The Tree Of Knowledge

[Earthling]

The tree of knowledge had no magical or supernatural properties. It was simply a tree which Jehovah used as a representation of his right to decide for his creation what was right and what was wrong. A representation of his authority. His sovereignty. In deliberately taking of the fruit of that forbidden tree Adam was in effect saying "I will know for myself what is good and what is bad." It wasn't knowledge. It wasn't sex. It wasn't magic.

What is the knowledge? It wasn't just the simple knowledge of what was good and what was bad because God had already told them all of that. It wasn't knowledge in the sense of personal experience because God hadn't experienced that either, so in that way they couldn't have become "like him." It was that they judged for themselves what was good and what was bad. They rejected him. They were not listening to him.

In a footnote to Genesis 2:17, the Jerusalem Bible says this: "This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, Genesis 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God's sovereignty, a sin of pride."

[Crow]

Your point being?

[DeterminedJuliet]

I don't know why God would chose to make us rational/give us choice is the first place.

[Earthling]

Your point being?

That it certainly was uncontaminated by cheese.

[Earthling]

I don't know why God would chose to make us rational/give us choice is the first place.

Why wouldn't he? One of Jesus' purpose for coming and living here on earth as a man was to demonstrate that it could be done. A man could be perfect and without sin. Why couldn't we think for ourselves and not make the right decision?

[Velma]

I rather think you have the cart before the horse.  First you need to prove your underlying assumptions that this god exists and that the myth is true.

[Whitney]

Why wouldn't he? One of Jesus' purpose for coming and living here on earth as a man was to demonstrate that it could be done. A man could be perfect and without sin. 

So, when Jesus said that none shall get to the father except through me (sorry butchered verse I'm sure); with your interpretation of the fall and thinking in metaphors wouldn't that mean that no one who isn't perfect without sin could go to heaven?

Yet at the same time, Jesus acknowledged that no one is without sin (casting stones and such) so do you view that as contextual and a remark on the time or do you view is like other Christians as a comment on the human condition?

Btw, it's been a busy week but I think that your understanding of Christianity doesn't sound that far removed from what I believed in high school/early college...except that you may have more research into it than I did; the reason I left the faith wasn't necessarily internal to the Bible (I always accepted most of it as metaphor and a guide anyway) but rather the down to basics why do we think god is real to begin with question.

[Earthling]

I rather think you have the cart before the horse.  First you need to prove your underlying assumptions that this god exists and that the myth is true.

I'm not so sure about that. When I talk to skeptics of the Bible I tell them not to try and buy into the God myth, to just look at the Books as if they were a fictional account and measure the authority of them by their harmony and truthfulness. The real import thing is to get rid of whatever you were taught or preconceived notions. The pagan influence of modern day Christianity. The science block. For example, Genesis Chapter 1: The numbers in brackets correspond with the verse number in Genesis Chapter 1. [1] is Genesis 1:1 etc.

[1] The Hebrew verb consists of two different states. The perfect state indicates an action which is complete, whereas the imperfect state indicates a continuous or incomplete action.

At Genesis 1:1 the word bara, translated as created, is in the perfect state, which means that at this point the creation of the heavens and the Earth were completed. Later, as in verse 16 the Hebrew word asah, translated as made, is used, which is in the imperfect state, indicating continuous action. The heavens and Earth were created in verse 1 and an indeterminate time later they were being prepared for habitation, much the same as a bed is manufactured (complete) and made (continuous) afterwards.

[2] The planet was a water planet, waste and empty, meaning that there was no productive land. Though the sun and moon as part of the heavens were complete, at this point light had not penetrated to the surface of the Earth. Job 38:4, 9 refers to a "swaddling band" around the Earth in the early stages of creation. Likely there was a cosmic dust cloud of vapor and debris which prevented the light from the sun from being visible on the surface of the earth.

