Re: What About Dignity?

[Egor]

I'm wondering at what point atheists stop being atheists and start believing in God again. What I mean is surely you have dignity, yes? So where does that dignity come from. If atheism is true, that is if there is no God, how can any human being have any dignity?

[MadBomr101]

First, you need to qualify what it is about being human that you find undignified and how that can only be rectified by belief in your god.

[Fi]

Define what you mean by "dignity."

Then please explain why we must have God to have dignity.

I find "dignity" to be a slippery word, since its definition is a bit nebulous and can mean different things to different people, (we can all agree it's a good thing to have, but nobody can agree exactly what it is) but to me it means self-worth and self-control. Someone with dignity respects themselves and others, and is in turn worthy of respect by others.

When I was a Christian, I was told I was a worthless, sinful creature, and that I deserved nothing but the fires of hell no matter how good I tried to be. That without Jesus, I was nothing. That did not give me dignity. That did not improve my self-worth.

Breaking away from Christianity improved my self-worth by leaps and bounds. I stopped hating myself. I gained respect for others, when I had previously looked upon non-Christians with smug pity. I became my own person. My decisions are now my own. Meaning, I have to take responsibility for my own crap. To preserve my dignity, to be worthy of respect, I have to right my wrongs myself instead of praying for forgiveness. There is no Jesus for me to fall back on. When I screw up, I have to fix it myself.

Is it harder? Yeah. But dignity is something you work for, not something handed down to you from on high. You have to maintain it.

[Egor]

First, you need to qualify what it is about being human that you find undignified and how that can only be rectified by belief in your god.

No doubt you'll suggest that I'm dodging the issue, but in fact, I was the one who asked you the question. I'm asking you how, as an atheist, you have dignity on what do you base it. Apparently, I have to guess at what you think by the question you ask. Apparently, you believe that human beings have inherent dignity, just because. Fine, but what is that dignity based on.

I think dignity is a sense of worth and high placement. Do you, as an atheist believe humans have that just for being human?

Define what you mean by "dignity."

A sense of personal worth and high standing.

Then please explain why we must have God to have dignity.

Well, actually, I asked you to explain where the basis for dignity comes from as an atheist.

I find "dignity" to be a slippery word, since its definition is a bit nebulous and can mean different things to different people, (we can all agree it's a good thing to have, but nobody can agree exactly what it is) but to me it means self-worth and self-control. Someone with dignity respects themselves and others, and is in turn worthy of respect by others.

When I was a Christian, I was told I was a worthless, sinful creature, and that I deserved nothing but the fires of hell no matter how good I tried to be. That without Jesus, I was nothing. That did not give me dignity. That did not improve my self-worth.

Breaking away from Christianity improved my self-worth by leaps and bounds. I stopped hating myself. I gained respect for others, when I had previously looked upon non-Christians with smug pity. I became my own person. My decisions are now my own. Meaning, I have to take responsibility for my own crap. To preserve my dignity, to be worthy of respect, I have to right my wrongs myself instead of praying for forgiveness. There is no Jesus for me to fall back on. When I screw up, I have to fix it myself.

I appreciate the lecture as to why you don't want to be a Christian, but how does throwing off a standard like Jesus Christ make you feel better about yourself. Isn't that a bit like lowering the high jump bar until you can clear it and then feeling good about yourself because you finally cleared the high jump bar? Isn't that a bit like awarding yourself a medal?

I derive my dignity from being a Son of God. Not that I deserve it, but that my worth and high placement was given to me by someone greater than any other possible being. But how then does an atheist derive dignity? Just by saying, "I have dignity."?

[Tank]

First, you need to qualify what it is about being human that you find undignified and how that can only be rectified by belief in your god.

Exactly. What is undignified, in your opinion? Have you seen/experienced/done that behaviour yourself. Have you witnessed this behaviour only in atheists?

You'll need to set the parameters of your question a little more extensivly and precisely before it is meaningful, otherwise the thread could well degenerate into a semantic argument that would have Whittgenstein spinning in his grave.

EDIT

dig·ni·ty
   [dig-ni-tee]
noun, plural -ties.
1.
bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation.
2.
nobility or elevation of character; worthiness: dignity of sentiments.
3.
elevated rank, office, station, etc.
4.
relative standing; rank.
5.
a sign or token of respect: an impertinent question unworthy of the dignity of an answer.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dignity

None of the above requires supernatural intervention. They are all pretty much examples of what the majority of western society would consider good behaviour. So God is not required to be 'dignified' in any sense. All of the above are simple behaviours of acknowledgement of acceptable behaviours by one's peer group.

[Egor]

First, you need to qualify what it is about being human that you find undignified and how that can only be rectified by belief in your god.

Exactly. What is undignified, in your opinion? Have you seen/experienced/done that behaviour yourself. Have you witnessed this behaviour only in atheists?

