Christianity, why the need?

[Dobermonster]

Obviously someone who is a literalist and thinks only concretely isn't going to get that. But then concrete thinking is a symptom of mental retardation, and you can only compare your intelligence to retarded people for so long before you start looking retarded yourself. Righ?

Since when did mental retardation correlate to concrete thinking and who are you trying to imply is mentally retarded.  Nothing about the above sounds very civil to me.

He misunderstands what he's trying to say. The inability to think in abstract thoughts is linked to developmental disabilities. In other words, *only* being able to interpret things literally. For example, if I said to someone unable to think abstractly, "It's raining cats and dogs", they would look up and ask where the cats and dogs were that were falling from the sky. Concrete thinking itself is not a symptom of mental retardation. False syllogisms, however, are symptoms of an illogical mind.

[Too Few Lions]

plus I think it could be argued that all Christians are literalistic in the way they interpret some biblical mythology and allegory. Personally I don't think that virgin births, walking on water or resurrections from the dead are any more real or believable than talking snakes or worldwide floods.

[Whitney]

Obviously someone who is a literalist and thinks only concretely isn't going to get that. But then concrete thinking is a symptom of mental retardation, and you can only compare your intelligence to retarded people for so long before you start looking retarded yourself. Righ?

Since when did mental retardation correlate to concrete thinking and who are you trying to imply is mentally retarded.  Nothing about the above sounds very civil to me.

He misunderstands what he's trying to say. The inability to think in abstract thoughts is linked to developmental disabilities. In other words, *only* being able to interpret things literally. For example, if I said to someone unable to think abstractly, "It's raining cats and dogs", they would look up and ask where the cats and dogs were that were falling from the sky. Concrete thinking itself is not a symptom of mental retardation. False syllogisms, however, are symptoms of an illogical mind.

I think it's important the he be more clear when comparing anyone to being mentally delayed.

Egor, if you don't offer a clarification on this you are done here.  You already "ducked out" of one thread and obviously have done so with this one as well.  HAF doesn't need to be supporting your blog by allowing you a platform to drive traffic to it.

[fester30]

Then again, there are different forms of mental disability.  Autistic people don't do well with abstract thinking, and with the cats and dogs statement, would be the ones looking up expecting cats and dogs to fall out of the sky.  However, some autistics have special talents that in some ways make them more intelligent, as there are multiple measures of intelligence.

[xSilverPhinx]

I think that this question is very interesting too and I've gathered quite a few impressions over the years. It's more emotional and existential than having anything to do with intelligence. A brilliant person can compartmentalise their beliefs quite easily, apply their scepticism to everything else in everyday life, but not let the sceptic part of their brain and the faith-harboring part mingled for many reasons, all those reasons acting together to create and maintain a whole belief system that revolves around a god, purpose for their entire existence and ignorance (which is different from stupidity).

IMO you're focusing on the less sophisticated ideas religions and spirituality can provide with your literalist examples.

For instance the literalist stories of the Greek mythology are not very sophisticated. Sure they have some morals, some adventures and blah blah but in the end they're good stories with purposes. Children like stories, and since they're rather childish they aren't really that impressive to more mature minds, even with all the good morals and symbolic ideas behind them.

The Hindu idea of Brahman, for instance, as the source of all being (and even of all their other gods) is much more philosophically sophisticated. More like adult thinking.

You have to remember that people are psychologically primed for belief in gods, and with a culture that encourages it most don't stand a chance

Here's an excellent video, Why We Believe in Gods, about 1 hour long, which takes the evolutionary psychological approach.

There are a few things on YouTube from Michael Shermer as well, on why people believe in weird things.

The main problem Christians have going for them is that much of their dogma relies on ideas that are rather absurd, or at least require extraordinary evidence. They focus more on what they don't know ('maybe a virgin birth happened just in this one case' or 'whereas other animals would've suffered irreparable brain tissue damage after 3 days, Jesus didn't and still rose from the dead') rather than on what they do. Recognising that they don't know and that some ultra wise book does is enough to cause many to believe. The fact that the book is riddled with problems doesn't really change that in their eyes, they cherry pick the parts that fit with their experience. But they compartmentalise, or open exceptions (faith is a virtue). *shrug*

[Truthseeker]

