Christianity, why the need?

[Tank]

AD are you actually going to answer the OP?

[Stevil]

You are a master at avoiding answering simple questions.
You have stated in the past that homosexuality is an aberration, that it is a sin. I assume this means in your eyes it is bad.
In this thread you have sarcastically stated "Christians don't think for themselves."
I am challenging you on this.
I would be very keen to know how AD the Christian thinks for himself and how he uses his thinking abilities to reason that homosexuality is bad.

I'm not sure I've ever written that homosexuality is an aberration exactly.  However, I'm sure wherever you got this from probably states my opinion on the matter already.

It seems to me you're taking this thread here off topic.

At the time, when I questioned you about your choice of words, you reduced it down to "sin", we didn't delve into the why, I just assumed it was because of divine authority and lack of ability to think on *your behalf.

Anyway, yes, off topic. Just ignore. I've made my point already.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Some people have individual religious experiences that create faith.  I see nothing that prevents there being a creator god who communicates with his creation in some fashion, and if some people have experiences that are convincing to them about the existence of such a god, they believe. It's really pretty simple. 

[Truthseeker]

Some people have individual religious experiences that create faith.  I see nothing that prevents there being a creator god who communicates with his creation in some fashion, and if some people have experiences that are convincing to them about the existence of such a god, they believe. It's really pretty simple.

Actually, it is not simple at all.  I find it incredibly perplexing that otherwise intelligent people buy into the belief system that I described earlier regardless what experiences they may have encountered.  Again, the cinder block of this belief is that a supreme being that encompasses incomprehensible love and forgiveness (again, right out of scripture), on the one hand, also would allow me and has allowed billions, to walk right into the epicenter of an eternity of unimaginable suffering.  I just needed one glimpse at my son to know that that does not make sense in the least.  I rode the "He moves in mysterious ways" and "His ways are higher than our ways" verses into the ground.  I really latched onto them for a time.  But after a while I needed to know, in this instance anyway, just what were his ways.  So no.  It is not simple in any way.     

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Some people have individual religious experiences that create faith.  I see nothing that prevents there being a creator god who communicates with his creation in some fashion, and if some people have experiences that are convincing to them about the existence of such a god, they believe. It's really pretty simple.

Actually, it is not simple at all.  I find it incredibly perplexing that otherwise intelligent people buy into the belief system that I described earlier regardless what experiences they may have encountered.  Again, the cinder block of this belief is that a supreme being that encompasses incomprehensible love and forgiveness (again, right out of scripture), on the one hand, also would allow me and has allowed billions, to walk right into the epicenter of an eternity of unimaginable suffering.  I just needed one glimpse at my son to know that that does not make sense in the least.  I rode the "He moves in mysterious ways" and "His ways are higher than our ways" verses into the ground.  I really latched onto them for a time.  But after a while I needed to know, in this instance anyway, just what were his ways.  So no.  It is not simple in any way. 

You only set forth one possible interpretation of Christianity.  There are many Christians who do not take talking snakes, etc, literally, and see no conflict between faith and science. But, if you are limiting your view of Christiany to the hyper literal interpretation of the Bible, then I suppose my example doesn't work.

[Dobermonster]

Some people have individual religious experiences that create faith.  I see nothing that prevents there being a creator god who communicates with his creation in some fashion, and if some people have experiences that are convincing to them about the existence of such a god, they believe. It's really pretty simple.  

I tend to think there is a grain of truth in the 'personal religious experience' story. I've experienced such a sensation when coaxed into religious hysteria along with hundreds of other kids by church leaders. Almost every ultimate reason for belief comes down to this phenomenon (i.e. "I had an experience, and you don't know what I experienced, so I can say it's divine"). Only . . . . I really don't believe that that's the reason. I can see it being the little latch on the hope-chest of belief - that finishing touch that protects everything it contains. You have religious experiences because you believe; you don't believe because you had religious experiences. That's my speculation, anyways.