You'll need to set the parameters of your question a little more extensivly and precisely before it is meaningful, otherwise the thread could well degenerate into a semantic argument that would have Whittgenstein spinning in his grave.

Fine. Where does an atheist deriver his or her sense of worth and high placement? That's all there is to the question. It's perfectly fine to say you don't know.

Edit to you Edit:

So, you're saying you derive your sense of dignity from what your peers say about you?

[Tank]

First, you need to qualify what it is about being human that you find undignified and how that can only be rectified by belief in your god.

Exactly. What is undignified, in your opinion? Have you seen/experienced/done that behaviour yourself. Have you witnessed this behaviour only in atheists?

You'll need to set the parameters of your question a little more extensivly and precisely before it is meaningful, otherwise the thread could well degenerate into a semantic argument that would have Whittgenstein spinning in his grave.

Fine. Where does an atheist deriver his or her sense of worth and high placement? That's all there is to the question. It's perfectly fine to say you don't know.

Edited my previous post while you were posting this. You have created a false linkage between the characteristic of dignity and a person's world view.

If one takes what you wrote

"Where does an atheist derive his or her sense of worth and high placement?"

And alters it thus:-

"Where does a  person derive his or her sense of worth and high placement?

The essential meaning remains the same and is not making an entirely erroneous statement linking a general human characteristic to a specific world view. I derive my sence of self-worth through a number of things including, but not limited to, being an exemplary owner to my dogs, helping to keep this place running, getting a 1st class honours degree, writing up my decades of business experience, taking a photo that other people could not, taking a picture that others like.

But all of the above is simply rooted in the human sense of self and is an extension of our social evolution as a social species. Humans have a need to belong because loners don't reproduce. Only people who function in a social environment get to reproduce (with the exception of rapists but that's aberrant behaviour). Humans have lots of behaviours that equate to primate grooming that go beyond physical contact, 'massaging their/there ego' is a case in point. Dignity is concept that relates a person's behaviour to their expectations and their social group's expectations. When there two expectations coincide then a behaviour would be considered acceptable and if that behavior relates to social status/progress/ritual it could be said to be dignified.

[Crow]

To have pride in oneself and a sense of self respect that is worthy of respect from others for me has absolutely nothing to do with thinking I am superior to any other part of nature or is given by some super-natural force, in fact I do not think myself, humanity, or any species is superior to any other. Therefore I do not believe in caste systems, that men are better than women, that heteros are better than homos, or that people born with disabilities are any less competent than those that are considered normal.

The dignity that anyone perceives is a view of the self held in high regard, even your own view about having dignity from god is just your opinion held with high worth. The persona you are creating so far leads me to think that you believe your dignity and self worth comes from god, that anyone else with a different point of view or has a different background has no dignity or is lesser than yourself. Do I think your sense of dignity is worthy of respect? not so far, you have been unable to represent yourself in a dignified manner that is worthy of my respect, if you are an example of the christian form of dignity handed down by your god and re-enforced by the other god then you can keep it and cherish it whilst I look at it in disgust. To become a person of dignity you need to represent yourself in a way that is worthy of the title. You earn it.

[Tank]

{snip}

So, you're saying you derive your sense of dignity from what your peers say about you?

If you are referring to self-worth then being acknowledged by ones peers may reinforce one's feelings. My hobby is photography and in particular macro (close up) photography of plants and insects. I take my photos for my satisfaction. I have tens of thousands of images and if I never showed anybody any of them I would still take more and strive to improve my techniques and the variety of the subjects I photography. In this case I increase my self-worth by doing what I do better than I did before. If I show my pictures to others and they like them well that's nice too.

However as social creatures humans do react to others in their social group. For example the 3-year-old boy in a play group who finds out that waving his 'weener' about make some other kids laugh is soon told that his behaviour while amusing to some is far from socially acceptable and will adjust their behaviour accordingly. This is how humans learn, through positive or negative reinforcement either internally (feels good/bad) or externally (praise/punishment).

An indicator that 'dignity' is culturally derived and not an absolute is that different culture have different ideas of dignified behaviour. In a country in Africa the king recently wanted a wife. He made this known and hundreds of girls ages 14 and upwards turned up and danced topless for him. Hardly the sort of thing many Western people would consider 'dignified' I'm sure some would go as far as saying degrading. Another example would be the arabic taboo of showing the soles of one's feet to others. I used to think that arabs were really formal in pictures as they would sit dead straight in a picture, nobody ever crossed their legs. Well they sit with their feet on the floor because to show the soles of their foot/shoe to the person sitting next to you would be a grievous insult.

[Recusant]

I'm wondering at what point atheists stop being atheists and start believing in God again.