Great musings xSilver.  And I can see where compartmentalizing would play a role in preserving the integrity of this type of warped thinking.  Still, I am so bemused by the NEED, and I use that word intetionally, to cherish even the main tenet of Christianity.  Let's dispell with the Greek mythology of the Bible for a minute and assume that all Christians view those stories as nothing more than allegorical.  Incidently most Christians look at those strange phenomena as miracles from god.  He can do whatever he wants to do in their mind so it all makes sense.  But let's leave all that on the shelf for a moment.  Basically, what you have left is the ultimatum to submit to the atoning grace of Christ or entry into an eternal torture that makes Auschwitz look like a tirp to the playground at McDonalds.  All of which has been orchestrated by a supreme being whose love for us is beyond comprehension.  Well, I'll tell you what is beyond comprehension: the reality of just about an entire nation's love affair with such a methodogy.  I just do not understand.  I do not!

I mean I personally know and you do as well I presume, individuals whose minds are a hell of a lot sharper than mine who are hypnotized by this thing.  Why is this belief so obviously nonsensical in my mind and others who are more advanced than me would lay down thier life for it?  A perplexing delima to say the least.  I am not trying to disparage Christian belief.  Really I am not. It is just bewildering.  Like the sense I get every time I look at Stonehenge.  How the hell did those bastards build that damn thing 4,500 years ago?  My mind just keeps yearning to figure it out.  It is hungry for an answer.  It may be that this will simply fall into the category of "how far out is space?".

??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Thanks for you patience.         

[Ivan Tudor C McHock]

Some people have individual religious experiences that create faith.  I see nothing that prevents there being a creator god who communicates with his creation in some fashion, and if some people have experiences that are convincing to them about the existence of such a god, they believe. It's really pretty simple.

Actually, it is not simple at all.  I find it incredibly perplexing that otherwise intelligent people buy into the belief system that I described earlier regardless what experiences they may have encountered.  Again, the cinder block of this belief is that a supreme being that encompasses incomprehensible love and forgiveness (again, right out of scripture), on the one hand, also would allow me and has allowed billions, to walk right into the epicenter of an eternity of unimaginable suffering.  I just needed one glimpse at my son to know that that does not make sense in the least.  I rode the "He moves in mysterious ways" and "His ways are higher than our ways" verses into the ground.  I really latched onto them for a time.  But after a while I needed to know, in this instance anyway, just what were his ways.  So no.  It is not simple in any way. 

You only set forth one possible interpretation of Christianity.  There are many Christians who do not take talking snakes, etc, literally, and see no conflict between faith and science. But, if you are limiting your view of Christiany to the hyper literal interpretation of the Bible, then I suppose my example doesn't work.

I suppose such christians would feel that they were applying a degree of reason to their faith by rejecting the talking-snake story.

Unfortunately, they presumably continue to subscribe to the story that has a dude zapping up ***a universe*** with his magic wand.

My advice to christians would be to focus less on the peripheral bullshit, and more on the core bullshit.

[Whitney]

Obviously someone who is a literalist and thinks only concretely isn't going to get that. But then concrete thinking is a symptom of mental retardation, and you can only compare your intelligence to retarded people for so long before you start looking retarded yourself. Righ?

Since when did mental retardation correlate to concrete thinking and who are you trying to imply is mentally retarded.  Nothing about the above sounds very civil to me.

He misunderstands what he's trying to say. The inability to think in abstract thoughts is linked to developmental disabilities. In other words, *only* being able to interpret things literally. For example, if I said to someone unable to think abstractly, "It's raining cats and dogs", they would look up and ask where the cats and dogs were that were falling from the sky. Concrete thinking itself is not a symptom of mental retardation. False syllogisms, however, are symptoms of an illogical mind.

I think it's important the he be more clear when comparing anyone to being mentally delayed.

Egor, if you don't offer a clarification on this you are done here.  You already "ducked out" of one thread and obviously have done so with this one as well.  HAF doesn't need to be supporting your blog by allowing you a platform to drive traffic to it.

Since Egor came back, continued to complain about nothing, and continued to ignore this thread then he's banned.  We can't keep giving him a pass just because he's got nothing better to do than create socks and pretend like he is a martyr for jesus.

[Amicale]

Obviously someone who is a literalist and thinks only concretely isn't going to get that. But then concrete thinking is a symptom of mental retardation, and you can only compare your intelligence to retarded people for so long before you start looking retarded yourself. Righ?

Since when did mental retardation correlate to concrete thinking and who are you trying to imply is mentally retarded.  Nothing about the above sounds very civil to me.