The Hebrew word ruach, translated as spirit, indicates any invisible active force. Wind, breath, or mental inclination, for example. The Holy Spirit is Jehovah God's active force. Invisible to man but producing results. Throughout scripture it is often referred to as God's hands or fingers in a metaphorical sense. (Psalm 8:3; 19:1)

[3] Here the Hebrew verb waiyomer (proceeded to say) is in the imperfect state indicating progressive action. This first chapter of Genesis has more than 40 cases of the imperfect state. The creative "days" were a gradual process of making Earth habitable.

The light was a diffused light which gradually grew in intensity. Some translations more clearly indicate the progressive action:

A Distinctive Translation of Genesis by J.W. Watts (1963): "Afterward God proceeded to say, 'Let there be light'; and gradually light came into existence."

Benjamin Wills Newton's translation (1888): "And God proceeded to say [future], Let Light become to be, and Light proceeded to become to be [future]."

The Hebrew word for light, ohr, is used. This distinguishes the light from the source of the light. Later, on the fourth "day" the Hebrew word maohr is used, signifying that the source of the light only becomes visible then through the swaddling band.

[4] Light and darkness is divided between the eastern and western hemispheres as the Earth rotates on its axis.

[5] Here the Hebrew word yohm translated day, indicates the daylight hours, but the term will be applied in the following verses to indicate various lengths of time. The word is used to describe any period of time from a few hours to thousands of years. (Zechariah 14:8 / Proverbs 25:13 / Psalm 90:4 / Isaiah 49:8 / Matthew 10:15)

The terms evening and morning are metaphoric. At this point there are no witnesses on Earth to a literal night and day, but there are witnesses in heaven. (Job 38:4, 7) The evening symbolizes the period of time in which the events unfolding were indiscernible to the angels in heaven. The morning symbolizes the period in which the angels could distinguish what had been accomplished. (Proverbs 4:18)

[6] The word expanse is translated from the Hebrew raqia, which means "spreading out." Since the root word from which raqia comes is raqa, which is sometimes used in a sense of "beating out" some confusion has been caused by the Greek Septuagint translation of raqia as stereoma, which means "firm and solid structure" concluding when the Latin Vulgate used the term firmamentum because, at that time it was thought that there was a metallic dome surrounding the earth with sluice holes from which rain fell.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: "But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O T." - Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314. For example, at Job 36:27-28 the water cycle is described without any reference to the Dark Ages understanding of sluice holes.

[7] In verse 6 and 7 part of the water that covers the Earth is lifted to the heavens to form a water canopy surrounding the planet. This canopy was used to flood the earth during the days of Noah. (2 Peter 3:5-6)

[11] The Biblical kind, from the Hebrew leminoh, Greek genos, and Latin genus, differs from the Evolutionist kind. The Biblical "kind" can be defined as divisions in which cross fertility can occur, a boundary between these kinds is drawn where fertilization ceases. Apple trees, for example, don't produce broccoli, squirrels don't produce horses.

In biology a kind applies to animals and plants which possess one or more distinctive characteristics, meaning the biological term kind may contain several varieties within a Biblical kind.

[14] The light in verse 14 is different from that in verse 3. In verse 3 the Hebrew word ohr is used, meaning the light from the source. Light in a general sense, whereas the light in verse 14 the Hebrew word maohr is used, signifying the source of the light is now visible. See [3]

The sun, moon and stars are set as a sign of the seasons, days and years. A most accurate timepiece. The use of the term "sign" is often mistaken as a reference to astrology, which is incorrect.

[16] The Hebrew waiyaas (proceeded to make), from asah, in verse 16 is different than bara (create) in verses 1, 21 and 27. Asah is the imperfect state indicating progressive action. The luminaries as part of the heavens had already been completed in verse 1, but now they were visible on Earth and prepared for their intended use. Asah can mean make, or appoint (Deuteronomy 15:1), establish (2 Samuel 7:11), form (Jeremiah 18:4), or prepare (Genesis 21:. Also see [1]

[20] The word soul, from the Hebrew nephesh, means "breather." The soul is in the blood, the life itself, of any breathing creature. At Genesis 9:3-4, for example, the Hebrew word nephesh can be translated as life or soul.

