subhan Allah.
That's not what I asked. Please answer the question I asked or I think my paitience with you will start to run out.
We need to establish a 'base line' of understanding to progress the discussion.
So I would like to know if you would agree that all organisms (excepting clones) are genetically unique?
Two more points I would like to add:
If there wasn't the life and death cycle, there would be no change, and evolution is the result of the accumulated change over generations
of the species or an isolated group, either geographically or genetically (at which point it can be said to be a different species). It's incorrect to say that individuals evolve. That's Lamarkian and has be proven to be false (at least for genetic inheritence, there's still some measure of Lamarckism in epigenetic inheritence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic), which both influences gene expression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_expression) and is inheritable) Worth a read.
Again, science doesn't deal with the philosophical 'why' questions. No serious biologist is going to take a worldview based on evolution (why are we here, where are we going, etc.) That's bordering on scientism, and such a thing isn't really taken seriously in the first place.
What are your thoughts on microevolution? And macroevolution?
QuoteI find no proof or definition to debate you here, you just say evolution is a theory.
May you defiine evolution to start debate as I know it has many definition and the definition I have is:
Development through billions of years by chance or natural selection.
Theory as in collection of facts, and it's a strong theory, with huge explanatory power. It's also very susceptible to falsifiability, which makes it interesting.
Mutations occur by chance, but selective pressures are not based on chance.
I think wikipedia defines what evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution) is quite well:
QuoteEvolution (or more specifically biological or organic evolution) is the change over time in one or more inherited traits found in populations of individuals. Inherited traits are distinguishing characteristics, for example anatomical, biochemical or behavioural, that are passed on from one generation to the next. Evolution requires variation of inherited traits within a population. New variants of inherited traits can enter a population from outside populations, and this is referred to as gene flow.Alternatively, new variants can come into being from within a population in at least three ways: mutation of DNA, epimutation (a change inherited in some way other than through the sequence of nucleotides in DNA), and genetic recombination. Natural selection, where different inherited traits cause different rates of survival and reproduction, can cause new variants to become common in a population. Other evolutionary mechanisms can cause a variant to become common even if the variant does not directly cause improved survival or reproduction. These mechanisms include genetic hitchhiking, genetic drift, and recurrent biased mutation or migration.
The mechanism is simple. Variations occur and they are selected both because they provide an advantage and becuase they don't, but are linked in some way to the characteristic that does. Selected genes which don't increase or decrease fitness also "piggy-back" along with ones that are selected because they increase fitness (edited to add).
There are other mechanisms which describe how macroevolutionary change can come about, such as Evo-devo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_devo), or Evolution of Development.
Still, these processes are also subject to selective pressures, which are not random.
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 08:14:14 PM
Where does your quotation about leg length come from?
What leg length?!
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 08:14:14 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:06:25 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on September 26, 2011, 04:41:54 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:32:22 PM
The question is clear, I am asking you to tell me how are you created.
Sperm meets egg, DNA meets DNA and nine months later the joy is bundled. That is how I was created.
Thank you so much. By this and by using mind, there is no doubt that we are created by The Creator.
QuoteHumans in the civilized world at least avoid natural selection by ways of technology, but in a primitive society, if long legs gave me an advantage, it would make me more attractive for mating (Or a better hunter or a better fighter or any other slight advantage over the rest for improved survival) and my genes would be passed on to a larger extent than those of some bloke's with shorter legs, thus (eventually exponentially) increasing the long-leg to short-leg ratio within the area.
This is mythical, meaningless a fable cannot be accepted by any mind.
What natural selection and what attractive mating and hunter and improved survival?!!!!! ???
Where does your quotation about leg length come from?
The quote about leg length in your post highlighted in red, where did it come from?
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 08:16:01 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:12:23 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 06:17:40 PM
HF
We need to establish a 'base line' of understanding to progress the discussion. So I would like to know if you would agree that all organisms (excepting clones) are genetically unique?
Everything in this life is unique, we are not products of a factory, we are the great creation of Allah The One.
Nothing is a copy of another thing. Every hair drop of rain is unique, every cloud tiny or big is unique will never be repeated in its shape or its path or its size or its time. Every sand is unique in its shape and its size and its place and time. Every hair of you is unique not similar to any of your hair or others' hair, it is unique in its color or its shape or its size or its place or its time.....
Allah is The Great Creator.
Subhan Allah.
That's not what I asked. Please answer the question I asked or I think my paitience with you will start to run out.
We need to establish a 'base line' of understanding to progress the discussion. So I would like to know if you would agree that all organisms (excepting clones) are genetically unique?
I don't believe in this false word "organism". I answered every soul is unique, everythins is unique in itself.
I ask you to start discussion to define the concept of evolution. Or you discovered the fallacy of its name and its definition??
Happy Forever...why do you hate science? Seriously, you seem to have a big issue with anything science and until that is corrected there is no sense trying to reason with you.
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 08:24:47 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 08:14:14 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:06:25 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on September 26, 2011, 04:41:54 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 03:32:22 PM
The question is clear, I am asking you to tell me how are you created.
Sperm meets egg, DNA meets DNA and nine months later the joy is bundled. That is how I was created.
Thank you so much. By this and by using mind, there is no doubt that we are created by The Creator.
QuoteHumans in the civilized world at least avoid natural selection by ways of technology, but in a primitive society, if long legs gave me an advantage, it would make me more attractive for mating (Or a better hunter or a better fighter or any other slight advantage over the rest for improved survival) and my genes would be passed on to a larger extent than those of some bloke's with shorter legs, thus (eventually exponentially) increasing the long-leg to short-leg ratio within the area.
This is mythical, meaningless a fable cannot be accepted by any mind.
What natural selection and what attractive mating and hunter and improved survival?!!!!! ???
Where does your quotation about leg length come from?
The quote about leg length in your post highlighted in red, where did it come from?
From Mr Admodean, post 44.
Don't be nervous, we agreed to be patient. There are many hidden secrets.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 08:19:48 PM
Two more points I would like to add:
If there wasn't the life and death cycle, there would be no change, and evolution is the result of the accumulated change over generations of the species or an isolated group, either geographically or genetically (at which point it can be said to be a different species). It's incorrect to say that individuals evolve. That's Lamarkian and has be proven to be false (at least for genetic inheritence, there's still some measure of Lamarckism in epigenetic inheritence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic), which both influences gene expression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_expression) and is inheritable) Worth a read.
Again, science doesn't deal with the philosophical 'why' questions. No serious biologist is going to take a worldview based on evolution (why are we here, where are we going, etc.) That's bordering on scientism, and such a thing isn't really taken seriously in the first place.
What are your thoughts on microevolution? And macroevolution?
QuoteI find no proof or definition to debate you here, you just say evolution is a theory.
May you defiine evolution to start debate as I know it has many definition and the definition I have is:
Development through billions of years by chance or natural selection.
Theory as in collection of facts, and it's a strong theory, with huge explanatory power. It's also very susceptible to falsifiability, which makes it interesting.
Mutations occur by chance, but selective pressures are not based on chance.
I think wikipedia defines what evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution) is quite well:
QuoteEvolution (or more specifically biological or organic evolution) is the change over time in one or more inherited traits found in populations of individuals. Inherited traits are distinguishing characteristics, for example anatomical, biochemical or behavioural, that are passed on from one generation to the next. Evolution requires variation of inherited traits within a population. New variants of inherited traits can enter a population from outside populations, and this is referred to as gene flow.Alternatively, new variants can come into being from within a population in at least three ways: mutation of DNA, epimutation (a change inherited in some way other than through the sequence of nucleotides in DNA), and genetic recombination. Natural selection, where different inherited traits cause different rates of survival and reproduction, can cause new variants to become common in a population. Other evolutionary mechanisms can cause a variant to become common even if the variant does not directly cause improved survival or reproduction. These mechanisms include genetic hitchhiking, genetic drift, and recurrent biased mutation or migration.
The mechanism is simple. Variations occur and they are selected both because they provide an advantage and becuase they don't, but are linked in some way to the characteristic that does. Selected genes also "piggy-back" along with ones that are selected.
There are other mechanisms which describe how macroevolutionary change can come about, such as Evo-devo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_devo), or Evolution of Development.
Still, these processes are also subject to selective pressures, which are not random.
Thanks for your respectful reply.
This is a definition if adaptation, I want you to give me the other shameful definition; Development by time".
What do you mean by selective pressure?
Show me one pressure which is selective?
Selective pressure makes trees produce delicious fruits?
Selective pressures makes you a male or a female?
Selective pressure falls rain with sweat water?
Where is the chance in the creation of Allah??
Evolutionary theory is a scientific issue. You need to debate it on it's own terms, otherwise this is all just a waste of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method)
You bring in the question of souls and it gets messy, because souls and existential issues are not scientific. It's like trying to disprove a mathematical proof by using anecdotal stories/evidence because they feel right.
If you can scientifically disprove this theory, then I am certain there will be a Nobel prize waiting for you.
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 08:29:03 PM
Happy Forever...why do you hate science? Seriously, you seem to have a big issue with anything science and until that is corrected there is no sense trying to reason with you.
On the contrary, science and nature are very strong evidence of The Creator.
"Verily Who are more afraid of Allah among His slaves are scientists" Quran
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 08:42:26 PM
Evolutionary theory is a scientific issue. You need to debate it on it's own terms, otherwise this is all just a waste of time.
Exactly.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 08:42:26 PM
Evolutionary theory is a scientific issue. You need to debate it on it's own terms, otherwise this is all just a waste of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method)
You bring in the question of souls and it gets messy, because souls and existential issues are not scientific. It's like trying to disprove a mathematical proof by using anecdotal stories/evidence because they feel right.
If you can scientifically disprove this theory, then I am certain there will be a Nobel prize waiting for you.
Thank you. I want to show you that it is false, this is all what I want.
One simple logical proof, "nothing is made by itself".
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:41:06 PM
Show me one pressure which is selective?
Variation in temperature is a selection pressure. Creatures that live in colder environments have thicker warmer fur than those than live in warmer environments. Some extremophile bacteria are quite capable of living in temperatures that would kill almost all other organisms.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:43:50 PM
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 08:29:03 PM
Happy Forever...why do you hate science? Seriously, you seem to have a big issue with anything science and until that is corrected there is no sense trying to reason with you.
On the contrary, science and nature are very strong evidence of The Creator.
"Verily Who are more afraid of Allah among His slaves are scientists" Quran
First...stop preaching. We don't think the quran is a holy text and you don't need to be quoting it at us for no good reason. I've already let you slip on that rule quite a few times now.
2nd...if you don't hate science then why do you refuse to follow the scientific method when trying to understand science? Science doesn't mean "I like this idea therefore it is true"
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 08:42:26 PM
Evolutionary theory is a scientific issue. You need to debate it on it's own terms, otherwise this is all just a waste of time.
Exactly.
Evolution has no relation with science.
When you say that you have eyes by natural selection is a myth. To say that you have ears by natural selection is a myth. To say you have legs by chance or randomness is a big myth.
Where is science here?!!!!
Nothing in science called chance or randomness or mythical selection.
Take care
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:41:06 PM
Thanks for your respectful reply.
This is a definition if adaptation, I want you to give me the other shameful definition; Development by time".
What do you mean? Macroevolution?
QuoteWhat do you mean by selective pressure?
Show me one pressure which is selective?
It's a description of some occurance that in turn influences what characterisitcs are selected either because they enhance fitness or because they're piggy-backing with one that does.
Natural selection is selective. Sexual selection is also selective. Ultimately the one that 'get's the last word', so to speak, is natural selection.
If something isn't able to survive in an environment or compete with others for survival, it won't. It's that simple. QuoteSelective pressure makes trees produce delicious fruits?
In this case selective pressures are the birds and insects which prefer fruits with more sugar. They also polinise. They leave the bitter ones alone, and in turn the seeds in those don't get past on to future generations.
