Becoming a more involved atheist

[Firebird]

Hi everyone,

I've poking around the internet for a place to explore this atheist side of me, and liked your mission statement. So hello!
I live in Massachusetts and have been agnostic as long as I can remember. I was raised Jewish, but my whole family is secular, even my grandparents, so it's always been more about the culture than the religion. When my wife and I renewed our wedding vows (we had to get married quickly, long story) , we chose an ethical humanist celebrant to oversee the ceremony, as this was the closest representation of our views on religion and morality. It was also our first exposure to the ethical humanist movement.
Most of my life, I just thought of myself as agnostic and apathetic to the whole idea of organized religion. But I've been very bothered by the direction the country has taken in the past 10 years, and I feel a need to push back and show that some of us do feel uncomfortable with the constant vilification of secularism. I don't like the constant mixing of religion in politics, the expectation that politicians must wear their religion on their sleeve, how said religion must be Christian-based, and how that can lead to discrimination against people for not sharing those beliefs. Etc. So I find myself looking for a community that shares these ideals.
One thing I do question, and would like to posit to all of you, is the term "atheist". Much of what I've read says that agnostics doubt the presence of a higher being but don't know, but atheists don't believe in one at all. Based on that definition, I've always considered myself more of an agnostic, but I find myself leaning more into the atheist camp of. I wonder if this definition is really accurate, however, and would like to know how you all view the idea of atheism. If you've already discussed this elsewhere, forgive me, as I've only started poking around this forum today
Look forward to fun and interesting discussions with all of you.

[Cerulean]

Hi Firebird! Great minds think alike - I just joined today as well.

I, too, considered myself an agnostic from as young an age as I can remember. Even as a kid it never made sense to me. In my experience I think I was afraid to admit to myself I didn't believe. Even though I did not grow up in a religious household, God has a way of seeping into the daily American routine, so I think I was a little brainwashed to believe there was a God.

When I finally accepted the fact that I truly, truly think religion is absolute nonsense for a thousand reasons, I knew I could finally identify myself as an atheist. I mean, not out loud of course. Just to myself. Shh.

It was actually kind of liberating - even if just to myself.

[Recusant]

Hello and welcome to HAF, Firebird. Many atheists these days prefer to identify themselves as people who are "lacking a belief in a god or gods" rather than holding an overt belief that there are no gods. As you might imagine, since this is not precisely the definition of the word "atheist" you will find in many dictionaries, discussion (sometimes heated) can arise on the topic.  Regarding agnosticism, that relates to holding a position on knowledge rather than on belief. So there are atheistic agnostics and theistic agnostics. An attempt was made by Richard Dawkins to create a more nuanced approach which acknowledges the fact that the basic labels are inadequate; this is discussed in a thread here. As mentioned below, you will have to wait until you've made ten posts here at HAF before you can dive into topics such as this.

Notes for new members from Tank.

The Rules.

Users who comply with forum rules will graduate to full membership after 10 posts. Till that time your ability to post is limited to the "Getting to Know You" section of the forum. It is our hope that this small restriction improves the overall atmosphere of HAF.

Some threads you might find interesting.
Where did you get your username from?
10 Things About Yourself
Tell us A Bit About Where You're From
Photography
Non-religious pet peeves
Pets...what do you have?
How to tell your family you are an atheist.*

*You will need 10 posts before you can add a post to this thread, but you can read it at any time.

In addition, you may find the following of interest: "Rules for Conducting a Discussion" by Dr. Mortimer J. Adler.

I hope you enjoy your time reading and posting here!

[Tank]

Hi Firebird

Welcom to HAF 

Regards
Chris

[xSilverPhinx]

Welcome!

Recusant said basically everything I wanted to say on how I interpret the distinction between 'agnostic' and 'atheist', and that it isn't incompatible to be both, for neither atheists or theists.

[Traveler]

Hello and welcome!!! 

I've been very bothered by the direction the country has taken in the past 10 years, and I feel a need to push back and show that some of us do feel uncomfortable with the constant vilification of secularism. I don't like the constant mixing of religion in politics, the expectation that politicians must wear their religion on their sleeve, how said religion must be Christian-based, and how that can lead to discrimination against people for not sharing those beliefs.

Ditto here. I had taken a break from the boards for a year or two and came back because of these concerns. I'm an artist, and have mostly created things that I've found beautiful. I just awoke this morning with several ideas on challenging these very issues. Scary stuff, to put those thoughts out there in this climate, but we'll see what comes out of it.