[21] Sea monsters, from the Hebrew tanninim, great reptiles. The Hebrew term remes means to creep or move about; an aimless movement. It covers a variety of creatures and distinguishes these animals from domestic or wild birds, beasts and fish.

[24] Cattle; domestic or tame animal (Hebrew behemah).

[25] There are two creation accounts. The first is a chronological account (Genesis 1:1-2:4) and the second is given according to topical relevance. (Genesis 2:5-4:26) They differ in order and are often wrongly thought to contradict one another.

[26] God refers to his son, Christ Jesus in his heavenly pre-human existence. (Genesis 11:7 / Proverbs 8:30 / John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16) Being made in the likeness, image or semblance of God reflects mankind's potential for being like God, possessing his qualities of wisdom, power, righteousness and love.

[27] Too often it is overlooked by selfish, dominating men that woman too were created in God's image, and thus deserving respect.

[31] God's creation is good. There is no sickness, disease or slow progression to death. The small area they reside in is a paradise reflective of the potential, and in fact the purpose of growing throughout the entire planet. It isn't God's purpose for us to live in sin on Earth and then move on to heaven.

The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn't say.

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)

Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)

Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)

Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)

Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31)

[Earthling]

So, when Jesus said that none shall get to the father except through me (sorry butchered verse I'm sure); with your interpretation of the fall and thinking in metaphors wouldn't that mean that no one who isn't perfect without sin could go to heaven?

The verse wasn't butchered, it was spot on. I'm not sure what you mean by "thinking in metaphors" though. My interpretation of the Bible doesn't allow for the nonsensical notion that when you die you either go to heaven or to hell. It allows for the Biblical idea that the earth was created for man and the meek shall inherit, not heaven, but rather, earth.

Yet at the same time, Jesus acknowledged that no one is without sin (casting stones and such) so do you view that as contextual and a remark on the time or do you view is like other Christians as a comment on the human condition?

Well, the verses in question where Jesus supposedly says let him without sin cast the first stone, are spurious. They appear only in later manuscripts. So it never happened but was added on later. It is accurate, though, according to the Bible. We were born in a condition of sin. Some people read a sort of supernatural misapplication into the word sin, but it simply means to miss the mark, of a person or god.

Btw, it's been a busy week but I think that your understanding of Christianity doesn't sound that far removed from what I believed in high school/early college...except that you may have more research into it than I did; the reason I left the faith wasn't necessarily internal to the Bible (I always accepted most of it as metaphor and a guide anyway) but rather the down to basics why do we think god is real to begin with question.

Interesting. I had an irreligious upbringing, did you?

[Tank]

The tree of knowledge had no magical or supernatural properties.
{snip}

Correct, as it never existed.

[Stevil]

Why wouldn't he? One of Jesus' purpose for coming and living here on earth as a man was to demonstrate that it could be done. A man could be perfect and without sin.

Are you sure you didn't just make that up?

Catholics believe in original sin. This makes it impossible for us to be perfect and without sin, hence Jesus demonstration is unattainable for us mortals. It seems like he was gloating that he is better than us, this seems like a cruel joke.

[OldGit]

Correct, as it never existed.

Right, Tank, but undeniably it was an important part of the biblical creation myth.  It's always puzzled me - why should "knowledge of good and evil" be forbidden?  The rest of the religion relies on our having precisely that knowledge.

Catholics believe in original sin

Which was, of course, the eating of the apple - whatever that is supposed to mean.

I have never been able to see what the story is getting at.  Clearly, the whole religion is based on it - but what, exactly?  ???

[Too Few Lions]

The tree of knowledge represents the world axis, it was a standard metaphor in mythology (eg Yggdrasil in Norse mythology). Hence Genesis describes it as being in the middle of the garden, just as the axis mundi was in the middle of the ancient model of the cosmos. You can read about it here if you want to know more about the concept;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi

[OldGit]

Interesting, TFL, thank you.  But I'm still no wiser as to what Adam and Eve did that was so wrong.

[Tank]

Interesting, TFL, thank you.  But I'm still no wiser as to what Adam and Eve did that was so wrong.

Disobeyed their father, the ultimate sin in an alpha male dominated triabalistic society.