QuoteSelective pressures makes you a male or a female?
Huh? ???
Sexual reproduction goes way back, even bacteria switch genes (even though they don't have genders and don't switch gamets, which doesn't make it sexual reproduction per se.
And there are advantages to switching genes.
QuoteSelective pressure falls rain with sweat water?
I really don't know where you're going with this.
QuoteWhere is the chance in the creation of Allah??
Allah being a creator is a small chance among infinite possibilities...
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:49:57 PM
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 08:42:26 PM
Evolutionary theory is a scientific issue. You need to debate it on it's own terms, otherwise this is all just a waste of time.
Exactly.
Evolution has no relation with science.
When you say that you have eyes by natural selection is a myth. To say that you have ears by natural selection is a myth. To say you have legs by chance or randomness is a big myth.
Where is science here?!!!!
Nothing in science called chance or randomness or mythical selection.
Take care
Talk about simply ignoring everything we've been saying till now...
::)
Quote
Thank you. I want to show you that it is false, this is all what I want.
All you've been doing so far is basically say that since it all seems very improbable to you, then it can't be true. You're attacking strawmen arguments, and you aren't even discussing evolutionary theory based on what it is.
You should first read up a bit on it.
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 08:49:47 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:43:50 PM
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 08:29:03 PM
Happy Forever...why do you hate science? Seriously, you seem to have a big issue with anything science and until that is corrected there is no sense trying to reason with you.
On the contrary, science and nature are very strong evidence of The Creator.
"Verily Who are more afraid of Allah among His slaves are scientists" Quran
First...stop preaching. We don't think the quran is a holy text and you don't need to be quoting it at us for no good reason. I've already let you slip on that rule quite a few times now.
2nd...if you don't hate science then why do you refuse to follow the scientific method when trying to understand science? Science doesn't mean "I like this idea therefore it is true"
Mr Admin,
Being an admin doesn't mean to control me for no reason.
If you don't know the meaning of preaching go and search, no rule here prevents me from quoting The Munificent Quran and if you don't believe it, non of my business.
Read my post to which you have replied.
Science and nature are the evidence of Allah. Or you want to set a personal science??
Take care
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:49:57 PM
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 08:42:26 PM
Evolutionary theory is a scientific issue. You need to debate it on it's own terms, otherwise this is all just a waste of time.
Exactly.
Evolution has no relation with science.
When you say that you have eyes by natural selection is a myth. To say that you have ears by natural selection is a myth. To say you have legs by chance or randomness is a big myth.
Where is science here?!!!!
Nothing in science called chance or randomness or mythical selection.
Take care
Oh dear. It would appear that you haven't got a clue about evolution by natural selection. Simply declaring something a myth, doesn't make it so. Simply claiming that some supernatural power created us also doesn't make it so. And while there is a world full of hard evidence that points to evolution there is none whatsoever that points to the existence of the supernatural.
It looks like we are going to have to agree to differ.
Happy Forever.. fair warning....if you continue to refuse to discuss this topic in a manner that is fitting of adult conversation you'll be banned for trolling. If you simply are not able to understand the science then sorry but your posts are indistinguishable from a troll and HAF was not set up as a sounding board for sophomoric claims.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:54:09 PM
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 08:49:47 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:43:50 PM
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 08:29:03 PM
Happy Forever...why do you hate science? Seriously, you seem to have a big issue with anything science and until that is corrected there is no sense trying to reason with you.
On the contrary, science and nature are very strong evidence of The Creator.
"Verily Who are more afraid of Allah among His slaves are scientists" Quran
First...stop preaching. We don't think the quran is a holy text and you don't need to be quoting it at us for no good reason. I've already let you slip on that rule quite a few times now.
2nd...if you don't hate science then why do you refuse to follow the scientific method when trying to understand science? Science doesn't mean "I like this idea therefore it is true"
Mr Admin,
Being an admin doesn't mean to control me for no reason.
If you don't know the meaning of preaching go and search, no rule here prevents me from quoting The Munificent Quran and if you don't believe it, non of my business.
Read my post to which you have replied.
Science and nature are the evidence of Allah. Or you want to set a personal science??
Take care
Whitney is female, now you may not know that being Arabic. But she does have her gender icon switched on. So you have failed the observation test, which really does call into question your abilities to observe and draw conclusions from observation.
Preaching is against the rules
QuoteNO PREACHING: While everyone is welcome to discuss their views in a civil manner, this forum is not a podium for those that only wish to preach. This rule applies to atheists and theists alike. Preaching means stating your beliefs without providing evidence. If directly asked what you believe you may answer but it would then become against the rules if you were to then refuse to back up your views objectively when honestly challenged. This means that if you want to use your religious text to prove your deity, for instance, you will also need to be prepared to prove that your religious text is an objective source of evidence.
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 08:49:02 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:41:06 PM
Show me one pressure which is selective?
Variation in temperature is a selection pressure. Creatures that live in colder environments have thicker warmer fur than those than live in warmer environments. Some extremophile bacteria are quite capable of living in temperatures that would kill almost all other organisms.
Thank you so much for this reply. First this has no relation to natural selection, let's see how.
The stupid evolution here tries hardly to prove unlogical concept against the logical fact "nothing done by itself".
Creatures that live in colder environments have thicker warmer fur than those than live in warmer environments.What selects here and to turn to what?
Creatures that live in cold
are given thick fur out of the grace of Allah The Creator.
What is the evidence?
These creatures were born as is without paying any effort exactly as a baby is born his his food "Mother milk".
What is the proof of the fallacy of selective pressure or what you call natural selection is:
A stupid bear left his warm weather and traveled to a cold place by chance---- the bear had thin fur-----before his death from cold, he recommended his genes to change itself-----a generation after generation, the fur becomes thicker why???
Oh, of course no one knows why as the only thing you care about is how to believe the myth blindly without using your own mind.
I tell you how.
The bear of course doesn't change its fur and can't and will never although he is the only one who suffers here.
The skin changes itself although it doesn't feel cold or suffer or understand what is the meaning of life or death.
The gene recorded it by itself automatically without a programmer or any mind as this mindless inanimate rhing is keen to have a next comfortable generation which will not suffer like their parents.
Is this the real logical explanation of survival, natural selection?
Admit that natural selection and mutation and survival and evolution are unlogical words invented to hide the real shameful word "desire".
How a desire creates a complete man like you, brother?
Evolution is a myth.
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 08:56:08 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:49:57 PM
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 08:42:26 PM
Evolutionary theory is a scientific issue. You need to debate it on it's own terms, otherwise this is all just a waste of time.
Exactly.
Evolution has no relation with science.
When you say that you have eyes by natural selection is a myth. To say that you have ears by natural selection is a myth. To say you have legs by chance or randomness is a big myth.
Where is science here?!!!!
Nothing in science called chance or randomness or mythical selection.
Take care
Oh dear. It would appear that you haven't got a clue about evolution by natural selection. Simply declaring something a myth, doesn't make it so. Simply claiming that some supernatural power created us also doesn't make it so. And while there is a world full of hard evidence that points to evolution there is none whatsoever that points to the existence of the supernatural.
It looks like we are going to have to agree to differ.
Oh Tank,
If you can't reply, doesn't mean to follow what were have been teached for many years and accept it even if it is against your mind and heart and soul and body and existence.
Who mentioned supernatural? What supernatural that created you?!! Is it another fallacy?
All the best
Happy Forever, in that example, bears born with randomly occuring thicker furs are the ones that survived...between those that survived, those (the population already had a higher frequency of bears with thicker fur) the ones with even thicker naturally occuring even thicker fur based on variation survived.
You're leaving out variation.
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 08:56:29 PM
Happy Forever.. fair warning....if you continue to refuse to discuss this topic in a manner that is fitting of adult conversation you'll be banned for trolling. If you simply are not able to understand the science then sorry but your posts are indistinguishable from a troll and HAF was not set up as a sounding board for sophomoric claims.
Sorry Ms Whitney,
I didn't notice you are a female.
I would like to debate you evolution seriously by scientific evidence.
May you answer this simple question?
How evolution granted you eyes?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 09:21:22 PM
Happy Forever, in that example, bears born with randomly occuring thicker furs are the ones that survived...between those that survived, those (the population already had a higher frequency of bears with thicker fur) the ones with even thicker naturally occuring even thicker fur based on variation survived.
You're leaving out variation.
Exactly
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 09:17:01 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 08:56:08 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:49:57 PM
Quote from: BullyforBronto on September 26, 2011, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 08:42:26 PM
Evolutionary theory is a scientific issue. You need to debate it on it's own terms, otherwise this is all just a waste of time.
Exactly.
Evolution has no relation with science.
When you say that you have eyes by natural selection is a myth. To say that you have ears by natural selection is a myth. To say you have legs by chance or randomness is a big myth.
Where is science here?!!!!
Nothing in science called chance or randomness or mythical selection.
Take care
Oh dear. It would appear that you haven't got a clue about evolution by natural selection. Simply declaring something a myth, doesn't make it so. Simply claiming that some supernatural power created us also doesn't make it so. And while there is a world full of hard evidence that points to evolution there is none whatsoever that points to the existence of the supernatural.
It looks like we are going to have to agree to differ.
Oh Tank,
If you can't reply, doesn't mean to follow what were have been teached for many years and accept it even if it is against your mind and heart and soul and body and existence.
Who mentioned supernatural? What supernatural that created you?!! Is it another fallacy?
All the best
You keep mentioning Allah, who, if he existed, would be the very definition of supernatural.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 09:21:36 PM
Sorry Ms Whitney,
I didn't notice you are a female.
That didn't bother me....but it does bother me that you think that I have no right to enforce rules on my own forum...I suggest you have a quick attitude adjustment.
QuoteI would like to debate you evolution seriously by scientific evidence.
Then convince me that you are able to do that by actually debating seriously using science!
QuoteMay you answer this simple question?
How evolution granted you eyes?
I'm not going to waste my time explaining something you can google; especially when you have yet to show a bit of desire to actually understand. Hint, light sensing cells existed before eyes.
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 09:24:33 PM
You keep mentioning Allah, who, if he existed, would be the very definition of supernatural.
Not expected from you at all.
Are you guessing? Do you kow Arabic?
Your supernatural has no equivalent in Arabic, it is translated literally.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 09:32:12 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 09:24:33 PM
You keep mentioning Allah, who, if he existed, would be the very definition of supernatural.
Not expected from you at all.
Are you guessing? Do you kow Arabic?
Your supernatural has no equivalent in Arabic, it is translated literally.
Interesting that supernatural does not translate into Arabic. What do you think the word supernatural means?
[sarcasm]
You know what? Happy Forever has made so many good points here that I have no choice but to believe allah is my creator. I mean, if HF can't bother to understand anything about evolution or natural selection, then clearly it's fake. All the evidence must have been placed by the antiallah to confuse us.
My eyes have been opened.
[\sarcasm]
The evolution of the eye (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeEUANN9wsk)
Quote from: Whitney on September 26, 2011, 09:30:29 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 09:21:36 PM
Sorry Ms Whitney,
I didn't notice you are a female.
That didn't bother me....but it does bother me that you think that I have no right to enforce rules on my own forum...I suggest you have a quick attitude adjustment.
QuoteI would like to debate you evolution seriously by scientific evidence.
Then convince me that you are able to do that by actually debating seriously using science!
QuoteMay you answer this simple question?
How evolution granted you eyes?
I'm not going to waste my time explaining something you can google; especially when you have yet to show a bit of desire to actually understand. Hint, light sensing cells existed before eyes.
And you can know everything through google, why we debate then? Why this forum then?
By making this forum and paying for it, it turned to be yours?!!
And you think you can turn its members to be yours?
If you don't want to debate this topic, leave here to any other thread or show us your personal judgment away from any rules and against free respectful speech.
All the best
Happy Forever
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 08:14:14 PM
Where does your quotation about leg length come from?