[statichaos]

Biblical literalism doesn't work for me at all.  However, despite some theological differences, I have no issues with those who choose a more liberal and metaphorical interpretation.

[Truthseeker]

Some people have individual religious experiences that create faith.  I see nothing that prevents there being a creator god who communicates with his creation in some fashion, and if some people have experiences that are convincing to them about the existence of such a god, they believe. It's really pretty simple.

Actually, it is not simple at all.  I find it incredibly perplexing that otherwise intelligent people buy into the belief system that I described earlier regardless what experiences they may have encountered.  Again, the cinder block of this belief is that a supreme being that encompasses incomprehensible love and forgiveness (again, right out of scripture), on the one hand, also would allow me and has allowed billions, to walk right into the epicenter of an eternity of unimaginable suffering.  I just needed one glimpse at my son to know that that does not make sense in the least.  I rode the "He moves in mysterious ways" and "His ways are higher than our ways" verses into the ground.  I really latched onto them for a time.  But after a while I needed to know, in this instance anyway, just what were his ways.  So no.  It is not simple in any way.

You only set forth one possible interpretation of Christianity.  There are many Christians who do not take talking snakes, etc, literally, and see no conflict between faith and science. But, if you are limiting your view of Christiany to the hyper literal interpretation of the Bible, then I suppose my example doesn't work.

OK.  I hear what you are saying.  And I agree.  But lets just take my last post where I jettisoned the talking snake line and just focused on the bare fundamental principle of Christianity, that being a salvation from eternal suffering.  If one dispels with this tenet of Christianity than the belief has to go by another name.  That is Christianity in its truest form.  The idea of buying into that alone baffles my mind.  I simply have never come to terms with how in god's name a rational intellect could possibly subscribe to such a theory.  I mean is it easy for you to see where they are coming from here? 

It should be noted, I suppose, that I am the only one in my family that has detoured off of this road.  My wife, children, parents, brothers and a few of my friends still hang on to atonement.     

[Amicale]

Or, they don't think for themselves because they are fully intrenched in the Christianity and its teachings.

Interesting that only those that disbelieve think for themselves.  Chalk another one up for the stupidity of believers.

I don't see how you were able to twist that out of what was said. There are plenty of people who never leave a particular mentality or mindset because they're so entrenched in it and its teachings that they'd likely never leave it. That can apply to Christians, atheists, Muslims, Jews, or anyone really. I know more than a few atheists personally who are atheist simply because their whole family is atheist, and they've learned to imitate their elders very well, without really thinking through the issues themselves. It could happen to anyone. The unwillingness to think for yourself isn't soley a theistic trait.

[Crow]

It should be noted, I suppose, that I am the only one in my family that has detoured off of this road.  My wife, children, parents, brothers and a few of my friends still hang on to atonement.     

Whats the reason that your family and certain friends "hang on to" there belief?

[Egor]

I was traveling into work on my 45 minute drive and I turned on the radio to an AM gospel program. Where I live, the southern accent was almost like listening to another lanquage. It sounded like the worst redneck simplton preaching you've ever heard on a know-nothing local AM station.

But as I started to listen, I realized the preacher really was extracting abstract lessons from the Gospel of John. For all his cultural identity, he was actually acting with a pretty high IQ.

And that's why people believe it. Because the stories you mention are more than what they seem to be. In hearing them, there are symbols, abstractions, wisdom, insight into the very mind of God. The water into wine miracle is silly on the face of it. Maybe it happened--who knows. It was a long time ago, and no one around today was there to see what went down.

But what about the concept of Christ being the creator of the truth we are to consume. And when we do, how great will that revelation be. And if it was the wine that was brought out later and is better, we can see the evolution of the revelation of God throughout the history of man, culminating in the concept of Christ.

Obviously someone who is a literalist and thinks only concretely isn't going to get that. But then concrete thinking is a symptom of mental retardation, and you can only compare your intelligence to retarded people for so long before you start looking retarded yourself. Right?

