An Experiment in Xian Perception

[Sweetdeath]

I know I'm coming very late to this discussion, but the reasons I've heard all boil down to "because God says so".  I knew a woman once who said that she personally couldn't see anything wrong with homosexuality, or why anyone would find it upsetting for any reason, but since her god was against it (according to the bible) she had to be too.  It didn't matter than she didn't understand her god's reasons for being against it, it only mattered that he was against it and as his follower she had to accept that there was therefore some mysterious thing wrong with it and treat it accordingly.  That's all there was to it.

Yup and that's one of the single most infuriating aspects of religious faith, blind and unquestioning obedience whether you understand it or not.  This is not a good thing yet Xians will proudly claim it as a demonstration of the strength of their faith.  It's like being proud of being ignorant and irrational.

I guess you can spin anything if you want to.

Another reason why AD's "I'm happy for you" seems more condesending than anything, but I digress.
I don't choose my sexuality, nor whom I fall in love with. I also regret nothing.

[Sandra Craft]

I don't choose my sexuality, nor whom I fall in love with. I also regret nothing.

Ah, but you do choose if you act on it and that's the point that all hard-line biblicalists agree is a sin (some also say the mere feelings are a sin as well, while others are more generous and give us a pass on the feelings so long as we're celibate).

What's unfair, a real pisser in fact, is that while our sexual lives don't affect the fundies religious beliefs, the fundies religious beliefs could affect our sexual lives if the Republicans make a successful power grab.  And that's what makes the conservative Xtian perspective so damn scary, at least for me.

[Davin]

I have read it and jesus never says hate the gays, but okay.

I don't recall where he ever said it was OK either, I don't think he ever mentioned homosexuality at all.  As much as I'd like to claim that as a point for our side, Jesus (or his ghost writer, or whoever) didn't have any trouble speaking up and correcting the rules of the OT he thought were wrong -- the ones about divorce, for instance.  I think it more reasonable to guess that he didn't say anything about homosexuality because he had no problem with the OT view of it.

The OT only mentions dudes lying with eachother, lesbians are not mentioned at all. I'm left to assume that lesbians are OK according to the bible... a bit sexist, but it is the bible.

[Ali]

Ah, but you do choose if you act on it and that's the point that all hard-line biblicalists agree is a sin (some also say the mere feelings are a sin as well, while others are more generous and give us a pass on the feelings so long as we're celibate).

What's unfair, a real pisser in fact, is that while our sexual lives don't affect the fundies religious beliefs, the fundies religious beliefs could affect our sexual lives if the Republicans make a successful power grab.  And that's what makes the conservative Xtian perspective so damn scary, at least for me.

I love how Christians throw that out (it's only a sin to act on it) like that's some great concession or mercy on their part.  "Hey, as long as you're cool with a life that is devoid of intimacy, companionship, love, family, all of the very best parts of being human, you're cool by us!  Aren't we tolerant?"  *Retch*

[Sandra Craft]

I love how Christians throw that out (it's only a sin to act on it) like that's some great concession or mercy on their part.  "Hey, as long as you're cool with a life that is devoid of intimacy, companionship, love, family, all of the very best parts of being human, you're cool by us!  Aren't we tolerant?"  *Retch*

Yeah, and I have seen the emotional damage this has caused among devout Xtian gays, one of my aunts among them, who have tried to tow this line.

[Sweetdeath]

I love how Christians throw that out (it's only a sin to act on it) like that's some great concession or mercy on their part.  "Hey, as long as you're cool with a life that is devoid of intimacy, companionship, love, family, all of the very best parts of being human, you're cool by us!  Aren't we tolerant?"  *Retch*

Yeah, and I have seen the emotional damage this has caused among devout Xtian gays, one of my aunts among them, who have tried to tow this line.

That's really sad. I'm sorry your aunt has to go through ANY emotional suffering about her sexuality.

But christians never ever stop to care whom threy hurt. Look at the assholes who protest military funerals. I mean WHAT THE FUCK?

[Tank]

I love how Christians throw that out (it's only a sin to act on it) like that's some great concession or mercy on their part.  "Hey, as long as you're cool with a life that is devoid of intimacy, companionship, love, family, all of the very best parts of being human, you're cool by us!  Aren't we tolerant?"  *Retch*

Yeah, and I have seen the emotional damage this has caused among devout Xtian gays, one of my aunts among them, who have tried to tow this line.

That's really sad. I'm sorry your aunt has to go through ANY emotional suffering about her sexuality.

But christians never ever stop to care whom threy hurt. Look at the assholes who protest military funerals. I mean WHAT THE FUCK?