...From my example. Don't remember if it was in this or the other thread, but it is apparently not being understood while being abused at the same time.
Happy Forever, please start substantiating your reasoning.
That said, logic can be flawed. For instance, let go of something and it falls. In order for it to maintain height, it must be on top of, or hanging from, something else. Thus, the Earth is flat because otherwise, people would fall off the South Pole.
It is logical, but completely ignorant of scientific facts. Evolution, like gravity, should not be approached with logic and suppositions alone.
Quote from: Asmodean on September 26, 2011, 09:55:47 PM
Happy Forever, please start substantiating your reasoning.
That said, logic can be flawed. For instance, let go of something and it falls. In order for it to maintain height, it must be on top of, or hanging from, something else. Thus, the Earth is flat because otherwise, people would fall off the South Pole.
It is logical, but completely ignorant of scientific facts. Evolution, like gravity, should not be approached with logic and suppositions alone.
This^
Happy Foever, if you want people to take you seriously and not think that you're just trolling then, you have to discuss science on science's terms. And it doesn't really matter if you don't like that because evolutionary theory is a scientific theory whether you like it or not. If you're going to critique the theory, which is well in your right to, then you have to at least substantiate your reasoning. So far you've either completely ignored what people have been saying or didn't understand it. If the latter, and if you really want to know why creationism is false, then ask people to elaborate further if you must.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 09:21:36 PM
And you can know everything through google, why we debate then? Why this forum then?
How do you think Google "knows" things? By the will of Odin?
QuoteBy making this forum and paying for it, it turned to be yours?!!
Is Whitney's forum. Available to public is not the same as public owned. For instance, the road outside my house is mine while I rent the place. However, anyone can walk on it.
QuoteAnd you think you can turn its members to be yours?
Incoherent.
QuoteIf you don't want to debate this topic, leave here to any other thread or show us your personal judgment away from any rules and against free respectful speech.
Still incoherent. Oh, and respectful preach is not allowed here. Nor is trolling. That there is abuse of free speech. Up until now, you have not debated anything, even though we tried to help you start a good debate. All you do in reply is spew unsubstantiated nonsense.
Happy Forever is banned for a week for being rude to the site owner and for showing no desire to follow the rules or even attempt to discuss properly..in short, trolling.
Note HF can log in and see posts during the ban.....
Well... We gave him (Or was it her..?) a fair chance and you and the mod team have been more than patient enough... :)
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 10:01:53 PM
Happy Foever, if you want people to take you seriously and not think that you're just trolling then,
I am already convinced this person is not interested in intelligent conversation.
I have not seen any honest questions asked from this person with this person looking to learn from any potential answers.
Happy Forever is only interested in stirring and trying to push his/her points, whatever those points may be.
Waste of time.
Happy Forever if you are truly interested in understanding the theory of evolution there are any good books and websites and likely forums dedicated to evolution.
Quote from: Stevil on September 26, 2011, 11:20:03 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 10:01:53 PM
Happy Foever, if you want people to take you seriously and not think that you're just trolling then,
I am already convinced this person is not interested in intelligent conversation.
I have not seen any honest questions asked from this person with this person looking to learn from any potential answers.
Happy Forever is only interested in stirring and trying to push his/her points, whatever those points may be.
Waste of time.
Agreed. I just gave him the benefit of the doubt because most creationists are terribly ignorant but not stupid. I'm not too sure if that's the case here, since Happy Forever doesn't show any sign that he is understanding what we're trying to tell him. Maybe the language barrier or something...
This entire thread was painful to read. Kudos to those who tried to have a sensible discussion.
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 11:58:12 AM
Although evolution is against science and logic, yet countless people follow it in this age of science and mind!
May anyone who thinks of this myth interpret birth and life and death which are the evidence of its fallacy?
Thanks in advance.
From this first post it should have been obvious this wasn't going to be productive.
I've typed and deleted a line or two, I'll just say I think the approach of a very recent MacQ post on a similar theme expresses my feelings.
It's too easy to be trolled by someone claiming to be an Arab woman with poor English.
HF was so desparate to respond that SHE sent this email to the admin who passed it on to me. I thought I would share it with you as it does put this 'tin lid' on her thoughts ;D
Quote from: Happy Foreverhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeEUANN9wsk
Dear brother Tank,
To watch a video presented by an old man with quite voice and nice music and colorful pictures will not turn unlogical concept to a fact. I can do the same but I will not cuz I don't need tricky shows.
Let's think together what is eye and why and how?
Eyes are given to us not evolved, we are born with it. Eyes are the tools that make us see. Eyes are blind in themselves, it is us who see through them. Why??
Because The Creator is merciful to grant us these eyes and allow us to see with them.
But what this video says and why it is unlogical?
As I said, eyes are blind in themselves, it is us who see through them so,
A light touches an eye will not make it to refresh and see for your sake but it does its written role.
You the only mindful here didn't create your eyes, you were created with them. The eye is like you or less, it was created to do its role. If there is something here is keen to see, it is you not the eye. If a light touched blind thing for billions of trillions of years will not turn to seer.
This is the trick. The same for your ears and nose and elbows and legs and arms and teeth.
Here is the right clear picture of evolution which I tried to deliver to you:
Evolution is self development through countless years by chance or natural selection or randomness.
If we applied this definition in another a universe other than this, it would be as such:
There is a mindful thing existed by itself---it develops itself by time to be bigger and stronger---- it amend itself as it knows itself well as it is its maker---- it will never die because death is against its purpose of life which is selfishness and desire to be the best.
This imaginable thing will never make another thing to challenge it but use any avaiable means to strengthen itself. Every part of it is made by it, every part of it has nothing to do but to do what it does automatically without choice.
Finally this thing or this universe is a myth because no mindful thing exist by itself and will not find things existed by itself to develop itself.
What about this universe?
It is not one thing and not consistedof parts. It is independant creatures not existed by themselves or develop by themselves because they no nothing about their own creation and cannot amend themselves to live forever.
This existence is based on integration, very accurate organized integration. Everything has a role must do it not because it has nothing but to do it but because it is its role for which it was created.
The eye was created for you to make you see not you who created the eye to be able to see. Here is another clear logical evidence:
A blind deaf mindless thing will remain as is even if we waited for it to evolve for endless years, why?
Because a deaf doesn't know what is the meaning of sound and never experience it, how will it make itself hear?
A blind doesn't know what is the meaning of sight and never experience it, how will it make itself seer?
If a thing evoved itself, why it let itself die and make another thing to live instead of it?
Why it allows itself to die?
That is why birth and death and life are aagainst evolution.
Meditate the very accurate integration of the creation of Allah and think by your mind and see by your eyes and hear by your ears not by others mind and eyes and ears.
Ask yourself, why the sun rises? Why the sun sets? Why rain water is sweat? Why do I have eyes? Why trees produce delicious fruits? Why earth is paved? Why birth? Why death? Why am I here?
What everything stops, is there something to enforce it other than Allah?
What if your eyes stop to see for no reason, can you force it to see?
What if your heart stops to beat, can you force it to beat?
Why brother?
Nothing is by chance, or else there is no science and there is no nature. Your creation starting from a sperm to a clot to bones with flesh to fetus then a baby is not by chance. A chance can never turn to be a law even after trillions of years.
Randomness: Where is randomness here?
Natural selection: Let's nature selects, desire that claims to cause chance is not magical to make changed by itself. A white skin doesn't turn to dark from sun rays out of natural selection as skin itslef doesn't feel but you who feels, you who feel pain and suffered not the skin. If skin turned to be dark not to avoid the harm of the sun for your sake and not out of interactions and not by you, as skin doesn't know you and interactions is the processes itself not the doer and you are just a watcher not a doer.
"Nothing done by itself and nothing is forced for anything"
I have a miracle from Allah, a challenge against humanity at the age of science. if you'd like to continue our debate, you know my email, it is for respectful religious debate only.
Glory and praise be to Allah The One The Creator
All the best and farewell.
P.S Life is a big trick.
لا إله إلا الله
{name removed}
{email address removed}
Do any of the multilingual or other members have an opinion as to whether the language seems authentic?
Here's a total guess, and I could well be wrong:
It really is by someone whose first language is very different - not, say, French or German whose structures are more or less like our own. They have spent time in the UK, probably in education, but arrived here too late to pick up our syntax (typically after age 10 - 12).
The alternative would surely be a very clever, creative and consistent hoaxer.
But, I repeat, I've presumed a lot there and may well get egg on my face.
What a complete mess of the topic she makes. ::) Ever heard of non-overlapping magesteira? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-overlapping_magisteria) if you want to incorporate actual facts of reality into your worldview, you have to compromise to some extent, otherwise it's based on falsehoods. I know that if I were a non-solipist and religious, I wouldn't want that...
Well, for what it's worth, if she's still reading the replies to this thread, it's worth mentioning (though I doubt it would register with her...) that evolution can't be analysed from the 'finished product'. You can't look at already formed and evolved eyes and say that it couldn't have come about by chance, because then you'll commit an error by trying to calculate what the odds are that an extremely complex and functional apparatus instantaneously formed, which ultimately leads to idiotic arguments such as Hoyle's what are the odds of a wind sweeping through a junkyard and assembling a fully functional passenger plane?
Since there is actual evidence pointing to evolution as a fact, it's pointless and not to mention fallacious to try to calculate any odds based on that perspective. Obviously if you were to look at an already evolved human being and say that the odds of nature producing us from scratch are so low that it's close to zero, then you would need a concious designer capable of planning and foresight to explain our existence.
Though, just for the record, the odds of eyes (of all intermediate types) existing through an evolutionary process is 100%. ;D
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 27, 2011, 01:49:00 PM
What a complete mess of the topic she makes. ::) Ever heard of non-overlapping magesteira? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-overlapping_magisteria) if you want to incorporate actual facts of reality into your worldview, you have to compromise to some extent, otherwise it's based on falsehoods. I know that if I were a non-solipist and religious, I wouldn't want that...
I know what you mean, intelligent Christians, Muslims too saw the old creationist story couldn't be maintained, not without knowingly pedalling falsehood. God banging his stick and life formed and then proceeded to evolve as he knew it would, how he planned, I don't admire this story, but the creationist alternative of just closing your eyes and accepting such a convoluted bunch of lies just boggles the mind. I'm tempted to say they hurt my brain, make them go away, but that's what they do.
I think I need to check out the image dump, that helps.
Quote from: Stevil on September 26, 2011, 11:20:03 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 26, 2011, 10:01:53 PM
Happy Foever, if you want people to take you seriously and not think that you're just trolling then,
I am already convinced this person is not interested in intelligent conversation.
I have not seen any honest questions asked from this person with this person looking to learn from any potential answers.
Happy Forever is only interested in stirring and trying to push his/her points, whatever those points may be.
Waste of time.
Happy Forever if you are truly interested in understanding the theory of evolution there are any good books and websites and likely forums dedicated to evolution.
From what I've seen elsewhere, it would be easier to converse with HF about how octagonal the color red is than it would be to converse with her about TOE.
Now that everything has cooled down. I've just re-read this thread.
I am still baffled as to why so many people were trying so hard and so honestly to have a conversation.
From what I read there has never been a conversation between anyone and Happy Forever.
HF makes some outrageous bold claim, with no attempt to substantiate it at all.
Just keeps telling everyone they are wrong and that they are following a myth and then demanding them again to provide evidence or logic.
Quote from: Stevil on September 30, 2011, 11:07:33 AM
Now that everything has cooled down. I've just re-read this thread.
I am still baffled as to why so many people were trying so hard and so honestly to have a conversation.
From what I read there has never been a conversation between anyone and Happy Forever.
HF makes some outrageous bold claim, with no attempt to substantiate it at all.
Just keeps telling everyone they are wrong and that they are following a myth and then demanding them again to provide evidence or logic.