[Dobermonster]

I was traveling into work on my 45 minute drive and I turned on the radio to an AM gospel program. Where I live, the southern accent was almost like listening to another lanquage. It sounded like the worst redneck simplton preaching you've ever heard on a know-nothing local AM station.

But as I started to listen, I realized the preacher really was extracting abstract lessons from the Gospel of John. For all his cultural identity, he was actually acting with a pretty high IQ.

And that's why people believe it. Because the stories you mention are more than what they seem to be. In hearing them, there are symbols, abstractions, wisdom, insight into the very mind of God. The water into wine miracle is silly on the face of it. Maybe it happened--who knows. It was a long time ago, and no one around today was there to see what went down.

But what about the concept of Christ being the creator of the truth we are to consume. And when we do, how great will that revelation be. And if it was the wine that was brought out later and is better, we can see the evolution of the revelation of God throughout the history of man, culminating in the concept of Christ.

Obviously someone who is a literalist and thinks only concretely isn't going to get that. But then concrete thinking is a symptom of mental retardation, and you can only compare your intelligence to retarded people for so long before you start looking retarded yourself. Righ?

But what makes you so sure that these symbols, revelations, abstract concepts, etc, are divine whispers from literature, and not something you are reading into what is otherwise a collection of myths and poetry? Think of art critics assembled around a piece of modern art - some say the piece represents the inner turmoil between innate good and evil, others say it is a social commentary on prejudice and the need for change, and then there are the ones at the back who say it's a defaced urinal.

[Truthseeker]

It should be noted, I suppose, that I am the only one in my family that has detoured off of this road.  My wife, children, parents, brothers and a few of my friends still hang on to atonement.     

Whats the reason that your family and certain friends "hang on to" there belief?

I guess that is my question to you and the purpose of this thread.  I am at a complete loss as to why any rational intellect would gain a damn thing from this tragic ultimatum. 

[Truthseeker]

I was traveling into work on my 45 minute drive and I turned on the radio to an AM gospel program. Where I live, the southern accent was almost like listening to another lanquage. It sounded like the worst redneck simplton preaching you've ever heard on a know-nothing local AM station.

But as I started to listen, I realized the preacher really was extracting abstract lessons from the Gospel of John. For all his cultural identity, he was actually acting with a pretty high IQ.

And that's why people believe it. Because the stories you mention are more than what they seem to be. In hearing them, there are symbols, abstractions, wisdom, insight into the very mind of God. The water into wine miracle is silly on the face of it. Maybe it happened--who knows. It was a long time ago, and no one around today was there to see what went down.

But what about the concept of Christ being the creator of the truth we are to consume. And when we do, how great will that revelation be. And if it was the wine that was brought out later and is better, we can see the evolution of the revelation of God throughout the history of man, culminating in the concept of Christ.

Obviously someone who is a literalist and thinks only concretely isn't going to get that. But then concrete thinking is a symptom of mental retardation, and you can only compare your intelligence to retarded people for so long before you start looking retarded yourself. Righ?

Egor,

It seems you are a Christian.  I know where you are coming from.  Believe me.  I spent more than 10 solid years kneeling with my arms and heart open to the lord.  I studied that Bible inside and out.  My aim was to be a preacher or an evangelist.  So I know all to well the value you place on your relationship with Christ and I do not me to dismiss that.

But please forget about the literal interpretation thing.  Forget I brought it up and just read what I posited about the afterlife and tell me how that belief possibly makes any sense to you.

[Whitney]

Obviously someone who is a literalist and thinks only concretely isn't going to get that. But then concrete thinking is a symptom of mental retardation, and you can only compare your intelligence to retarded people for so long before you start looking retarded yourself. Righ?

Since when did mental retardation correlate to concrete thinking and who are you trying to imply is mentally retarded.  Nothing about the above sounds very civil to me.