Christianity - license to make stuff up.

[bandit4god]

Does Christianity promote a stance where by there are a few absolutes (e.g. Jesus, god, Mary, Moses etc. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, we are all sinners, god is perfect and all powerful, Good people go to heaven, Bad people go to hell, Through Jesus is the path to heaven) but then with regards to everything else Christians are free to interpret however they see fit? ...I don't understand how a person can truly believe in something and yet still feel at liberty to just make up the details. They are obviously not worried about getting it wrong and ending up in hell.

Reading Stevil's postings are a breath of fresh air, so structured and well-conceived!

There is a possibility that you're not considering:  that there are Absolutes that Christians agree to be orthodoxy, truths imbued with the power of redemption (if believed upon and lived out).  Certainly there are other truths upon which the weight of redemption doesn't rest.  Can a son "know" a father's core nature (e.g., he is generous, forgiving, slow to anger, terrifying when he is angry, etc.) and still have misconceptions about the details (e.g., what he considers a clean sock drawer)?

[Too Few Lions]

There is a possibility that you're not considering:  that there are Absolutes that Christians agree to be orthodoxy, truths imbued with the power of redemption (if believed upon and lived out).  Certainly there are other truths upon which the weight of redemption doesn't rest.  Can a son "know" a father's core nature (e.g., he is generous, forgiving, slow to anger, terrifying when he is angry, etc.) and still have misconceptions about the details (e.g., what he considers a clean sock drawer)?

hi b4g, what are these 'Absolutes' in your opinion? i suspect we may be able to find denominations of Christians who haven't subscribed to most things in the Bible at one point or other in history. Could you have a go at listing some of those 'Absolutes' here?

[DeterminedJuliet]

When I was a Christian, I was exposed to both Catholic and Baptist teaching (My family was Catholic and I was raised Catholic, but my friends were all Baptist and I'd go to Baptist "summer camps" most years).

In both churches the emphasis was on belief - all you really had to do was believe that Jesus was the son of God and that he died for our sins. That was it! So, as a christian, that was really my only concern for the longest time. The impression that I was always given was that following the rest of the bible and the rest of God's commandments was "nice" and a good thing to do, if you could, but it was never described as the difference between going to heaven and hell. Actually, most of the time when I went to church the focus was entirely on Jesus and not God at all, really, which is sort of strange, if you think about it.

I think that might explain some of the discrepancies, in Christianity there aren't a lot of real "deal-breakers" when it comes to belief. You just have to believe in Jesus and nearly everything else is negotiable. At least that was my view when I was Christian.

[Stevil]

For those that simply brush me off here and say I am going too far or am a bit crazy, I hope you can consider what I have said and allow yourself to challenge your current ideas of what religion and Christianity is.

Can you challenge yours?  Have you read the bible?  It's so contradictory that A can believe one thing and B the complete opposite and they can both cite biblical scripture that backs them up.  Who's cherry-picking in that case?  Whose religion is based on what the bible really says?

I like to challenge my thinking, but it is a difficult thing to truly achieve.
Maybe it is impossible to read the bible and have a precise view, because without interpretation there is contradiction, with itself and with scientific knowledge. Certainly the calls to put people to death for doing certain things would not be socially acceptable and are contradictory to the Thou shalt not kill commandment. It just seems to me that some people's stance is too convenient. Early creationists are at least backing their belief and challenging science rather than the other way around.

If god were truly real, if god truly was to punish people for all eternity for not following his/her moral guide then people would be driven to know god and obey rather than simply make stuff up.

You seem to be suggesting a form of Pascal's Wager for Xtians, which is odd to me because I've never known an atheist who treats his wager for us with anything but contempt and eyerolling.

Not really Pascal's wager, I am trying to imagine a case were god were truly real and the threat of hell were real, believers already believe this right?

[Too Few Lions]

In both churches the emphasis was on belief - all you really had to do was believe that Jesus was the son of God and that he died for our sins. That was it!
I think that might explain some of the discrepancies, in Christianity there aren't a lot of real "deal-breakers" when it comes to belief. You just have to believe in Jesus and nearly everything else is negotiable. At least that was my view when I was Christian.

But there have been different Christian views even on such a basic premise as that! There were once Christians who believed that Jesus wasn't the son of Yahweh, but of a totally different god altogether, and there were Christians who believed that Jesus wasn't Yahweh's actual son, but that the Jewish god just adopted by him for being so supergood and righteous. There have been Christians who believed that Jesus didn't ever die (because he wasn't remotely human to begin with) and Christians who believed that Jesus' death had nothing to do with our 'sins'. I'm really not sure what we can say for sure that all Christians have agreed on, I'm hoping maybe a few of the Christians on this forum can put forward a few suggestions.