I understand what your saying but just because one's interlocutor is behaving in an irrational and unreasonable manner doesn't mean one has to respond in kind. It's good training to learn to keep one's cool ;D
If she is new to forums, and honest about wanting to dialogue or debate, then I hope she is understanding that we would welcome it but have not seen it from her yet. We need more information, more detail, statements backed up by some reasoning or facts.
If she tells us we are wrong then she needs to make some effort in an attempt to explain why we are wrong.
Honestly, the only thing I would add is...
Good grief...*shakin me head*
If HF is real I find her most interesting. She is completly oblivious to the details of the ToE, the scientific method, good manners and polite discussion.
She could be a Poe, it's quite possible. Especially when dealing with rather extreme cases such as her...
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 01, 2011, 03:58:07 PM
She could be a Poe, it's quite possible. Especially when dealing with rather extreme cases such as her...
This is true, she could be a Poe, but I hope she's real and if so stays around and tries to learn rather than just make random unsupported theological assertions.
Theists are often upset by Darwinian evolution because they think it challenges their faith. There is nothing inherently inconsistent between Darwinian evolution and 1) the concept of a creator God; or 2) the historicity of Jesus, Moses, Mohammad or any other prophet/messiah. There could have been a creator God who prescribed the original conditions, and then allowed the universe/world to develop according to the laws of nature. Then, once we arrived on the scene after 13.7 billion years, that creator God could have chosen to communicate with us through these prophets/messiahs. The simple point here is that evolution and an old universe/earth do not negate the essential claims of at least the Abrahamic religions, unless one interprets the texts of those religions in a hyper-literalistic manner, which I contend is unwarranted and unnecessary. Theists often take an ill-advised stance against science, while hypocritically enjoying the benefits of science daily.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 07, 2011, 04:26:17 AM
The simple point here is that evolution and an old universe/earth do not negate the essential claims of at least the Abrahamic religions, unless one interprets the texts of those religions in a hyper-literalistic manner, which I contend is unwarranted and unnecessary.
I've often thought that this hyper-literalism is the single biggest religious mistake that can be made. I wouldn't be surprised if it was responsible for turning more believers into non-believers than vice versa.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 07, 2011, 04:26:17 AM
Theists are often upset by Darwinian evolution because they think it challenges their faith. There is nothing inherently inconsistent between Darwinian evolution and 1) the concept of a creator God; or 2) the historicity of Jesus, Moses, Mohammad or any other prophet/messiah. There could have been a creator God who prescribed the original conditions, and then allowed the universe/world to develop according to the laws of nature. Then, once we arrived on the scene after 13.7 billion years, that creator God could have chosen to communicate with us through these prophets/messiahs. The simple point here is that evolution and an old universe/earth do not negate the essential claims of at least the Abrahamic religions, unless one interprets the texts of those religions in a hyper-literalistic manner, which I contend is unwarranted and unnecessary. Theists often take an ill-advised stance against science, while hypocritically enjoying the benefits of science daily.
Agreed. The Catholic church has no problem with Darwinian Evolution at all and if you go to TheologyWeb (where I go by the name of Evolutionist) you'll find many Christian members who vehemently argue the cause of pure Darwinian Evolution and another group who simply believe that God 'tweaked' evolution to suit his own ends. These two groups swap broadsides with the literalists and YECs in a most vociferous manner!
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 07, 2011, 04:26:17 AM
Theists are often upset by Darwinian evolution because they think it challenges their faith. There is nothing inherently inconsistent between Darwinian evolution and 1) the concept of a creator God; or 2) the historicity of Jesus, Moses, Mohammad or any other prophet/messiah. There could have been a creator God who prescribed the original conditions, and then allowed the universe/world to develop according to the laws of nature. Then, once we arrived on the scene after 13.7 billion years, that creator God could have chosen to communicate with us through these prophets/messiahs. The simple point here is that evolution and an old universe/earth do not negate the essential claims of at least the Abrahamic religions, unless one interprets the texts of those religions in a hyper-literalistic manner, which I contend is unwarranted and unnecessary. Theists often take an ill-advised stance against science, while hypocritically enjoying the benefits of science daily.
But by the same logic, the universe could also have been created by Zeus, Mithras, Ptah or the flying spaghetti monster. The claims of Islam, Judaism or Christianity are no more valid. Clearly the authors of the Tanakh, the New Testament and the Quran had no idea about the true age of the universe, the writers of all these boooks probably thought that the world was around 6-10,000 years old at most. Throughout most of their history their followers have also thought that it was created in six days. The writers of these books were also totally unaware of the true nature of the universe, the writers of the Tanakh and Quran thought that the Earth was flat, and probably also so did some of the writers of the NT. At best they thought that the Earth was at the centre of the universe and all the stars and planets rotated about it.
Some more moderate religious folk may have decided to try and adapt their religion to agree with the advancement of scientific knowledge, rather than vigorously oppose it as the Church used to, but it's not what the original writers of their religious books believed. If Jesus had ever lived (personally I don't think he ever did) he would not have known about evolution, the true age of the universe or even that the Earth rotated around the Sun!
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 07, 2011, 06:26:36 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 07, 2011, 04:26:17 AM
The simple point here is that evolution and an old universe/earth do not negate the essential claims of at least the Abrahamic religions, unless one interprets the texts of those religions in a hyper-literalistic manner, which I contend is unwarranted and unnecessary.
I've often thought that this hyper-literalism is the single biggest religious mistake that can be made. I wouldn't be surprised if it was responsible for turning more believers into non-believers than vice versa.
I have issues both ways, when taken literally the bible makes no sense and contradicts what has been proven by science.
But if you don't take the bible literally then how can someone derive absolute meaning/knowledge from a book that requires interpretation? The person interpreting the book injects themselves into it. The message becomes more of the interpreter than of the author. God becomes a self image. Hence lots of differing views, different churches, different religions based on the same book OT.
Quote from: Stevil on October 07, 2011, 12:13:55 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 07, 2011, 06:26:36 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 07, 2011, 04:26:17 AM
The simple point here is that evolution and an old universe/earth do not negate the essential claims of at least the Abrahamic religions, unless one interprets the texts of those religions in a hyper-literalistic manner, which I contend is unwarranted and unnecessary.
I've often thought that this hyper-literalism is the single biggest religious mistake that can be made. I wouldn't be surprised if it was responsible for turning more believers into non-believers than vice versa.
I have issues both ways, when taken literally the bible makes no sense and contradicts what has been proven by science.
But if you don't take the bible literally then how can someone derive absolute meaning/knowledge from a book that requires interpretation? The person interpreting the book injects themselves into it. The message becomes more of the interpreter than of the author. God becomes a self image. Hence lots of differing views, different churches, different religions based on the same book OT.
I don't think interpreting the bible hyper-literally helps to avoid that -- even among extreme literalists there are differences of opinion about what this, that and the other mean.
I think it's a matter of feeling secure. Some of the psychologically shakier faithheads dare not admit that the Bible is anything less than 100% literally true, because there lies insecurity: having to decide for oneself.
I once knew a grown woman with a good degree, intelligent in the sense of high IQ, a Vicar's wife, who told me that if the snake talked in Genesis, then snakes could talk in those days. I think she simply dared not move off that firm ground.
Quote from: OldGit on October 07, 2011, 04:24:04 PM
II once knew a grown woman with a good degree, intelligent in the sense of high IQ, a Vicar's wife, who told me that if the snake talked in Genesis, then snakes could talk in those days. I think she simply dared not move off that firm ground.
that's seriously ****ed up! I can't believe she was all that intelligent, I mean talking snakes, really???
Quote from: OldGit on October 07, 2011, 04:24:04 PM
I think it's a matter of feeling secure. Some of the psychologically shakier faithheads dare not admit that the Bible is anything less than 100% literally true, because there lies insecurity: having to decide for oneself.
I once knew a grown woman with a good degree, intelligent in the sense of high IQ, a Vicar's wife, who told me that if the snake talked in Genesis, then snakes could talk in those days. I think she simply dared not move off that firm ground.
I understand her position. I book that requires interpretation is meaningless.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on October 07, 2011, 11:58:27 AM
But by the same logic, the universe could also have been created by Zeus, Mithras, Ptah or the flying spaghetti monster. The claims of Islam, Judaism or Christianity are no more valid. Clearly the authors of the Tanakh, the New Testament and the Quran had no idea about the true age of the universe, the writers of all these boooks probably thought that the world was around 6-10,000 years old at most. Throughout most of their history their followers have also thought that it was created in six days. The writers of these books were also totally unaware of the true nature of the universe, the writers of the Tanakh and Quran thought that the Earth was flat, and probably also so did some of the writers of the NT. At best they thought that the Earth was at the centre of the universe and all the stars and planets rotated about it.
I'm not aware of any claims in the "New Testament" about the age of the earth. I also question whether the original authors of Genesis 1 and 2 really thought they were writing literal history. Genesis 1 is written in poetic, hymnic verse, and Genesis 2 seems more like a metaphor in its style. I don't think you get into an actual attempt at history until about Genesis 12 (story of Abraham). Even the story of Noah's flood can easily be understood as an embellished account of a very nasty local event, not literally a worldwide one. In any event, it doesn't matter what Paul or John thought about the age of the earth. The issue for a Christian is whether the account of Jesus is based in history, and the point of my post is that the age of the earth and Darwinian evolution don't impact that issue at all.
Quote from: Stevil on September 30, 2011, 09:25:13 PM
If she is new to forums, and honest about wanting to dialogue or debate, then I hope she is understanding that we would welcome it but have not seen it from her yet. We need more information, more detail, statements backed up by some reasoning or facts.
If she tells us we are wrong then she needs to make some effort in an attempt to explain why we are wrong.
Thank you and thanks to Tank.
As I said, I have the strongest evidence on earth.
Allah says: "And (Allah) makes for you the hearing and sight and hearts, little that you thank"
Debate me about the eye. The eye tells us that it is a weak creature of Allah and cannot be evolved. (I will never believe that desire has a magical power, I follow science and logic only)
May you tell me why do you have eyes?
Happy Forever
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 08, 2011, 09:51:03 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 30, 2011, 09:25:13 PM
If she is new to forums, and honest about wanting to dialogue or debate, then I hope she is understanding that we would welcome it but have not seen it from her yet. We need more information, more detail, statements backed up by some reasoning or facts.
If she tells us we are wrong then she needs to make some effort in an attempt to explain why we are wrong.
Thank you and thanks to Tank.
As I said, I have the strongest evidence on earth.
Allah says: "And (Allah) makes for you the hearing and sight and hearts, little that you thank"
Debate me about the eye. The eye tells us that it is a weak creature of Allah and cannot be evolved. (I will never believe that desire has a magical power, I follow science and logic only)
May you tell me why do you have eyes?
Happy Forever
Welcome back HF
The video link I poster explains why. Google David Attenborough and then watch the video again. ;D
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:26:57 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 08:16:01 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:12:23 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 06:17:40 PM
HF
We need to establish a 'base line' of understanding to progress the discussion. So I would like to know if you would agree that all organisms (excepting clones) are genetically unique?
Everything in this life is unique, we are not products of a factory, we are the great creation of Allah The One.
Nothing is a copy of another thing. Every hair drop of rain is unique, every cloud tiny or big is unique will never be repeated in its shape or its path or its size or its time. Every sand is unique in its shape and its size and its place and time. Every hair of you is unique not similar to any of your hair or others' hair, it is unique in its color or its shape or its size or its place or its time.....
Allah is The Great Creator.
Subhan Allah.
That's not what I asked. Please answer the question I asked or I think my paitience with you will start to run out.
We need to establish a 'base line' of understanding to progress the discussion. So I would like to know if you would agree that all organisms (excepting clones) are genetically unique?
I don't believe in this false word "organism". I answered every soul is unique, everythins is unique in itself.
I ask you to start discussion to define the concept of evolution. Or you discovered the fallacy of its name and its definition??
