so whats the god response to animals?

[tacoma_kyle]

I was always kinda confused on that, it seems to be a little vague and unexplained.

Go to heaven?

Hell?

Just die?...

[Whitney]

I saw a discussion about this on one of those rapture related forums...they came to the conclusion that the  bible doesn't say what happens to the animals.

some of them came to the personal conclusion that the animals go to heaven because it wouldn't be heaven without their beloved pets.

Theoretically...considering that animals can't be saved (i'm pretty sure the bible is clear that jesus came to save mankind and mentions nothing about saving the animals)...if they have souls they'd go to hell.  If they don't have souls then there would be nothing to go to heaven.

[Mister Joy]

Theoretically...considering that animals can't be saved (i'm pretty sure the bible is clear that jesus came to save mankind and mentions nothing about saving the animals)...if they have souls they'd go to hell. If they don't have souls then there would be nothing to go to heaven.

But animals didn't eat from the tree of knowledge or what have you. When Adam and Eve condemned mankind did they also condemn the rest of nature? Confusing topic.

[tacoma_kyle]

It seems so [confusing]...

Maybe thats why religion is so quiet about specifics regarding it..typically anyhow.

[Mister Joy]

I think you can take most aspects of Christian belief, ask questions on a level that requires a more detailed answer than the vague hammering decrees of the Bible and it gets them wound up in knots, throwing out whole platoons of straw men and giving handfuls of links to this bane of my existence:

Just do a simple search on http://www.creationontheweb.com instead of asking me.

I've seen that one come up hundreds of times. The website contains no answers (what a shock that must be for you) but a whole bunch of rhetoric and flim-flam that gives them lots of space for avoiding points. Some day I'm going to pick through the entire thing, refute every sentence & set that up as a website so I can link them to it for next time. Otherwise it's just a case of dealing with the specific article they send, which they would probably simply send a second time anyway or just link to more. Grr.

[SteveS]

Interesting what the bible does have to say about this, or at least the book of Ecclesiastes:

Ecclesiastes 3:19 through 3:21:

3:19  For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

This passage seems to imply that there is no difference between animals and men, and that both return to dust upon death.

Weird, right?  This particular book in the bible drives so many of the interesting contradictions.....

[myleviathan]

There is a verse about the worms in hell that won't die (Mark 9:44). Since there will be eternal flesh eating worms in Hell it's reasonable to assume there can be more pleasant animals in heaven. Also in Isaiah 11:6 there is a prophecy about wolves dwelling wih lambs, leopards laying with kids, and calves and lions being led by a child... but it's hard to say if "Isaiah" meant this literally or metaphorically. You can take it either way! That's what's so great about the Bible! It's as specific or as vague as your personal emotional needs desire!

[HappyBigPicture]

Why would an animal be judged on morality?  I think we can all agree that, yes, their behavior is mostly out of line, but they do not know it.  If you don't know its wrong and you do it, then you have no case against you.  Same goes with mentally retarded people that unknowingly commit murder.  This hypothetical justice system would be subjective for it to be fair.

[Mister Joy]

I think a Christian would argue that it's the knowledge of good and evil itself that enables us to sin... if an act is committed in innocence then it isn't sinful, therefore. It contradicts this, however, with the notion that babies - who have not had the opportunity to 'repent' - go to Hell despite having no knowledge of good and evil due to 'original sin' (something which animals don't have, presumably, since they never ate from the tree of knowledge). Mixed messages abound.

[ryanvc76]

I can't seem to trouble myself with all of this kind of stuff.  There are so many mixed messages simply due to the fact that it is all bullshit to start with.  Thats the thing with religions; you can make up the rules as you go and change them around as you so see fit.

[HappyBigPicture]

There are many commands in the Bible that are absurd and barbaric.  For example, the stoning to death of individuals for trivial things like not attending church (Numbers 15:32-36).

It is important to note that at the time these books were written, order was a huge priority as many people had already savage ways, so a government putting fear in people kept a lot of them at bay.  Not the best way of handling things, but even governments weren't sophisticated enough then.

It's important for us to recognize how immature civilizations were in those times, and the Bible captures the barbarism well, and rightly stirs up skepticism for our more modern philosophers.  Anyone with common sense knows that its illegal to take the law into your own hands, find some buddies and a rock garden and kill someone because they didn't attend mass.

Yeah, there are mixed messages, but I think anyone with a good sense of morality can discern which ones are nonsense.  However, saying that "it is all bullshit" is completely out of line.  There are ESSENTIAL lessons to be learned in the Bible on how to prevent yourself from hurting people and others from hurting you.

I'm an agnostic theist by the way.

[Mister Joy]

Yeah, there are mixed messages, but I think anyone with a good sense of morality can discern which ones are nonsense. However, saying that "it is all bullshit" is completely out of line. There are ESSENTIAL lessons to be learned in the Bible on how to prevent yourself from hurting people and others from hurting you.

When you use the word 'essential' there do you imply that the Bible was the originator of our moral state of mind? Similar messages can be found in other religious books. Also, I, as a single example amongst countless millions, have never even read the Bible (tried to once but only reached 3/4 of the way through Genesis before getting bored). Is there some spiritual truth that people like me have missed out on?

[ryanvc76]

However, saying that "it is all bullshit" is completely out of line.  There are ESSENTIAL lessons to be learned in the Bible on how to prevent yourself from hurting people and others from hurting you.

Honestly, I don't think that I'm out of line in saying this.  If you're a decent person at all, you don't need the Bible to teach these "essential lessons".  This statement would imply that those who have not read the Bible - a large part of the worlds population - have no idea how to prevent themselves from hurting others or from being hurt by others.  I find such an implication absurd at best.

[myleviathan]

There are ESSENTIAL lessons to be learned in the Bible on how to prevent yourself from hurting people and others from hurting you.

I think that there are lessons to be learned in the Bible, but they are mixed up with a bunch of myths about burning bushes, hallucinagenic fascinations, talking snakes, adulterous kings, not to mention incidences of blood sacrifice of animals, humans, and godmen. I love myths, but not for their moral lessons. I like them because they are historical and interesting. If you're looking for moral teachings I think a Dr. Phil book would be more relevant and to the point than the Bible. You have to wade through a lot of shit in the Bible to find a gem.

[Tricky_Niki]

There are many lessons in the bible but many of them are contradicted in the next verse or chapter. As far as animals go I am not sure what the bible says because I am sure it says many different things. I was taught as a child that animals have no soul and are not allowed into heaven. So I would think that since they don't go to heaven they can't go to hell either.