Christian population approx 2,000,000,000
Christians who picket funerals 60 ('ish)

60/2,000,000,000*100 = 0.000,003%

The Phelps clan get a lot of publicity but they are about as typical of Christians as I am 

My mum was a Christian and she would not have hurt a fly (figurativly speaking). Can you imagine any of the Christian members here picking on somebody because of their sexual preferences? Yes, there are theists of all types Christian, Islamic and Jewish who's view of homosexuals is informed and driven by their religion. But there are many who have got past the outdated prejudice of days gone by. I realise this is a subject close to your heart as we have seen recently, but damning all for the sins of some simply isn't fair IMO.

[Traveler]

The OT only mentions dudes lying with eachother, lesbians are not mentioned at all. I'm left to assume that lesbians are OK according to the bible... a bit sexist, but it is the bible.

I was just going to ask about this, because that's my recollection as well. And to expand on that, many people seem to say that their personal objections about homosexuality have to do with anal sex. Never mind the straight folks who do it. Never mind the gay men who choose oral instead. Let's just broad brush everyone instead. Talk about leaping to contusions.

Personally, I think anything between consenting adults is no one else's business. Why christians (particularly conservative ones) can't get this through their thick skulls is beyond me.

[Sweetdeath]

Maybe they are jealous of the non christians and their awesome sex lifes? ^__~

[AnimatedDirt]

Another reason why AD's "I'm happy for you" seems more condesending than anything, but I digress.

I cannot dictate how genuine you feel my words are to you.

I don't choose my sexuality, nor whom I fall in love with. I also regret nothing.

I agree.  The fairytale book is clear.  If you break one letter of the law, you are a sinner.  Therefore whether one is gay or not gay, neither is more sinful than the other.  I hope that doesn't offend you.  It's not meant to.  It brings us together onto common ground.  Neither one of us is better or worse than the other.

[Ali]

My mum was a Christian and she would not have hurt a fly (figurativly speaking). Can you imagine any of the Christian members here picking on somebody because of their sexual preferences? Yes, there are theists of all types Christian, Islamic and Jewish who's view of homosexuals is informed and driven by their religion. But there are many who have got past the outdated prejudice of days gone by. I realise this is a subject close to your heart as we have seen recently, but damning all for the sins of some simply isn't fair IMO.

That's true too, Tank.  And I have to admit, particularly when it comes to the topic of gay marriage (that's a hot button topic for me -it just seems SO unfair and inhumane) I tend to picture "Christians" as this sort of swirling faceless mass that is intent on perpetrating this sort of bigotry and unequality on their fellow citizens.  But in my real life,  I actually really like the majority of the Christians I know, even the ones that I have some serious ideological disagreements with.  I wonder if that is how Christians see homosexuals too.  My parents are evangelicals, and opposed to gay marriage (cause Godsaidso) and yet they have several gay friends.  I've never been able to figure out how they reconcile the two, but I guess it's probably the same sort of thing.  We're fine with people on an individual basis, but we don't like the "idea" of their group.

[AnimatedDirt]

I love how Christians throw that out (it's only a sin to act on it) like that's some great concession or mercy on their part.  "Hey, as long as you're cool with a life that is devoid of intimacy, companionship, love, family, all of the very best parts of being human, you're cool by us!  Aren't we tolerant?"  *Retch*

You're right.  It's not much of a concession on the part of the Christian that condemns the homosexual because he/she is homosexual.  We (Christians) should not condemn 'you' for being homosexual.  Even thinking about a sin...is sin already.

"You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.'  But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I personally have acted on this probably more times than the average person has acted on sex physically.  Who's the "bigger" sinner?

[OldGit]

 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Matthew vii 1

[Ali]

Even thinking about a sin...is sin already.

I've always wondered about this.  Can Christians and other's who believe this actually control their thoughts so that they no longer think about taboo topics?  Maybe I just have some sort of crazy unruly Tourette's style brain, but I have all sorts of random thoughts popping in and out all of the time.  Some of them "sinful" if you consider thinking about sex and whatnot "sinful".  Sure, I can push thoughts aside once they're in there, but I can't seem to pre-emptively stop them from happening.  Can you?  And if not, why would something that is impossible to stop be a sin in the first place?

[AnimatedDirt]

I've always wondered about this.  Can Christians and other's who believe this actually control their thoughts so that they no longer think about taboo topics?  Maybe I just have some sort of crazy unruly Tourette's style brain, but I have all sorts of random thoughts popping in and out all of the time.  Some of them "sinful" if you consider thinking about sex and whatnot "sinful".  Sure, I can push thoughts aside once they're in there, but I can't seem to pre-emptively stop them from happening.  Can you?  And if not, why would something that is impossible to stop be a sin in the first place?

I don't think it's necessarily ALL our thoughts that pop in and out of our minds, as this is obvious to us and therefore more so to the fairytale God, but those that we ponder over and over, think on, imagine, visualize...

The NIV Commentary gives this as an interpretation on that text: "looks at a woman lustfully. Not a passing glance but a willful, calculated stare that arouses sexual desire. According to Jesus this is a form of adultery even if it is only "in his heart."