[Xiilent]

I was raised "christian" (even though my parents NEVER took me to church, they just told me that they are christian so i assumed the role as christian) but as I began to get out of that mentality, I doubted that there was any god altogether, instead of it just not being the christian god. I figured that if the christian god isn't real, than none is. I still don't deny that there is a possibility that there is a "god" because it is unfalsifiable, but I would still bet my entire life salary at the end of my days that there is no god.

[Liar For Jesus]

Im kind of at the same place you are ...that is,  how can an Atheist absolutely know with all certainty that the absolute declaration that 'There is no God (creator)'   be true ?   Because our finite minds have limited knowledge,  it would seem that we cant reach that point conclusively .   

[Traveler]

Im kind of at the same place you are ...that is,  how can an Atheist absolutely know with all certainty that the absolute declaration that 'There is no God (creator)'   be true ?   Because our finite minds have limited knowledge,  it would seem that we cant reach that point conclusively .   

That's the definition of an agnostic atheist. The word atheist has to do with belief. I believe there is no god. Or, I don't believe in god. The word agnostic has to do with knowledge. I can't know whether god exists. So you can actually be an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist, technically. If you don't have a god belief then you are an atheist, whether we can know the truth or not. If you claim knowledge that god doesn't exist, then you're a strong atheist. If you don't claim that knowledge, but only the belief, then you're a weak or agnostic atheist.

The other thing to think about with respect to knowledge is, at what point is our information so strong that it might as well be the truth. Some philosophers will tell you that nothing is actually real. I can wrap my mind around the concept, but its so unlikely that for all intents and purposes I consider reality to be real. Ditto, for me, with the Abrahamic gods. I consider it so incredibly unlikely, that I consider it, for all practical purposes, impossible that he exists, so I am a strong atheist with respect to those concepts. Other gods or concepts that people might consider a greater being or higher power or whatever? I give them a slightly larger possiblity, so with respect to those I consider myself an agnostic atheist.

[Liar For Jesus]

Im kind of at the same place you are ...that is,  how can an Atheist absolutely know with all certainty that the absolute declaration that 'There is no God (creator)'   be true ?   Because our finite minds have limited knowledge,  it would seem that we cant reach that point conclusively .   

That's the definition of an agnostic atheist. The word atheist has to do with belief. I believe there is no god. Or, I don't believe in god. The word agnostic has to do with knowledge. I can't know whether god exists. So you can actually be an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist, technically. If you don't have a god belief then you are an atheist, whether we can know the truth or not. If you claim knowledge that god doesn't exist, then you're a strong atheist. If you don't claim that knowledge, but only the belief, then you're a weak or agnostic atheist.

The other thing to think about with respect to knowledge is, at what point is our information so strong that it might as well be the truth. Some philosophers will tell you that nothing is actually real. I can wrap my mind around the concept, but its so unlikely that for all intents and purposes I consider reality to be real. Ditto, for me, with the Abrahamic gods. I consider it so incredibly unlikely, that I consider it, for all practical purposes, impossible that he exists, so I am a strong atheist with respect to those concepts. Other gods or concepts that people might consider a greater being or higher power or whatever? I give them a slightly larger possiblity, so with respect to those I consider myself an agnostic atheist.

If atheism is about belief (in no God existing)  ,  then doesnt that position automatically default toward some sort of an affirmative belief for the Cause of the Universe and for the cause of all this scientifcally confirmed complexity we see in the many things around us ... since we ARE really here and there really ARE highly organized complex things we commonly detect and refer to as design and engineering ?

[Tank]

Im kind of at the same place you are ...that is,  how can an Atheist absolutely know with all certainty that the absolute declaration that 'There is no God (creator)'   be true ?   Because our finite minds have limited knowledge,  it would seem that we cant reach that point conclusively .   

That's the definition of an agnostic atheist. The word atheist has to do with belief. I believe there is no god. Or, I don't believe in god. The word agnostic has to do with knowledge. I can't know whether god exists. So you can actually be an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist, technically. If you don't have a god belief then you are an atheist, whether we can know the truth or not. If you claim knowledge that god doesn't exist, then you're a strong atheist. If you don't claim that knowledge, but only the belief, then you're a weak or agnostic atheist.

The other thing to think about with respect to knowledge is, at what point is our information so strong that it might as well be the truth. Some philosophers will tell you that nothing is actually real. I can wrap my mind around the concept, but its so unlikely that for all intents and purposes I consider reality to be real. Ditto, for me, with the Abrahamic gods. I consider it so incredibly unlikely, that I consider it, for all practical purposes, impossible that he exists, so I am a strong atheist with respect to those concepts. Other gods or concepts that people might consider a greater being or higher power or whatever? I give them a slightly larger possiblity, so with respect to those I consider myself an agnostic atheist.