To get an accurate answer to that question you'd be better off asking it of "ex-atheists." Though such people do exist, in my experience many of the most public ex-atheists seem to proclaim themselves as such to try to give their efforts at proselytizing a little extra punch. Often this sort makes it sound as if they were merely ignorant before becoming an evangelical Christian: "I was an atheist until I read the Bible" is one trope that I've come across more than once. When I hear that line, some elements of doubt regarding the honesty of the proselytizer begin to creep in. This is because when one listens to the various stories of how people began to doubt their faith, one often hears that the first cracks in the wall of unquestioning belief occurred as a result of a thorough reading of the Bible. I cannot give the exact number of times I've read that in introduction posts here, but it's in the upper double digits. Many Christian evangelists are aware of this, and I think it's likely that at least some of them try to counter it by saying the exact opposite. The W. L. Craig parrot who calls himself "ShockofGod" is an example of somebody who describes himself as an "ex-atheist" and uses "when I read the Bible, I was convinced" and whose honesty I have doubts about.

Still, though I think that there are a fair number of faux "ex-atheists" out there, there are also some who honestly were atheists and have honestly come to Jesus. These are the people you should search out to learn the stories of how atheists stop being atheists. Asking atheists such a question seems futile. My honest answer is that I don't know, still being firmly infidel myself. I have read the Bible a number of times, and have studied certain passages in depth, and doing so has been anything but convincing.

What I mean is surely you have dignity, yes?

I actually don't consider myself to be especially dignified. Merely avoiding making too much of an ass of myself is probably the best I can hope for, and I honestly don't care to strive for dignity as such.

So where does that dignity come from.

Tank kindly supplied the standard definitions of the word. So for definitions 2 though 5, it appears that dignity comes from the esteem of other people. For definition 1, self respect is the obvious prime component, with consideration of the situation in which one finds oneself and attendant moderation of one's behavior being secondary.

If atheism is true, that is if there is no God, how can any human being have any dignity?

It has been pointed out that it doesn't seem necessary for a supernatural entity to be involved for dignity to exist; this is a position with which I agree.

It's good to see you here again, Edward.

[Asmodean]

I think dignity is a sense of worth and high placement. Do you, as an atheist believe humans have that just for being human?

Mine is, in that case, based on my acomplishments, my abilities, my intellect and my status among peers. AND it walks a very fine line with arrogance.

Well, actually, I asked you to explain where the basis for dignity comes from as an atheist.

In knowing one's own worth, I would say.

I appreciate the lecture as to why you don't want to be a Christian, but how does throwing off a standard like Jesus Christ make you feel better about yourself.

Because Christ is not all that impressive..? Not to mention 2000 years since dead, if he ever lived at all..? There are people I look up to - different people for different things. Some are smarter than I, others are wiser, and some are... Bigger men than I am, for the lack of a better expression.

All of them are people I know. Now why don't you tell me, Ed, why you think I should look up to a probably fictional dead guy who lived in a highly unpleasant and ignorant time for anything at all?

Isn't that a bit like lowering the high jump bar until you can clear it and then feeling good about yourself because you finally cleared the high jump bar? Isn't that a bit like awarding yourself a medal?

What's wrong with taking pride in achieving realistic goals? First, you make the jump you CAN make. Then you can concentrate on making that next jump and so on.

Although by my standards, a decently high bar when it comes to being an overall decent human being is not at all where Jesus set it.

I derive my dignity from being a Son of God. Not that I deserve it, but that my worth and high placement was given to me by someone greater than any other possible being. But how then does an atheist derive dignity? Just by saying, "I have dignity."?

No. I act dignified by being dignified. I've never used the expression "I have dignity" in other than implicational manner for the purposes of this thread.

I know what I am worth to myself, those I work for and those around me. I also know that given any number of tasks, I'll do them well - or, as well as I possibly can. Doing as much as you can is, after all, a good source of pride in personal achievement.

I am, however, slightly prone to attribute a higher price tag to myself than what should really be there, and that's where your definition of dignity slides into arrogance. And arrogance, by the way, is something theists tend to be REALLY good at, without even recognising it.

[The Magic Pudding]

Dignity?
Interesting thread, so that's how you get it.
Hmm, should I get me some?
Na, maybe when I get older so I have some to loose when I get really old.

[Egor]

To get an accurate answer to that question you'd be better off asking it of "ex-atheists." Though such people do exist, in my experience many of the most public ex-atheists seem to proclaim themselves as such to try to give their efforts at proselytizing a little extra punch. Often this sort makes it sound as if they were merely ignorant before becoming an evangelical Christian: "I was an atheist until I read the Bible" is one trope that I've come across more than once. When I hear that line, some elements of doubt regarding the honesty of the proselytizer begin to creep in. This is because when one listens to the various stories of how people began to doubt their faith, one often hears that the first cracks in the wall of unquestioning belief occurred as a result of a thorough reading of the Bible. I cannot give the exact number of times I've read that in introduction posts here, but it's in the upper double digits. Many Christian evangelists are aware of this, and I think it's likely that at least some of them try to counter it by saying the exact opposite. The W. L. Craig parrot who calls himself "ShockofGod" is an example of somebody who describes himself as an "ex-atheist" and uses "when I read the Bible, I was convinced" and whose honesty I have doubts about.