He misunderstands what he's trying to say. The inability to think in abstract thoughts is linked to developmental disabilities. In other words, *only* being able to interpret things literally. For example, if I said to someone unable to think abstractly, "It's raining cats and dogs", they would look up and ask where the cats and dogs were that were falling from the sky. Concrete thinking itself is not a symptom of mental retardation. False syllogisms, however, are symptoms of an illogical mind.

I think it's important the he be more clear when comparing anyone to being mentally delayed.

Egor, if you don't offer a clarification on this you are done here.  You already "ducked out" of one thread and obviously have done so with this one as well.  HAF doesn't need to be supporting your blog by allowing you a platform to drive traffic to it.

Since Egor came back, continued to complain about nothing, and continued to ignore this thread then he's banned.  We can't keep giving him a pass just because he's got nothing better to do than create socks and pretend like he is a martyr for jesus.

Actually, I had a bit of a chat with him on his blog. His most recent post, the Veridican Creed of Salvation. There are several reasons I've come to my opinions and since he's apparently not here any longer, it'd be kinder not to discuss them 'in public' but basically, there are a lot of signs and symptoms that point towards Edward needing some help. I recognized them because I know them in myself. He needs a licensed psychiatrist. I don't say that to insult his views, I saw it because of what he explained to me on his blog. There are so many symptoms showing that I'd be amiss if I didn't suggest at least getting checked out by a doc, and I sincerely hope that if he decides to, it helps him.

[Whitney]

Agreed. I also hope he gets whatever help he needs

[xSilverPhinx]

Great musings xSilver.  And I can see where compartmentalizing would play a role in preserving the integrity of this type of warped thinking.  Still, I am so bemused by the NEED, and I use that word intetionally, to cherish even the main tenet of Christianity.  Let's dispell with the Greek mythology of the Bible for a minute and assume that all Christians view those stories as nothing more than allegorical.  Incidently most Christians look at those strange phenomena as miracles from god.  He can do whatever he wants to do in their mind so it all makes sense.  But let's leave all that on the shelf for a moment.  Basically, what you have left is the ultimatum to submit to the atoning grace of Christ or entry into an eternal torture that makes Auschwitz look like a tirp to the playground at McDonalds.  All of which has been orchestrated by a supreme being whose love for us is beyond comprehension.  Well, I'll tell you what is beyond comprehension: the reality of just about an entire nation's love affair with such a methodogy.  I just do not understand.  I do not!

I mean I personally know and you do as well I presume, individuals whose minds are a hell of a lot sharper than mine who are hypnotized by this thing.  Why is this belief so obviously nonsensical in my mind and others who are more advanced than me would lay down thier life for it?  A perplexing delima to say the least.  I am not trying to disparage Christian belief.  Really I am not. It is just bewildering.  Like the sense I get every time I look at Stonehenge.  How the hell did those bastards build that damn thing 4,500 years ago?  My mind just keeps yearning to figure it out.  It is hungry for an answer.  It may be that this will simply fall into the category of "how far out is space?".

??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Thanks for you patience.         

Um...Pascal's Wager perhaps? ???

I don't really know, I also find it to be a very interesting question. Paradoxical.

[Crow]

I don't think it really has much to do with intellect, reason, or logic (bar a few exceptions)...

But how can I escape the illogical idea that someone who, on the one hand holds to the notion that they serve an ever loving, ever forgiving god whose mercy endures forever (all of that straight out of scripture) and then also holds to the hell deal if you make the wrong choice.  How can I escape the idea that they are not using their intellect?  Especially when I have seen their intellect work full throttle in other areas.  Surely this boils down to some type of aversion to intellectual honesty when it comes to this subject.  No?  

If the individuals you are referring to are taking their holy book as the literal word of their god then I would say it's a lack of certain cognitive abilities, or perhaps if they do not take the books literally they may have an honest lack of knowledge on certain areas, therefore ignorant in areas but not lacking intelligence.

What parameters are you setting for intelligence? To be educated (or even possess a high IQ) doesn't necessarily mean somebody is intelligent it just means they possess the ability for convergent thinking, which if looking at the context of the bible in a literal sense they are doing just that. What it does highlight is there inability for divergent thinking. I would also say this is true for many "hard" atheists, they are unable to see the myriad of interpretations or solutions of questions and unable to think laterally, linearly and convergent resulting in a black and white worldview and thought process.