[Stevil]

Does Christianity promote a stance where by there are a few absolutes (e.g. Jesus, god, Mary, Moses etc. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, we are all sinners, god is perfect and all powerful, Good people go to heaven, Bad people go to hell, Through Jesus is the path to heaven) but then with regards to everything else Christians are free to interpret however they see fit? ...I don't understand how a person can truly believe in something and yet still feel at liberty to just make up the details. They are obviously not worried about getting it wrong and ending up in hell.

Reading Stevil's postings are a breath of fresh air, so structured and well-conceived!

There is a possibility that you're not considering:  that there are Absolutes that Christians agree to be orthodoxy, truths imbued with the power of redemption (if believed upon and lived out).  Certainly there are other truths upon which the weight of redemption doesn't rest.  Can a son "know" a father's core nature (e.g., he is generous, forgiving, slow to anger, terrifying when he is angry, etc.) and still have misconceptions about the details (e.g., what he considers a clean sock drawer)?

Thanks for participating in this thread, we do need a theist so that we can keep it real.
It would be interesting to know what the orthodoxy is. Is it so small it can fit on one page, one paragraph?

[Tank]

Does Christianity promote a stance where by there are a few absolutes (e.g. Jesus, god, Mary, Moses etc. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, we are all sinners, god is perfect and all powerful, Good people go to heaven, Bad people go to hell, Through Jesus is the path to heaven) but then with regards to everything else Christians are free to interpret however they see fit? ...I don't understand how a person can truly believe in something and yet still feel at liberty to just make up the details. They are obviously not worried about getting it wrong and ending up in hell.

Reading Stevil's postings are a breath of fresh air, so structured and well-conceived!

There is a possibility that you're not considering:  that there are Absolutes that Christians agree to be orthodoxy, truths imbued with the power of redemption (if believed upon and lived out).  Certainly there are other truths upon which the weight of redemption doesn't rest.  Can a son "know" a father's core nature (e.g., he is generous, forgiving, slow to anger, terrifying when he is angry, etc.) and still have misconceptions about the details (e.g., what he considers a clean sock drawer)?

Thanks for participating in this thread, we do need a theist so that we can keep it real.
It would be interesting to know what the orthodoxy is. Is it so small it can fit on one page, one paragraph?

While I agree with Stevil's sentiments the highlighted bit just blew my irony meter to smithereens 

[bandit4god]

Thanks for participating in this thread, we do need a theist so that we can keep it real.
It would be interesting to know what the orthodoxy is. Is it so small it can fit on one page, one paragraph?

Appreciate the sentiment... this forum really has changed for the better!

Awhile back I wrote a creed that attempts to capture it, of which the below is a part.  Get out the steak knives! 

There is one and only one living and true God.  He created all things.  He has revealed Himself through His Creation, through history, through the written testimony of a few, and through the incarnation of Himself, Jesus Christ.  Man, a free creature made in God's own image, is the pinnacle of His creation.  By his free choice Man sinned against God, misaligning his nature from that of God and bringing evil into the world.  Any person can rejoin alignment with God through repentance of sin and faith in the atoning death and ressurection of Jesus Christ.  Those who have done so constitute The Church who will enjoy God forever in Heaven.

[OldGit]

OK, what happened to all the poor suckers who were born and died between Adam'n'Eve and the atonement by JC?  I ask that because it's a classic area for different groups making stuff up.

[Norfolk And Chance]

There is one and only one living and true God.

You say that as if it is fact. Please provide evidence to back up that claim. Is the true god allah?

He created all things.

Says whom? Did he create himself too?

He has revealed Himself through His Creation, through history, through the written testimony of a few, and through the incarnation of Himself, Jesus Christ.  Man, a free creature made in God's own image, is the pinnacle of His creation. 

This is all a fictional story.

By his free choice Man sinned against God, misaligning his nature from that of God and bringing evil into the world.  Any person can rejoin alignment with God through repentance of sin and faith in the atoning death and ressurection of Jesus Christ.  Those who have done so constitute The Church who will enjoy God forever in Heaven.

God must have decided what sin was then created it. Why? To trap man?

Tell you what, I'll give this heaven gig a miss - an eternity worshipping and fawning to the insane god of the bible, sounds like...hell.

[Too Few Lions]

Thanks for participating in this thread, we do need a theist so that we can keep it real.
It would be interesting to know what the orthodoxy is. Is it so small it can fit on one page, one paragraph?