Well, my point here was to suggest that in order to believe in dignity one must ultimately believe in God. A point I hope to prove. But to digress, it is possible to read the teachings of Jesus Christ and have a conversion. I know I was taken by the fact that he had the audacity to claim He was the Truth implying he wasn't just "telling" the truth like other philosophers. That would have either made him mad, a liar, or God. His influence over the world, as well as the rest of his teachings, rule out being mad or a liar. But I digress.

I actually don't consider myself to be especially dignified. Merely avoiding making too much of an ass of myself is probably the best I can hope for, and I honestly don't care to strive for dignity as such.

But avoiding making too much of an ass of yourself is striving for dignity, is it not?

It has been pointed out that it doesn't seem necessary for a supernatural entity to be involved for dignity to exist; this is a position with which I agree.

You could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity. You could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people. Or you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God. So that's why I ask where an atheist derives their dignity. Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?

It's good to see you here again, Edward.

Thank you. It's good to be back. And let me say that I'm not answering posts in any particular order, and please don't think I'm ignoring any post. I'm just answering the one or ones that make me think of something first. Eventually, I'll probably respond to them all.

[Egor]

Because Christ is not all that impressive..? Not to mention 2000 years since dead, if he ever lived at all..? There are people I look up to - different people for different things. Some are smarter than I, others are wiser, and some are... Bigger men than I am, for the lack of a better expression.

All of them are people I know. Now why don't you tell me, Ed, why you think I should look up to a probably fictional dead guy who lived in a highly unpleasant and ignorant time for anything at all?

There is no way to combat historical ignorance. If you can't look at the last 2000 years and see the impact the life and teachings of Jesus Christ have had on the world, the monumental amount of writing from the first and second centuries about him (especially if you include all the gnostic writings), I can't make you see his reality. It is very likely something wonderful happened right around 30 AD, and what happened changed the world, and continues to change people's lives.

And now, are you actually telling me that the people in your life compare to Jesus Christ in your estimation? Well, that must be one hell of a clique. It is true that the only way to know Jesus today is through the Gospel records of his life. We can't know him through direct physical experience.

I'm curious, have you ever actually read one of the Gospels?

Although by my standards, a decently high bar when it comes to being an overall decent human being is not at all where Jesus set it.

So, you think Jesus was lacking in decency? Can you explain that?

I know what I am worth to myself, those I work for and those around me. I also know that given any number of tasks, I'll do them well - or, as well as I possibly can. Doing as much as you can is, after all, a good source of pride in personal achievement.

So dignity comes from being productive and competent.

I am, however, slightly prone to attribute a higher price tag to myself than what should really be there, and that's where your definition of dignity slides into arrogance. And arrogance, by the way, is something theists tend to be REALLY good at, without even recognising it.

I would agree that everyone values themselves, that's why dignity can't really come from one's own appraisal, otherwise the arrogant theists would be more dignified than the humble atheists. I think we would agree that would be a delusional dignity.

[MadBomr101]

So, you're saying you derive your sense of dignity from what your peers say about you?

We're saying that dignity comes from within based on how one feels about one's self and one's talents, achievements, character, etc...  Nowhere in there is a god necessary to claim one's dignity.  Wait, I'm wrong, one person DID make that claim:

I derive my dignity from being a Son of God. Not that I deserve it, but that my worth and high placement was given to me by someone greater than any other possible being. But how then does an atheist derive dignity? Just by saying, "I have dignity."?

What you're saying is that you can only feel good about yourself by convincing yourself that you have found favor in the eyes of, well, let's just state it as it is, an invisible magical man who lives in the sky.

So, let's review:

- Atheists find dignity based on what kind of person they are and what sort of talents and accomplishments define them as individuals.

- Xians find dignity through blind worship and obedience to a mythic figure...sort of like the Greeks worshipping Zeus, or the Vikings worshipping Odin, or the Egyptians worshipping Ra, or the ...

You get the idea.

But even if god were real don't you think you could still find something more prosaic to feel good about than just being yet another sycophantic pet to an all-powerful lord and master?  You're not just proud of it, you're arrogant about it.  Why is that?  Do you praise him louder and longer than other Xians?  Why do you feel he's impressed with you?  What about you compelled god to pause in his busy schedule of...whatever it is he does, to say to himself "Hmm, that Ed Gordon, he's a good bit of a-ok!"

Personally, I'm more impressed with your commitment to writing and love of dogs than in all of the Xian boilerplate I'm certain we're going to hear from you.