If you take the example you used with the believer of a loving god who sends people to suffer for eternity for not following its word, they are showing the classical example of convergent thinking with a lack of critical thinking (which education at the standard level endorses if not encourages) as the biblical scriptures say it is so and therefore see no conflict, as the god is loving to his creation but punishes them for disobedience not unlike parents who beat their children for misbehavior.

[Truthseeker]

If the individuals you are referring to are taking their holy book as the literal word of their god then I would say it's a lack of certain cognitive abilities, or perhaps if they do not take the books literally they may have an honest lack of knowledge on certain areas, therefore ignorant in areas but not lacking intelligence.

What parameters are you setting for intelligence? To be educated (or even possess a high IQ) doesn't necessarily mean somebody is intelligent it just means they possess the ability for convergent thinking, which if looking at the context of the bible in a literal sense they are doing just that. What it does highlight is there inability for divergent thinking. I would also say this is true for many "hard" atheists, they are unable to see the myriad of interpretations or solutions of questions and unable to think laterally, linearly and convergent resulting in a black and white worldview and thought process.

Thank you for your indulgence on this topic.  I find it a quite interesting discussion. 

I really appreciate your diagnosis of divergent thinking.  It resonates with me.  You could be correct in your implication that my parameters for intelligence may be off course.  I have always considered deductive reasoning a sign, at least in some part, of intelligence.  And my standard example of believing in a loving god who allows for a place like hell and all the while using deductive reasoning is counterintuitive.  But like I said, perhaps I should dispel with my notion that deductive reasoning is a sign of intelligence.

( Incidentally, for future use in your discussions with Christians on this matter, allow me to warn you of an argument that they will proffer to your point "god SENDS people to suffer for eternity".  They will say he does not SEND them there, they choose by not accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and savior. I used to use this argument with full conviction in my day. So I simply state "god allows for us to enter into this eternal suffering".  It is still a deplorable and repugnant response from a being that is loving and merciful.  )

If you take the example you used with the believer of a loving god who sends people to suffer for eternity for not following its word, they are showing the classical example of convergent thinking with a lack of critical thinking (which education at the standard level endorses if not encourages) as the biblical scriptures say it is so and therefore see no conflict, as the god is loving to his creation but punishes them for disobedience not unlike parents who beat their children for misbehavior.

My dilemma here is that parents are ostensibly beating their children to CORRECT a wrong doing so that they will not commit the same infraction in the future.  The hell deal is a "final resolution" if you will.  No second chances.  It serves absolutely no future benefit; quite the opposite actually.

[Crow]

My dilemma here is that parents are ostensibly beating their children to CORRECT a wrong doing so that they will not commit the same infraction in the future.  The hell deal is a "final resolution" if you will.  No second chances.  It serves absolutely no future benefit; quite the opposite actually.

But it does work as a brilliant device for control. There is also Universal reconciliation which many churches and individuals of other churches believe in, so a solution has been created for the inconsistency which may be a good enough solution for some that question it. Also some people may rejoice in the idea that atheists, people of other faiths, homosexuals, liberals, and all the other heathens will burn in hell for eternity.

[Truthseeker]

But it does work as a brilliant device for control. There is also Universal reconciliation which many churches and individuals of other churches believe in, so a solution has been created for the inconsistency which may be a good enough solution for some that question it. Also some people may rejoice in the idea that atheists, people of other faiths, homosexuals, liberals, and all the other heathens will burn in hell for eternity.

See, here we have yet another non sequitur (and many others run rampant) of Christendom.  You are precisely correct in your analysis.  Some Christians do rejoice in the idea that others will burn in hell (I was never one of those incidentally).  But let's put those aside for a moment. 

In discussing the general run of the mill Christian we find that even though they believe that these heathens will in fact end up in hell, they also will preach just as fervently that god loves them with an incomprehensible love.  This god is also possessed with a mercy that will never end.  Furthermore, he is all powerful, implying that he could put a stop to it at any moment.  Again, all of this is straight out of scripture.  I personally and intimately know very successful people (no doubt everyone on this board does) who have this mindset.  Yet they would have never, ever been successful in their various enterprises with this mindset.  It is smothered in half thought.  And yet again these people are deep thoughtful thinkers in every other area of their lives.   Why this belief is so pervasive is a  conundrum of the highest order that I may never fully understand.