HF
Why is organism a false word?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 08, 2011, 03:03:57 AM
I'm not aware of any claims in the "New Testament" about the age of the earth. I also question whether the original authors of Genesis 1 and 2 really thought they were writing literal history. Genesis 1 is written in poetic, hymnic verse, and Genesis 2 seems more like a metaphor in its style. I don't think you get into an actual attempt at history until about Genesis 12 (story of Abraham). Even the story of Noah's flood can easily be understood as an embellished account of a very nasty local event, not literally a worldwide one. In any event, it doesn't matter what Paul or John thought about the age of the earth. The issue for a Christian is whether the account of Jesus is based in history, and the point of my post is that the age of the earth and Darwinian evolution don't impact that issue at all.
There's plenty of evidence from non-canonical early Christian writings as to how old they viewed the Earth as being. As well as them believing that the Earth was at the centre of the universe. What Christian writings made it into the NT and which were rejected was a fairly political decision taken in the late fourth century, so I personally don't see the rejected scripture as being inherently less valid than the accepted books. Plus Jesus talks about unhistorical events like the flood in the accepted gospels.
As to when we start to see history in the Bible, I can't see any evidence of a historical Abraham, Noah or Moses, and personally I'd question the historicity of most of both the Old and New Testaments.
But you're right that evolution doesn't inherently negate Jesus or Christianity, but your god doesn't have any stronger a case for having created the universe than Zeus, Mithras or the FSM. I just have to wonder why he didn't reveal more useful and accurate information to his prophets and followers.
Frankly, the subject of Jesus's historicity does not belong in this forum. Nor does speculation of Biblical exegesis not specifically pertaining to evolution. Why this muddying of the waters?
Is evolution a myth? Let the unbelievers tell us why so that those who know evolution is not just theory may show them how it is so.
Please.
Sorry, my curmudgeoness is showing through. I can't stand wading through pages of off tangent posts that have nothing to do with the topic. I feel bad for saying it, but c'mon...
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 08, 2011, 09:51:03 PM
As I said, I have the strongest evidence on earth.
Allah says
If you want to use this as evidence, you'll first have to establish that Allah exists. Then we can move on to the evolution of eyes, altho the use of Google could help you out a great deal there.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 09, 2011, 12:55:50 AM
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 08, 2011, 09:51:03 PM
As I said, I have the strongest evidence on earth.
Allah says
If you want to use this as evidence, you'll first have to establish that Allah exists. Then we can move on to the evolution of eyes, altho the use of Google could help you out a great deal there.
Don't you know That Allah is the Creator, you are His creation and you are the evidence of His great creation.
Which is prior to be believed? Your eyes or google?
So know we can talk about the eye. Why do you have eyes?
Quote from: Tank on October 08, 2011, 10:09:42 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 08, 2011, 09:51:03 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 30, 2011, 09:25:13 PM
If she is new to forums, and honest about wanting to dialogue or debate, then I hope she is understanding that we would welcome it but have not seen it from her yet. We need more information, more detail, statements backed up by some reasoning or facts.
If she tells us we are wrong then she needs to make some effort in an attempt to explain why we are wrong.
Thank you and thanks to Tank.
As I said, I have the strongest evidence on earth.
Allah says: "And (Allah) makes for you the hearing and sight and hearts, little that you thank"
Debate me about the eye. The eye tells us that it is a weak creature of Allah and cannot be evolved. (I will never believe that desire has a magical power, I follow science and logic only)
May you tell me why do you have eyes?
Happy Forever
Welcome back HF
The video link I poster explains why. Google David Attenborough and then watch the video again. ;D
No brother, this video is for how and I ask you why.
Why do you have eyes?
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:24:29 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 09, 2011, 12:55:50 AM
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 08, 2011, 09:51:03 PM
As I said, I have the strongest evidence on earth.
Allah says
If you want to use this as evidence, you'll first have to establish that Allah exists. Then we can move on to the evolution of eyes, altho the use of Google could help you out a great deal there.
Don't you know That Allah is the Creator, you are His creation and you are the evidence of His great creation.
Which is prior to be believed? Your eyes or google?
So know we can talk about the eye. Why do you have eyes?
HF
What I have highlighted constitutes preaching by the forum rules. You have been cut a lot of slack as it is is patently obvious that you lack knowledge and experience in debate and discussion techniques. But I am asking you to not preach here again or I will suspend your posting rights for 30 days, and that will be your last chance.
Tank
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:28:21 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 08, 2011, 10:09:42 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 08, 2011, 09:51:03 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 30, 2011, 09:25:13 PM
If she is new to forums, and honest about wanting to dialogue or debate, then I hope she is understanding that we would welcome it but have not seen it from her yet. We need more information, more detail, statements backed up by some reasoning or facts.
If she tells us we are wrong then she needs to make some effort in an attempt to explain why we are wrong.
Thank you and thanks to Tank.
As I said, I have the strongest evidence on earth.
Allah says: "And (Allah) makes for you the hearing and sight and hearts, little that you thank"
Debate me about the eye. The eye tells us that it is a weak creature of Allah and cannot be evolved. (I will never believe that desire has a magical power, I follow science and logic only)
May you tell me why do you have eyes?
Happy Forever
Welcome back HF
The video link I poster explains why. Google David Attenborough and then watch the video again. ;D
No brother, this video is for how and I ask you why.
Why do you have eyes?
Because they have provided an evolutionary advantage to our ancestors.
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:24:29 PM
Don't you know That Allah is the Creator, you are His creation and you are the evidence of His great creation.
This is simply a bold statement, you must back it up with some substance.
I could easily state
Don't you know That Evolutions is the Creator, you are Its creation and you are the evidence of Its great creation.
Unless you provide some substance, it is useless talking to you.
Quote from: Stevil on October 10, 2011, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:24:29 PM
Don't you know That Allah is the Creator, you are His creation and you are the evidence of His great creation.
This is simply a bold statement, you must back it up with some substance.
I could easily state
Don't you know That Evolutions is the Creator, you are Its creation and you are the evidence of Its great creation.
Unless you provide some substance, it is useless talking to you.
Exactly.
Complete your reply and answer the question, the substance you ask for is in your answer.
Why do you have eyes?
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:42:06 PM
Complete your reply and answer the question, the substance you ask for is in your answer.
Why do you have eyes?
I believe he answered the question. Now, can you tell me why you think you have eyes?
Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 07:39:35 PM
Quote from: Stevil on October 10, 2011, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:24:29 PM
Don't you know That Allah is the Creator, you are His creation and you are the evidence of His great creation.
This is simply a bold statement, you must back it up with some substance.
I could easily state
Don't you know That Evolutions is the Creator, you are Its creation and you are the evidence of Its great creation.
Unless you provide some substance, it is useless talking to you.
Exactly.
Tank, I ask a simple question and your answer is not equivalent, read the question again.
Waiting for your answer (the evidence is in the right answer.
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:46:45 PM
Tank, I ask a simple question and your answer is not equivalent, read the question again.
Waiting for your answer (the evidence is in the right answer.
Tank's answer couldn't have been simpler:
QuoteBecause they have provided an evolutionary advantage to our ancestors.
Now, HF, why do you have eyes?
Quote from: BullyforBronto on October 10, 2011, 07:44:58 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:42:06 PM
Complete your reply and answer the question, the substance you ask for is in your answer.
Why do you have eyes?
I believe he answered the question. Now, can you tell me why you think you have eyes?
Believe in whatever you want, this is a wrong answer.
As I said before, we speak here with science and logic and his reply is unrelated.
Evolution fears why, it uncovers its magic.
I ask why and he answers his own how.
All the best
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:46:45 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 07:39:35 PM
Quote from: Stevil on October 10, 2011, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:24:29 PM
Don't you know That Allah is the Creator, you are His creation and you are the evidence of His great creation.
This is simply a bold statement, you must back it up with some substance.
I could easily state
Don't you know That Evolutions is the Creator, you are Its creation and you are the evidence of Its great creation.
Unless you provide some substance, it is useless talking to you.
Exactly.
Tank, I ask a simple question and your answer is not equivalent, read the question again.
Waiting for your answer (the evidence is in the right answer.
I have answered your question. We have eyes because we are part of a long line of organisms that have had better and better eyes, starting with the pigmented cells in the very early multi-cellular animals of around 600 million years, and still found in flat worms today.
Now please present your answer as to why we have eyes, and support your view with appropriate evidence.
:)
Why do we have eyes?
I am still waiting for the right answer (it is very easy, you can ask your child and he will tell you the right answer by his pure nature.
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:55:58 PM
:)
Why do you have eyes?
I am still waiting for the right answer (it is very easy, you can ask your child and he will tell you the right answer by his pure nature.
I have given you the right answer, the fact you don't like (or believe it) is not my problem.
Back in a couple of hours.
OK, Happy, I give up. What's the right answer?
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:55:58 PM
:)
Why do we have eyes?
Because Evolution created them, so that we can see for our own eyes that there is no god.
Next silly question please
The "ask your child" response got me thinking. HF, are you waiting for someone to answer your question "Why do you have eyes?" with "So that I can see".
No doubt you will counter with some sort of teleological argument that posits the function of the eye as an indexical mark pointing to some overall purpose (read Allah's plan). Am I wrong in this assumption?
If not, what's your answer to the question?
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 07:24:29 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 09, 2011, 12:55:50 AM
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 08, 2011, 09:51:03 PM
As I said, I have the strongest evidence on earth.
Allah says
If you want to use this as evidence, you'll first have to establish that Allah exists. Then we can move on to the evolution of eyes, altho the use of Google could help you out a great deal there.
Don't you know That Allah is the Creator, you are His creation and you are the evidence of His great creation.
I know no such thing, and neither you nor anyone else I've ever heard or read has provided the evidence to prove it. Or to prove Odin, or Zeus or Changing Woman for that matter.
QuoteWhich is prior to be believed? Your eyes or google?
That makes zero sense, but I'm going to chalk that up to English not being your native language.
QuoteSo know we can talk about the eye. Why do you have eyes?
Tank's already gone over this rather completely, which I think is generous of him given your refusal to do, or accept, your own research (which is both unscientific and illogical of you) but I'll toss in my own 2 cents -- why we have eyes is because we evolved in an environment that made being able to see helpful to survival.
EDIT: Sorted quotes - Tank
Quote from: BullyforBronto on October 10, 2011, 08:17:55 PM
The "ask your child" response got me thinking. HF, are you waiting for someone to answer your question "Why do you have eyes?" with "So that I can see".
No doubt you will counter with some sort of teleological argument that posits the function of the eye as an indexical mark pointing to some overall purpose (read Allah's plan). Am I wrong in this assumption?
If not, what's your answer to the question?
I think you've asked a nice child. ;D
Yes, this is the only right answer to why, this why from which evolution trembles.
Yes, my intelligent brother. I am here to know the purpose of everything and I want you to answer the why of everything but be sure 100% "why" will uncover evolution.
The more you find yourself try to quit from answering it, the more you become confident that evolution magic holds the freedom of your mind.
Yes, "So that I can see" is the evidence.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 08:30:16 PM
why we have eyes is because we evolved in an environment that made being able to see helpful to survival.
Thanks brother for your reply.
If you turned to my reply no. 121, you will find this statement:
(I will never believe that desire has a magical power, I follow science and logic only)
Is it your evolution? Thanks for making it clear, I will clarify it more.
Environment and survival like a bird and his female. His female desires a specific shape of nest and the male bird shapes it according to her fancy.
Man the blind who doesn't know the meaning of sight, dreamt that he can see so he wished, cried alot, environment his mother is so soft and cute and merciful told him, what do you want my baby? Man said, I want to see Mumy although I don't know what does this word mean. His mumy said "Oh babe, as you know nothing is done by itself so we will work together, you tell me what you desire and I execute.
Why do we have eyes, brothers?