I am but a humble atheist, but to try and keep it as real as I possibly can. I can see two 'Absolutes' that I think we can safely say all Christians have believed in;

a) there is a god, although that god may not necessarily be the god of the Old Testament or have created the universe.

b) Jesus is their saviour, although Christians have differed over whether he was fully human, fully divine, or a mixture of the two. They have also differed over his relationship to their god.

There are probably other things, i just can't think of them right now. Beyond that I think we can find Christians who have believed different things on pretty much everything.

[Too Few Lions]

Awhile back I wrote a creed that attempts to capture it, of which the below is a part.  Get out the steak knives!  

I have out my best silver cutlery, salt and pepper, and teapot too (I am a chimp after all!)

There is one and only one living and true God.  He created all things.  He has revealed Himself through His Creation

have you ever heard of the Gnostics? They were Christians who didn't believe that god had created the universe.

through history, through the written testimony of a few, and through the incarnation of Himself, Jesus Christ.  

Various early Christian sects, including the Gnostics, didn't believe that Jesus ever took on a fleshy incarnation, others like the Ebionites (called Adoptionists) believed that Jesus was wholly human and not even remotely divine, he was adopted by god as his son. Other Christians such as the Arians have seen Jesus and god as wholly separate entities, and not one and the same.

Man, a free creature made in God's own image, is the pinnacle of His creation.  

Again, the Gnostics didn't believe that god had created man either.

By his free choice Man sinned against God, misaligning his nature from that of God and bringing evil into the world.

again the Gnostics didn't believe that man had ever sinned
or that man brought evil into the world.

Any person can rejoin alignment with God through repentance of sin and faith in the atoning death and ressurection of Jesus Christ.  Those who have done so constitute The Church who will enjoy God forever in Heaven.

Again not all Christians have believed that Jesus died and was resurrected.

Have you ever read any books on early Christianity b4g? It might surprise you how much variety in belief there was back in the second and third centuries. Most of the creed you ascribe to was laid down in the fourth century when Constantine decided to create an orthodox Christianity, and proscribe all the other varieties.

[bandit4god]

Whoa, gang, we've got people running through the woods with pitchforks every which way.  Looking at the last few posts, I see folks with quite different purposes:
- Seeking evidence for various points in the creed
- Seeking to show discontinuity between sects of "Christianity" on the points of orthodoxy I shared
- Seeking to show discontinuity between sects of "Christianity" on topics I didn't share

Let me be clear on what I was trying to do, at Stevil's request: identify what core belief(s) orthodox Christianity has always held to have saving/redemptive qualities and, by omission, bring clarity to what belief(s) do not have those qualities.  Restated, the core belief is "Any person can rejoin alignment with God through repentance of sin and faith in the atoning death and ressurection of Jesus Christ."

Any sect that claims to be orthodox Christian and does not hold this core belief does so falsely.

[Attila]

Whoa, gang, we've got people running through the woods with pitchforks every which way.  Looking at the last few posts, I see folks with quite different purposes:
- Seeking evidence for various points in the creed
- Seeking to show discontinuity between sects of "Christianity" on the points of orthodoxy I shared
- Seeking to show discontinuity between sects of "Christianity" on topics I didn't share

Let me be clear on what I was trying to do, at Stevil's request: identify what core belief(s) orthodox Christianity has always held to have saving/redemptive qualities and, by omission, bring clarity to what belief(s) do not have those qualities.  Restated, the core belief is "Any person can rejoin alignment with God through repentance of sin and faith in the atoning death and ressurection of Jesus Christ."

Any sect that claims to be orthodox Christian and does not hold this core belief does so falsely.

Hi B4G,
Thanks for that, it works for me (I mean in terms of understanding you, of course ). So all this "family values" business [vomiting noises] is bogus (extraneous) in your view. The devil is in the detail (no pun intended) but how does "repentance of sin" work? Who determines what's a sin and what isn't. Being gay? Having an abortion? Eating pork? Eating prawns? Eating at all?... Who's call is this? Mine? Yours? If you don't think what you've done is a sin, you don't need to repent it, right?
Ciao,
Attila

[Norfolk And Chance]

Restated, the core belief is "Any person can rejoin alignment with God through repentance of sin and faith in the atoning death and ressurection of Jesus Christ."

Could Adolf Hitler rejoin alignment with god through repentence. Would he get a ticket through the pearly gates if he just repented?

What would happen to an atheist that rejects the idea of god and jesus, yet lives an honest and fulfilling life helping others and being an all round good guy? Would he go to hell?

Could you answer those two questions to the best of your "knowledge" and then sum up the answers and conclude what sort of being (other than being made up) god is? Thanks.