If atheism is about belief (in no God existing)  ,  then doesnt that position automatically default toward some sort of an affirmative belief for the Cause of the Universe and for the cause of all this scientifcally confirmed complexity we see in the many things around us ... since we ARE really here and there really ARE highly organized complex things we commonly detect and refer to as design and engineering ?

Strike 2

[Traveler]

If atheism is about belief (in no God existing)  ,  then doesnt that position automatically default toward some sort of an affirmative belief for the Cause of the Universe and for the cause of all this scientifcally confirmed complexity we see in the many things around us ... since we ARE really here and there really ARE highly organized complex things we commonly detect and refer to as design and engineering ?

No, of course not. All atheism is the lack of a god belief. It doesn't say anything else about anything else.

Speaking for myself, I have no clue how everything began. And I think that at this stage of our knowledge as a species, we're highly unlikely to know during my lifetime. There are lots of theories bouncing around, and people are exploring new ideas every day. But to grasp onto an idea and spout it as the truth is, in my not-so-humble opinion, absurdly arrogant. We can't know. Period. End of sentence. Anyone who claims absolute knowledge of how the universe began is either deluded or lying.

[Liar For Jesus]

If atheism is about belief (in no God existing)  ,  then doesnt that position automatically default toward some sort of an affirmative belief for the Cause of the Universe and for the cause of all this scientifcally confirmed complexity we see in the many things around us ... since we ARE really here and there really ARE highly organized complex things we commonly detect and refer to as design and engineering ?

No, of course not. All atheism is the lack of a god belief. It doesn't say anything else about anything else.

Speaking for myself, I have no clue how everything began. And I think that at this stage of our knowledge as a species, we're highly unlikely to know during my lifetime. There are lots of theories bouncing around, and people are exploring new ideas every day. But to grasp onto an idea and spout it as the truth is, in my not-so-humble opinion, absurdly arrogant. We can't know. Period. End of sentence. Anyone who claims absolute knowledge of how the universe began is either deluded or lying.

I understand Humanism is atheistic  and according to the Free Inquiry  (the Humanist offical magazine),  naturalism and materialism are the components which are expressed as the Cause ;  if not all Atheists hold to Humanism,  then what other Causations do they see as possibilities ?    I guess im asking can someone be an Atheist yet take a strong affirmative position for how the Cosmos DID originate ?   Lastly,  is there a logical deduction that can be made for an atheistic worldview based on the current science that we have ,or, is that not possible because science is always refining itself  as time goes on ?  Thanks.

[Ateo]

You got some good posts in reply Firebird. I'm curious, what's your response.

[Liar For Jesus]

Im kind of at the same place you are ...that is,  how can an Atheist absolutely know with all certainty that the absolute declaration that 'There is no God (creator)'   be true ?   Because our finite minds have limited knowledge,  it would seem that we cant reach that point conclusively .   

That's the definition of an agnostic atheist. The word atheist has to do with belief. I believe there is no god. Or, I don't believe in god. The word agnostic has to do with knowledge. I can't know whether god exists. So you can actually be an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist, technically. If you don't have a god belief then you are an atheist, whether we can know the truth or not. If you claim knowledge that god doesn't exist, then you're a strong atheist. If you don't claim that knowledge, but only the belief, then you're a weak or agnostic atheist.

The other thing to think about with respect to knowledge is, at what point is our information so strong that it might as well be the truth. Some philosophers will tell you that nothing is actually real. I can wrap my mind around the concept, but its so unlikely that for all intents and purposes I consider reality to be real. Ditto, for me, with the Abrahamic gods. I consider it so incredibly unlikely, that I consider it, for all practical purposes, impossible that he exists, so I am a strong atheist with respect to those concepts. Other gods or concepts that people might consider a greater being or higher power or whatever? I give them a slightly larger possiblity, so with respect to those I consider myself an agnostic atheist.

If atheism is about belief (in no God existing)  ,  then doesnt that position automatically default toward some sort of an affirmative belief for the Cause of the Universe and for the cause of all this scientifcally confirmed complexity we see in the many things around us ... since we ARE really here and there really ARE highly organized complex things we commonly detect and refer to as design and engineering ?

Strike 2

Starting to see the O.C.D. arise .... lol...