Quote from: Tank on October 08, 2011, 10:19:02 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:26:57 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 08:16:01 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 08:12:23 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 26, 2011, 06:17:40 PM
HF
We need to establish a 'base line' of understanding to progress the discussion. So I would like to know if you would agree that all organisms (excepting clones) are genetically unique?
Everything in this life is unique, we are not products of a factory, we are the great creation of Allah The One.
Nothing is a copy of another thing. Every hair drop of rain is unique, every cloud tiny or big is unique will never be repeated in its shape or its path or its size or its time. Every sand is unique in its shape and its size and its place and time. Every hair of you is unique not similar to any of your hair or others' hair, it is unique in its color or its shape or its size or its place or its time.....
Allah is The Great Creator.
Subhan Allah.
That's not what I asked. Please answer the question I asked or I think my paitience with you will start to run out.
We need to establish a 'base line' of understanding to progress the discussion. So I would like to know if you would agree that all organisms (excepting clones) are genetically unique?
I don't believe in this false word "organism". I answered every soul is unique, everythins is unique in itself.
I ask you to start discussion to define the concept of evolution. Or you discovered the fallacy of its name and its definition??
HF
Why is organism a false word?
HF
I have answered your question about why we have eyes. I would appretiate an answer to my question "Why is organism a false word?"
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 08:50:27 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 08:30:16 PM
why we have eyes is because we evolved in an environment that made being able to see helpful to survival.
Thanks brother for your reply.
It's sister, actually.
QuoteMan the blind who doesn't know the meaning of sight, dreamt that he can see so he wished, cried alot, environment his mother is so soft and cute and merciful told him, what do you want my baby? Man said, I want to see Mumy although I don't know what does this word mean. His mumy said "Oh babe, as you know nothing is done by itself so we will work together, you tell me what you desire and I execute.
Why do we have eyes, brothers?
Asked and answered, and we at least were courteous enough not to use philosophy and fables which have nothing to do with anything as straight forward as natural selection.
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 08:35:11 PM
Yes, this is the only right answer to why, this why from which evolution trembles.
How in the world does evolution "tremble" from "we have eyes so we can see"? It's just an extremely simplifed way of saying we have eyes because we evolved in an environment that made sight helpful to survival.
Frankly, I don't understand what is "magical" about evolution and natural selection -- they're very practical mechanisms that we can actually see at work in the world around us, in insects with very short lifespans to give just one example. And I'm still waiting for an answer to Tank's question about why "organism" is a false word.
To be honest, I think this thread is just a smoke screen for preaching.
Quote from: BullyforBronto on October 10, 2011, 07:44:58 PM
Now, can you tell me why you think you have eyes?
That has more to do with this thread than any discussion on evolution ::)
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 09:14:44 PM
{snip}
To be honest, I think this thread is just a smoke screen for preaching.
Either that or an example of what an arab/Muslim education system produces, which appears to be quite frankly, horrifying.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 09:14:44 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 08:50:27 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 08:30:16 PM
why we have eyes is because we evolved in an environment that made being able to see helpful to survival.
Thanks brother for your reply.
It's sister, actually.
QuoteMan the blind who doesn't know the meaning of sight, dreamt that he can see so he wished, cried alot, environment his mother is so soft and cute and merciful told him, what do you want my baby? Man said, I want to see Mumy although I don't know what does this word mean. His mumy said "Oh babe, as you know nothing is done by itself so we will work together, you tell me what you desire and I execute.
Why do we have eyes, brothers?
Asked and answered, and we at least were courteous enough not to use philosophy and fables which have nothing to do with anything as straight forward as natural selection.
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 08:35:11 PM
Yes, this is the only right answer to why, this why from which evolution trembles.
How in the world does evolution "tremble" from "we have eyes so we can see"? It's just an extremely simplifed way of saying we have eyes because we evolved in an environment that made sight helpful to survival.
Frankly, I don't understand what is "magical" about evolution and natural selection -- they're very practical mechanisms that we can actually see at work in the world around us, in insects with very short lifespans to give just one example. And I'm still waiting for an answer to Tank's question about why "organism" is a false word.
To be honest, I think this thread is just a smoke screen for preaching.
Haha
Where is magic here?!!
I ask why and you say because of survival and natural selection and environment.
As if you say exactly it is desire that creates everything!
I debated an evolutionist asking him, why do you have eyes? He said "because we evolve through billions of years.
I said "then if you want to fly, will you?! He said "Yes, but after billions of years of course". :o
The same is here, I ask you why you have eyes, you said "in order to see".
Why environment obeys your desire (survival) to see? Why
If nature can selects (this is impossible because nature is rules and rules are mindless), why nature is merciful to work according to your own desire?
Why trees provides you delicious fruits?
Because you desire to eat it in that way?
Why the sun sets?
To let you sleep at night?
Why do you have ears?
Because natural selects and environment felt your desire through its antenna??
If you desire then died and your son desires then died,,,, through billions of years of desires, you can fly?
Evolution the myth
Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 09:29:28 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 09:14:44 PM
{snip}
To be honest, I think this thread is just a smoke screen for preaching.
Either that or an example of what an arab/Muslim education system produces, which appears to be quite frankly, horrifying.
What's really frustrating is that I feel we're talking at cross purposes, since nearly everything she writes about evolution has nothing to do with it. I wish Bruce would jump in on this one -- he's not Muslim but maybe it takes a religious turn of mind to untangle this.
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 09:35:04 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 09:14:44 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 08:50:27 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 08:30:16 PM
why we have eyes is because we evolved in an environment that made being able to see helpful to survival.
Thanks brother for your reply.
It's sister, actually.
QuoteMan the blind who doesn't know the meaning of sight, dreamt that he can see so he wished, cried alot, environment his mother is so soft and cute and merciful told him, what do you want my baby? Man said, I want to see Mumy although I don't know what does this word mean. His mumy said "Oh babe, as you know nothing is done by itself so we will work together, you tell me what you desire and I execute.
Why do we have eyes, brothers?
Asked and answered, and we at least were courteous enough not to use philosophy and fables which have nothing to do with anything as straight forward as natural selection.
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 08:35:11 PM
Yes, this is the only right answer to why, this why from which evolution trembles.
How in the world does evolution "tremble" from "we have eyes so we can see"? It's just an extremely simplifed way of saying we have eyes because we evolved in an environment that made sight helpful to survival.
Frankly, I don't understand what is "magical" about evolution and natural selection -- they're very practical mechanisms that we can actually see at work in the world around us, in insects with very short lifespans to give just one example. And I'm still waiting for an answer to Tank's question about why "organism" is a false word.
To be honest, I think this thread is just a smoke screen for preaching.
Haha
Where is magic here?!!
I ask why and you say because of survival and natural selection and environment.
As if you say exactly it is desire that creates everything!
I debated an evolutionist asking him, why do you have eyes? He said "because we evolve through billions of years.
I said "then if you want to fly, will you?! He said "Yes, but after billions of years of course". :o
The same is here, I ask you why you have eyes, you said "in order to see".
Why environment obeys your desire (survival) to see? Why
If nature can selects (this is impossible because nature is rules and rules are mindless), why nature is merciful to work according to your own desire?
Why trees provides you delicious fruits?
Because you desire to eat it in that way?
Why the sun sets?
To let you sleep at night?
Why do you have ears?
Because natural selects and environment felt your desire through its antenna??
If you desire then died and your son desires then died,,,, through billions of years of desires, you can fly?
Evolution the myth
No person who actually knows about evolution though natural select ever said what I have highlighted, you have unfortunatly been mislead by an ignorent person.
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 09:35:04 PM
Haha
Where is magic here?!!
I ask why and you say because of survival and natural selection and environment.
As if you say exactly it is desire that creates everything!
What has desire got to do with evolution?
QuoteI debated an evolutionist asking him, why do you have eyes? He said "because we evolve through billions of years.
I said "then if you want to fly, will you?! He said "Yes, but after billions of years of course". :o
I don't think you were talking to a scientist, if he said that, so you may want to take that into consideration.
QuoteThe same is here, I ask you why you have eyes, you said "in order to see".
Why environment obeys your desire (survival) to see? Why
The environment doesn't "obey" anything.
QuoteIf nature can selects (this is impossible because nature is rules and rules are mindless), why nature is merciful to work according to your own desire?
Nature doesn't do that.
QuoteWhy trees provides you delicious fruits?
Because you desire to eat it in that way??
They don't always, you are aware some fruit is poisonous to humans?
QuoteWhy the sun sets?
Holy crap, do you actually believe that's what happens? Please tell me that was just a slip.
QuoteWhy do you have ears?
Same reason I have eyes.
QuoteBecause natural selects and environment felt your desire through its antenna??
Be honest with me, have you ever read a book on evolution and natural selection, other than one written by a creationist? Because everything you write, esp. that sentence above, indicates you have no idea what evolution is or how natural selection works.
QuoteIf you desire then died and your son desires then died,,,, through billions of years of desires, you can fly?
Of course, maybe it's this sentence that indicates you have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote
Evolution the myth
Let me ask you this: do you believe that everything that exists now has always existed in exactly this same state, with no change, no adjustment to differing environments, in other words, no evolution?
Let's have a look at this statement
QuoteIf nature can selects (this is impossible because nature is rules and rules are mindless), why nature is merciful to work according to your own desire?
Nature is not merciful, far from it, you will die, possibly of an illness possibly in an accident but you will die. I don't suppose Joseph Merrick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Merrick) felt nature was merciful.
You appear to think that organisms chose how they will evolve, this is not so. It is precisely because the rules of nature are mindless that natural selection leads to evolution. There is no choice in natural selection, it is a ruthless rule of reproduction. Individual organisms do not evolve, the gene pool of the organism's species evolves. And it evolves because there are variations between the individuals in the species and some of those individuals have a better chance of reproducing thus changing the mix of genes in the species gene pool in the next generation.
Evolution has no desire or objective or perception, it is the mindless result of natural selection.
HF, you are not identical to your mother or grandmother. Why is this so?
There are two main issues with this thread.
1: The approach of the thread starter is incredibly condescending
2: The thread starter assumes the Theory of Evolution is dependent on "why"
Science does not look to understand why, science searches for the how.
Why do we have eyes?
A: There was no reason or purpose leading to the development of eyes.
How do we come to have eyes?
A: Being able to react to surroundings has given organisms through the ages, the competitive advantage required to survive. With the random genetic mutations accounting for an almost infinite possibilities, those that advantaged their hosts survived to produce offspring and carry on mutating in the advantageous direction.
Organisms that have evolved appropriately survived, those that didn't died off.
There is no reason or why other than survival. We do not see, because we desired sight. The advantages of being able to sense light, sense movement, visualise objects, visualise details have progressively become more and more important for survival through the ages. There was no conscious thought or desire for sight.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 09:39:22 PM
What's really frustrating is that I feel we're talking at cross purposes, since nearly everything she writes about evolution has nothing to do with it. I wish Bruce would jump in on this one -- he's not Muslim but maybe it takes a religious turn of mind to untangle this.
Unfortunately, I think you are wasting your time. You will never get a straight answer from Happy, as she simply throws out spiritual sounding "wisdom-sayings" that don't fit in a scientific world view. She doesn't seem to understand that she could think on two levels - one scientific and one spiritual - and that the scientific world view is not necessarily inconsistent with the existence of Allah. But Islam is invested in showing that the Qur'an is a perfect book which covers everything in life, and since it doesn't talk about evolution, evolution simply cannot be true. You are wasting your time if you think you are going to get an actual logical discussion.
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 08:35:11 PM
Yes, this is the only right answer to why, this why from which evolution trembles.
Yes, my intelligent brother. I am here to know the purpose of everything and I want you to answer the why of everything but be sure 100% "why" will uncover evolution.
The more you find yourself try to quit from answering it, the more you become confident that evolution magic holds the freedom of your mind.
Yes, "So that I can see" is the evidence.
OMG I just had a life-changing epiphany ::) I have eyes so that I can see.
***
Since you can't seem to distinguish between science and philosophy, I'm going to ask you:
How could you tell if we're the result of creation or the purpose? And if you want to make your point way more substantiated, don't bring the Koran into it, since people who are not Muslims don't accept it as a holy book anyways. It's pointless to throw around any scripture without really backing it in with more solid evidence.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 11, 2011, 02:05:55 AM
You are wasting your time if you think you are going to get an actual logical discussion.
Maybe, tho I did think Tank made some progress in unsnarling this when he pointed out her misunderstanding in thinking that "desire" was considered a part of natural selection. I'm going to follow this thread awhile longer and see if that helped sort things out, and if not I'll pack it in.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 11, 2011, 02:53:28 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 11, 2011, 02:05:55 AM
You are wasting your time if you think you are going to get an actual logical discussion.
Maybe, tho I did think Tank made some progress in unsnarling this when he pointed out her misunderstanding in thinking that "desire" was considered a part of natural selection. I'm going to follow this thread awhile longer and see if that helped sort things out, and if not I'll pack it in.
This is one of those impossible "conversations." I put the word in quotes because I really don't think that HF is actually reading or understanding anything anyone is writing here, and "conversation" implies the opposite. I kind of dropped out of this when it became apparent that the thread was more about confronting abiogenesis than evolution by natural selection. It's not that I am not open to discuss abiogenesis; it's just that the premise of the post is misleading.
Happy Forever, I hope you prove me wrong. However, up until this point, you have provided nothing more than some weird manufactured rants. If you are going to make a teleological argument as to why evolution by natural selection is a myth, do it already. I'm sure most here can counter any such fallacy. In fact, Tank already did in his simple answer to your loaded question.
You are stuck on the purpose of the eye. Fine. Yes, the eye has a "function." It exists, and we can see. However, it was not created so that we can see. It's a chicken-egg misunderstanding on your part.
Note that I believe that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what's at stake in evolution by natural selection. In order to comprehend some of the arguments that have been presented against whatever it is you're espousing, you must first do a bit of reading outside of your holy book.
I'm going to try and explain the difference between Lamarckism and Darwinism as best I again, adding to all the previous attempts of myself and others, in hopes that at least you'll be on the right track and better informed before you go into the whole 'evolution is a myth' thing.
The most well known example, that of the giraffe, because I doubt that you'd try and attach some philosophical question that will misrepresent that what you call a myth in the first place:
Lamarckism: the giraffes want to reach the topmost leaves, so they stretch their necks until eventually they reach it, are able to eat and therefore survive. They pass on the longer neck to their descendants.
Darwinsim: among the giraffes, there are those with shorter necks, medium necks and slightly longer necks. They're born with these variations because they receive half their genes from their mother, half from their father, and complex gene interaction could be at play. Mutations also occur, etc. Variation occurs.
Let's say there's a draught, as is common in most of Africa, and other animal species are already in fierce competition for what's left of the grass. Food is becoming more and more scarce and a lot of animals are fighting for it.
Most of these animals (not restricted to the giraffe species) can't reach tree branches. Some giraffes can, due to the added height between their slightly-longer-than-average necks and legs. Those are able to eat more than the others, and just as importantly, they're able to eat what is less fought for, so there's considerably more food for that group of lucky giraffes.
Those giraffes that are able to reach the bottom branches that others cannot are better able to survive and reproduce. They pass on the genes responsible for the longer necks and legs to the next generation. Within that generation, the frequencies of those genes are higher.
The story repeats itself. Within that generation, there will be those who will be better able to out compete the others. They will pass on their genes to the third generation. Gene pool frequency will go even more in that direction once again.
It's important to know that species (group of animals that are genetically close enough to have fertile descendants) evolve, and not individual organisms. Lamarckism focuses on individuals.
***
One more thing, evolutionary theory does not say that giraffes will give birth to guinea pigs (or any other equally absurd example), for instance. I just thought I should thrown that in there, just in case you, like the majority of creationists, think it does.
Why does falling toast always land buttered side down?
Why?
You can ask your child if you wish. If you don't have a small child then your neighbour's children will do.
If your neighbours don't have any children then please feel free to ask your partner, if you feel they are juvenile enough.
Quote from: Stevil on October 11, 2011, 08:31:41 AM
Why does falling toast always land buttered side down?
Why?
It has been revealed to the Wise who in turn have assured us that it's because the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not like his followers eating buttered toast. So much so, in fact, that He will somehow (don't ask - the FSM works in mysterious ways) make sure that it will land on the buttered side.
Maybe major insecurity issues...pictures of false idols have been known to appear on burnt toasts...
I guess the FSM could cause them to spontaneously combust, but that would be too extraordinary.
That's why.
So why, if evolution isn't a myth, are animals made of meat, and food made to grow in trees? And Earth been kept at just the right temperature, and the air made just right for us to breathe?
We've got it all backwards...
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 11, 2011, 02:05:55 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 09:39:22 PM
What's really frustrating is that I feel we're talking at cross purposes, since nearly everything she writes about evolution has nothing to do with it. I wish Bruce would jump in on this one -- he's not Muslim but maybe it takes a religious turn of mind to untangle this.
Unfortunately, I think you are wasting your time. You will never get a straight answer from Happy, as she simply throws out spiritual sounding "wisdom-sayings" that don't fit in a scientific world view. She doesn't seem to understand that she could think on two levels - one scientific and one spiritual - and that the scientific world view is not necessarily inconsistent with the existence of Allah. But Islam is invested in showing that the Qur'an is a perfect book which covers everything in life, and since it doesn't talk about evolution, evolution simply cannot be true. You are wasting your time if you think you are going to get an actual logical discussion.
One reason for engaging with people who have a world view like HF is to allow them to illustrate how dangerous theism can be to some people under some circumstances. I had no real inkling that people could behave like this until I got online.
I don't think we will get anywhere with HF today, but if she gets kicked off the board then she can feel she has had some form of victory as we could not answer her comments. We are sowing seeds today and if we are lucky they may well sprout in due course. In addition if one can't defend one's world view with regard to the scientific method then there may well be something wrong with it. Also it's good practice to revisit one's knowledge and learn how to present that knowledge in a calm/rational manner to a hostile audience.
@ xSilverPhinx
Good post.
Interestingly HF was online and reading this thread yesterday (I keep an eye on who's online to catch spammers before they get to register) and she didn't respond :(
Maybe she finally gave up? Or saw the light, so to speak.
Anyhow. Just read through this thread for the first time, and now I have a headache. :(
Read this thread. Had a headache.
You can't explain that.
The biggest problem with the discussion with Happy Forever, is that HF would not allow anyone to find any kind of common ground in which to start a useful conversation. Many poeple tried many times to find some kind of base to work from and each time HF backed away and moved the goal posts (the word "organism" as brought up by Tank is a good example). This kind of behavior leads me to assume that HF is not interested in dicussion, just preaching.
Quote from: wildfire_emissary on October 12, 2011, 03:52:45 PM
Read this thread. Had a headache.
You can't explain that.
Headaches come, headaches go. But what has it got to do with toast?
Please stop derailing.
HF was last online on the 14th Oct :(
Kudos to everyone in this thread, save for the OP. You guys showed a lot more patience toward someone who wanted nothing more than to preach than I would have. I've seen people make this argument many times before, though I'd have to say this is the first person who claimed to believe in science and logic, while showing such a remarkable lack of understanding for either.
Quote from: Heisenberg on October 23, 2011, 12:25:03 AM
Kudos to everyone in this thread, save for the OP. You guys showed a lot more patience toward someone who wanted nothing more than to preach than I would have. I've seen people make this argument many times before, though I'd have to say this is the first person who claimed to believe in science and logic, while showing such a remarkable lack of understanding for either.
There are many, many people like that and the vast majority (that I have experienced) are Muslims. I get the impression that the power attributed to language is far higher in the arabic world than in the latin world. Thus if something is said correctly it carries it's own intrinsic authority. Very odd to western eyes where language has a more utiliterian/pragmatic use.
Quote from: Tank on October 23, 2011, 01:51:42 AM
Quote from: Heisenberg on October 23, 2011, 12:25:03 AM
Kudos to everyone in this thread, save for the OP. You guys showed a lot more patience toward someone who wanted nothing more than to preach than I would have. I've seen people make this argument many times before, though I'd have to say this is the first person who claimed to believe in science and logic, while showing such a remarkable lack of understanding for either.
There are many, many people like that and the vast majority (that I have experienced) are Muslims. I get the impression that the power attributed to language is far higher in the arabic world than in the latin world. Thus if something is said correctly it carries it's own intrinsic authority. Very odd to western eyes where language has a more utiliterian/pragmatic use.
I've never really thought about it that way before, but this makes a lot of sense to me.
Quote from: Happy Forever on October 10, 2011, 09:35:04 PM
I debated an evolutionist asking him, why do you have eyes? He said "because we evolve through billions of years.
I said "then if you want to fly, will you?! He said "Yes, but after billions of years of course".
It isn't about what you want, but what benefits your specie.
If evolving our arms into rudimentary wings eventually capable of flight was beneficial for humans, we would probably have evolved such - or been on our way to.
QuoteThe same is here, I ask you why you have eyes, you said "in order to see".
Why environment obeys your desire (survival) to see? Why
For your asncestors, having some light-sensitive cells was better than not having those. Then grouping those cells on their forward end made more sense than not. Slight curvature was better than a flat cell surface and you got cup eyes. Eventually, a lens was better than no lens and in the end, you have the eyes you have. (I have skipped a few steps out of laziness and having explained it to quite frankly mindless theists who are not interesting in even considering the explanation before with little to no result) It's not your desire to see that is central to sight, just survival of the best adapted and eyes are a nice and sensible feature to evolve and keep in lit habitats.
QuoteIf nature can selects (this is impossible because nature is rules and rules are mindless), why nature is merciful to work according to your own desire?
What utter bullshit...
It isn't and it doesn't. Life is a race between hunter and hunted, a race for food, reproduction, best habitat and so on. Life evolves because nature, in its mindlessness, is quite ruthless - not merciful.
QuoteWhy trees provides you delicious fruits?
Because you evolved to like fruit and the trees evolved fruit to be liked by the animals for the purpose of spreading their seeds. Are you now going to say that beause trees are mindless and don't have desires, they could not have evolved anything..? ::)
QuoteBecause you desire to eat it in that way?
In part, actually, yes. Your desire to eat things that taste certain ways provide benefit to plants producing such.
QuoteWhy the sun sets?
It doesn't, really. The Earth rotates.
QuoteTo let you sleep at night?
Try far north, if you even believe such a place exists, in the summer. There, the sun doesn't.
QuoteWhy do you have ears?
For the same reason you have eyes, are sensitive to touch and smells.
QuoteBecause natural selects and environment felt your desire through its antenna??
Of course not. It doesn't have an antenna and I've already explained why. In a competitive environment, having ears is better than not having them in a habitat where predators, among other things, are an issue.
QuoteIf you desire then died and your son desires then died,,,, through billions of years of desires, you can fly?
Repeating yourself does not give your pointless prattle any more weight.
QuoteEvolution the myth
No. Your education is, you troll, you.
Quote from: Asmodean on October 23, 2011, 09:09:26 AM
Quote from: HFEvolution the myth
No. Your education is, you troll, you.
I don't think she was a troll, primarily because she stopped posting at the hight of our exasperation with her while we were effectivly answering her posts. That isn't very troll like behaviour, they tend to like getting banned and will push their luck up to, and eventually over, the edge.
Quote from: Tank on October 23, 2011, 10:10:53 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on October 23, 2011, 09:09:26 AM
Quote from: HFEvolution the myth
No. Your education is, you troll, you.
I don't think she was a troll, primarily because she stopped posting at the hight of our exasperation with her while we were effectivly answering her posts. That isn't very troll like behaviour, they tend to like getting banned and will push their luck up to, and eventually over, the edge.
Accusation withdrawn.
As stated, I woke up on the wron side of the coffin today. Coffee might help.
Quote from: Asmodean on October 23, 2011, 10:22:53 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 23, 2011, 10:10:53 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on October 23, 2011, 09:09:26 AM
Quote from: HFEvolution the myth
No. Your education is, you troll, you.
I don't think she was a troll, primarily because she stopped posting at the hight of our exasperation with her while we were effectivly answering her posts. That isn't very troll like behaviour, they tend to like getting banned and will push their luck up to, and eventually over, the edge.
Accusation withdrawn.
As stated, I woke up on the wron side of the coffin today. Coffee might help.
I suspected Lumpy had got up extra Grumpy ;D
Quote from: Tank on October 23, 2011, 10:28:53 AM
I suspected Lumpy had got up extra Grumpy ;D
Trying some cheery music and coffee deserving of a "Corrosive" label to see if that works
Your grumpy posts are actually enjoyable ;D
Quote from: Tank on October 22, 2011, 11:48:26 PM
HF was last online on the 14th Oct :(
No great loss and I hope the deluded fool never comes back.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 04:31:15 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 22, 2011, 11:48:26 PM
HF was last online on the 14th Oct :(
No great loss and I hope the deluded fool never comes back.
N&C
HF is still a member and should be treated in a civil manner until such time as she is no longer a member, if that should ever come to pass.
Tank
I do not respect theism, sorry :-[
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 04:53:12 PM
I do not respect theism, sorry :-[
Your respect, or not, regarding theism does not give licence to break the forum rules and/or culture of civility to individuals who are members here. This is just a reminder.
Quote from: Tank on October 23, 2011, 05:03:34 PM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 04:53:12 PM
I do not respect theism, sorry :-[
Your respect, or not, regarding theism does not give licence to break the forum rules and/or culture of civility to individuals who are members here. This is just a reminder.
I'll consider myself reminded, and will from this day forward treat all theists with respect.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 05:14:35 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 23, 2011, 05:03:34 PM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 04:53:12 PM
I do not respect theism, sorry :-[
Your respect, or not, regarding theism does not give licence to break the forum rules and/or culture of civility to individuals who are members here. This is just a reminder.
I'll consider myself reminded, and will from this day forward treat all theists with respect.
Thanks. It'll be fun to watch ;D
It would have been fun to watch everyone's reaction to what I nearly posted about my new attitude to theism. ;D
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 06:03:58 PM
It would have been fun to watch everyone's reaction to what I nearly posted about my new attitude to theism. ;D
Asmodean, he might have raised an eyebrow. ;D
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 06:03:58 PM
It would have been fun to watch everyone's reaction to what I nearly posted about my new attitude to theism. ;D
I almost made one of those posts last week lol.
I laugh every time that somebody tells me evolution is a myth. I have dyshidrosis and I see evolution on my hands every day. I always tell them "Do you want to see yourself?". ;D Fortunately there are some British medicaments who help a lot with that and my hands are just fine. Next time they ask you about evolution, tell them to check Wikipedia about dyshidrosis. :)
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 01:51:27 PM
A simple question for you:
If you claim that there is no creator and you are evolved, how do you evolve yourself and why will you die?
I haven't been around the board in a while. I have all week off from work, so, I started poking around a bit to see what's been going on. I read this statement and it made my brain hurt...
Quote from: Squid on November 21, 2011, 04:15:00 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 01:51:27 PM
A simple question for you:
If you claim that there is no creator and you are evolved, how do you evolve yourself and why will you die?
I haven't been around the board in a while. I have all week off from work, so, I started poking around a bit to see what's been going on. I read this statement and it made my brain hurt...
You weren't the only one. HF left a while ago, probably fumming at our resistance to her religious furvor.
Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last ;D
Quote from: Squid on November 21, 2011, 04:15:00 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 01:51:27 PM
A simple question for you:
If you claim that there is no creator and you are evolved, how do you evolve yourself and why will you die?
I haven't been around the board in a while. I have all week off from work, so, I started poking around a bit to see what's been going on. I read this statement and it made my brain hurt...
No! Not this post again!
For a minute, I thought Happy Forever had been resurrected!
Quote from: BullyforBronto on November 21, 2011, 05:28:30 PM
Quote from: Squid on November 21, 2011, 04:15:00 PM
Quote from: Happy Forever on September 26, 2011, 01:51:27 PM
A simple question for you:
If you claim that there is no creator and you are evolved, how do you evolve yourself and why will you die?
I haven't been around the board in a while. I have all week off from work, so, I started poking around a bit to see what's been going on. I read this statement and it made my brain hurt...
No! Not this post again!
For a minute, I thought Happy Forever had been resurrected!
No, her understanding evolved (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg710.imageshack.us%2Fimg710%2F9922%2Frimshot.gif&hash=77d5ac078a921ed7ff6be629eed7a4f2ac98bb10)
If you are here to share opinions, listen to other opinions, and use your rational mind to think, great. If you are here for another purpose go away. If heaven is great go there now, please.
Quote from: Jose AR on December 08, 2011, 08:36:11 PM
If you are here to share opinions, listen to other opinions, and use your rational mind to think, great. If you are here for another purpose go away. If heaven is great go there now, please.
Jose.
If a person behaves within the rules they get to stay. If they are here to preach or troll it will usually become apparent and they will be dealt with appropriately by the owner or the staff. It isn't considered 'civil' for one member to tell another member to go away. If you feel a member has broken the rules please report the post and let the staff handle the issue.
Thanks
Tank
Hello, I smell logic in the room and it aint you!
Here goes:
You give science and logic validity when you state them in opposition to something you are against. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend). So by giving science validity you also make valid its precepts and methods. However, in the very next phrase you invalidate science by denegrating our age of "science and mind". What exactly is your position regarding science. Your logic show you to be a flip flopper, you are either with us or against us.
Now, your argument, being so thin leaves very little to disagree with. May I suggest you follow up this post with a more detailed declaration or explanation of your position regarding evolution, science, and logic. Remember, that if you mention 'logic' you are bound by its power. For example, your phrase "countless people" is illogical, as there is no amount of people who cannot be counted. So start from the beginning, give definitions of your key words (science, to me, is ...) and build your case. Remember that the strongest argument has the least assumptions, that there are always assumptions, which you must state, and that the case must be internally consistent. (You probably have a lot of work ahead of you and may want to start with Huxley and work up to Russell.)
Of course I suspect what it all boils down to is "the bible tells me so". If that's the case just admit it, know that you are wrong, and leave science and logic out of it.
Thank you in advance
Jose AR
Quote from: Jose AR on December 18, 2011, 04:50:45 PM
Hello, I smell logic in the room and it aint you!
Here goes:
You give science and logic validity when you state them in opposition to something you are against. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend). So by giving science validity you also make valid its precepts and methods. However, in the very next phrase you invalidate science by denegrating our age of "science and mind". What exactly is your position regarding science. Your logic show you to be a flip flopper, you are either with us or against us.
Now, your argument, being so thin leaves very little to disagree with. May I suggest you follow up this post with a more detailed declaration or explanation of your position regarding evolution, science, and logic. Remember, that if you mention 'logic' you are bound by its power. For example, your phrase "countless people" is illogical, as there is no amount of people who cannot be counted. So start from the beginning, give definitions of your key words (science, to me, is ...) and build your case. Remember that the strongest argument has the least assumptions, that there are always assumptions, which you must state, and that the case must be internally consistent. (You probably have a lot of work ahead of you and may want to start with Huxley and work up to Russell.)
Of course I suspect what it all boils down to is "the bible tells me so". If that's the case just admit it, know that you are wrong, and leave science and logic out of it.
Thank you in advance
Jose AR
Jose
The part of your post I have highlighted isn't necessary, or approprate, on this forum.
Quote from: Tank on December 18, 2011, 05:00:11 PM
Jose
The part of your post I have highlighted isn't necessary, or approprate, on this forum.
...On a vastly more important note, Tank, how come you suddenly has over 8000 posts?! :o Last I looked at your counter, it was more like... 6000 and some.
/Derail ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on December 18, 2011, 07:01:27 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 18, 2011, 05:00:11 PM
Jose
The part of your post I have highlighted isn't necessary, or approprate, on this forum.
...On a vastly more important note, Tank, how come you suddenly has over 8000 posts?! :o Last I looked at your counter, it was more like... 6000 and some.
/Derail ;D
You blinked! :D
Quote from: Tank on December 18, 2011, 07:06:59 PM
You blinked! :D
The Asmo shall catch up with you yet, just you wait and see! (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa174%2Fbrowneyed-girl%2Fsmilies%2520encyclopedia%2Fbad-behaviour%2520offend%2520offended%2520tease%2Foffended3.gif&hash=7d52bf64e07ca61c7012444d9e2bb7de84d15b51)
Quote from: Asmodean on December 18, 2011, 07:09:28 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 18, 2011, 07:06:59 PM
You blinked! :D
The Asmo shall catch up with you yet, just you wait and see! (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa174%2Fbrowneyed-girl%2Fsmilies%2520encyclopedia%2Fbad-behaviour%2520offend%2520offended%2520tease%2Foffended3.gif&hash=7d52bf64e07ca61c7012444d9e2bb7de84d15b51)
Race you to 10,000?
Quote from: Tank on December 18, 2011, 07:18:29 PM
Race you to 10,000?
Are you encouraging The Asmo to post-whore?! :o
:P
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 19, 2011, 12:11:54 AM
You don't encourage a fish to be a fish.
:o The Asmo is NOT a fish!
He a fungus. Made of clay.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 18, 2011, 08:27:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 18, 2011, 07:18:29 PM
Race you to 10,000?
Are you encouraging The Asmo to post-whore?! :o
:P
Wait a minute, wait a minute! Are we about to have a whore down? Snacks, spectators need snacks!
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 19, 2011, 03:31:16 AM
Wait a minute, wait a minute! Are we about to have a whore down?
In the mud too, if the weather warms up a bit ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on December 19, 2011, 01:05:28 AM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 19, 2011, 12:11:54 AM
You don't encourage a fish to be a fish.
:o The Asmo is NOT a fish!
He a fungus. Made of clay.
Sweet jelly bellies, I just noticed you are almost at 4,500! :o
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 19, 2011, 09:13:09 PM
Sweet jelly bellies, I just noticed you are almost at 4,500! :o
The race is heating up! ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on December 19, 2011, 09:21:06 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 19, 2011, 09:13:09 PM
Sweet jelly bellies, I just noticed you are almost at 4,500! :o
The race is heating up! ;D
Asmo 3.348 post per day
Tank 13.885 posts per day
Just sayin' ;D
Quote from: Tank on December 19, 2011, 09:25:00 PM
Asmo 3.348 post per day
Tank 13.885 posts per day
Just sayin' ;D
Pfft! Details! ::)
The Asmo, he shall find a way around common sense and the laws of physics and THEN... Then... Eh... Where was me Book of Easy Steps to World Domination?! ???
Quote from: Asmodean on December 19, 2011, 09:28:42 PMThe Asmo, he shall find a way around common sense and the laws of physics and THEN... Then... Eh... Where was me Book of Easy Steps to World Domination?! ???
I don't know where you left your book, but I can direct you to the Evil Overlord List (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html), which is mostly advice on how to avoid the common mistakes made by aspiring super-villains/Evil Overlords. ;)
The Asmo, he could have written that list himself, with some minor changes of cosmethic nature. ;D
Quote from: Tank on December 19, 2011, 09:25:00 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 19, 2011, 09:21:06 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 19, 2011, 09:13:09 PM
Sweet jelly bellies, I just noticed you are almost at 4,500! :o
The race is heating up! ;D
Asmo 3.348 post per day
Tank 13.885 posts per day
Just sayin' ;D
There's a reason they call him "Tank" ;)