Infuriating Argument

[Mister Joy]

It's shocking. I never knew that there were fundamentalists on myspace... never imagined it to be their scene, but I suppose even they get to evolve.

So, things like downs syndrome, etc... that is the result of this worlds imperfection. We are further away from perfection than ever before. Obviously we were not created that way. The Bible fortold that these things would happen, the world would get worse before it gets better. My point was that lifes cycles in general all work together, there are niches sometimes because of imperfection, but the sun continues to come up in the morning, doesn't it? Why? It is perfectly placed to sustain life.

I have obviously studied history. I know what FALSE religion has put society through, make no mistake about that. I think it is poison and will experience a downfall soon. True religion has not ruined our society, but has tried to make it better.

This is a revolting argument. Obviously studied history? My arse. The crusades, anyone? The witch hunts? Bloody Mary? Appealing to my own country's history again here because it's what I know most about: Guy Fawkes? Let's have a good bit of Catholic/Protestant conflict shall we:

       

Burn him in a tub of tar.
    Burn him like a blazing star.
    Burn his body from his head.
    Then we'll say ol' Pope is dead.
    Hip hip hoorah!
    Hip hip hoorah hoorah!

I've heard people say similarly stupid things: "100 years ago this was a 'true Christian country' and wasn't it just so much better?" oh yes it was simply fantastic. The gaps between the upper, middle & lower classes were catastrophic (yaaay) and as a special treat for your girlfriend you could take her on a stroll through east end London to take in the starved rotting corpses of children lying in the gutter, ants nests in their eye balls & cheeks chewed off by rats. Wasn't it wonderful. They even had a bloody great war to look forward to!

This woman is ridiculous. She's got her head stuck into the jibes of Fox News: "oh my Gawwwwd there's never ever been terrorism like this before, BE AFRAID AND SUBMISSIVE, the world is going to END if you don't cooperate, they're going to harvest your children like schools of fish with a giant net made of unbreakable adamantium (science has proven that this was in fact the metal used to forge EXCALIBUR ) and do experiments on them OoooOOOOooOO aren't you terrified et cetera". No wonder she thinks the world is getting worse.

[Allhailtuna]

Yup, idiots such as us humans are way too advanced to have come into being.
A perfect being who is almighty, all-knowing, etc? Well...

[Bella]

Mark Twain said, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig." Fundies are swine.

[Bella]

Here's her new one... I thought if I'd stopped responding, she would go away...

You like posting my comments I guess so here's one:

Regarding a college education. That is great to have and all, but I chose not to. I am making more money right now than probably most people on here, doing what I want to do AND being able to stay at home with my daughter (oh yeah, and without having to pay off any student loans). That said, I never had anything against people who go to college - my best friend is in college, as well as many other witnesses that I know - that has nothing to do with our faith, what we believe and our reasoning, so I don't know why that is being brought out so much in this case (especially when, like I said, many who go to college have the same views as I do).

Also, I cannot understand why you wanted to hold the microphone so much. I always felt relieved that I didn't have that responsibility! I am spared that, as well as having to get up in front of people to give 45 minute talks (not to mention the time spent researching and having to write those talks). My husband has told me in the past that he would much rather have the privledges of women who give 5 minute talks and get to work on it with somebody else. I guess the grass is greener on the other side for some people. In my opinion though, it is much harder for men! Thank God I do not have those responsibilities.

You got the opinion, somehow, that the religion teaches men to dominate women. That is so far from the truth. It teaches them to honor the role of women in the congregation and to show appreciation for all that the women do. I don't know if you just came to a quick conclusion, or you weren't provided with the right information, or you weren't listening, or what - but you seem to have misunderstood "how it is". We are encouraged to ask questions, not to blindly follow any teaching, but do research (and yes, my research was a hoot!) You said the elders you spoke to acted like asking questions was a bad thing. That is very strange to me because like I said, I was always encouraged ask questions - to question the Bible's teachings and prove to myself whether or not they are true. I'm sorry that whoever you spoke to made you feel that way and that was not right on their part.

Here is proof of "how it is". This is from many publications regarding how women should be viewed, respected, honored and not dominated, published by the same people that you think are doing the exact opposite - please consider their intentions before coming to false conclusions:

“The advice of godly women was valued. When God-fearing Abraham hesitated to heed the advice of his godly wife, Sarah, on one occasion, Jehovah told him: “Listen to her voice.” (Genesis 21:10-12) The Hittite wives of Esau “were a source of bitterness of spirit to Isaac and Rebekah.” In time, Rebekah expressed the distress she would experience if their son Jacob was to marry a Hittite. What was Isaac’s reaction? “Consequently,” says the account, “Isaac called Jacob and blessed him and commanded him and said to him: ‘You must not take a wife from the daughters of Canaan.’” Yes, even though Rebekah had not offered formal advice, her husband made a decision that took her feelings into account. (Genesis 26:34, 35; 27:46; 28:1) King David later avoided bloodguilt because he listened to the plea of Abigail.â€"1 Samuel 25:32-35.”

“Women had a measure of authority in the family. Children were urged: “Listen, my son, to the discipline of your father, and do not forsake the law of your mother.” (Proverbs 1: The description of the “capable wife” in Proverbs chapter 31 reveals that an industrious married woman not only managed a household but might also handle real-estate transactions, establish a productive field, operate a small business, and be known for her words of wisdom. Most important of all was the praiseworthy woman’s reverential fear of Jehovah. No wonder the value of such a wife was “far more than that of corals”! Precious red coral was highly prized for jewelry and decorative purposes.â€"Proverbs 31:10-31.”

“Jehovah’s regard for women was reflected in the special favor he bestowed upon some of them in Bible times. Angels who communicated divine direction to them visited Hagar, Sarah, and the wife of Manoah. (Genesis 16:7-12; 18:9-15; Judges 13:2-5) There were “women servants” at the tabernacle and female singers in Solomon’s court.â€"Exodus 38:8; 1 Samuel 2:22; Ecclesiastes 2:8.”

“Several times in Israel’s history, Jehovah used a woman to represent him or to speak for him. Regarding the prophetess Deborah, we read: “The sons of Israel would go up to her for judgment.” (Judges 4:5) Following Israel’s defeat of Canaanite king Jabin, Deborah had a truly special privilege. She was evidently the composer, at least in part, of the victory song that eventually became part of Jehovah’s inspired record. (Judges, chapter 5) Centuries later, to inquire of Jehovah, King Josiah sent to the prophetess Huldah a delegation that included the high priest. Huldah could authoritatively reply: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said.” (2 Kings 22:11-15) On that occasion the king commanded the delegation to go to a prophetess, but this was done to receive direction from Jehovah.â€"Compare Malachi 2:7.”

"God’s concern for the welfare of women is evident from the instances in which he acted in behalf of some of his female worshipers. Twice he intervened to protect Abraham’s beautiful wife, Sarah, from being violated. (Genesis 12:14-20; 20:1-7) God showed favor to Jacob’s less-loved wife, Leah, by ‘opening her womb’ so that she bore a son. (Genesis 29:31, 32) When two God-fearing Israelite midwives risked their lives to preserve Hebrew male children from infanticide in Egypt, Jehovah appreciatively “presented them with families.” (Exodus 1:17, 20, 21) He also answered Hannah’s fervent prayer. (1 Samuel 1:10, 20) And when the widow of a prophet faced a creditor who was prepared to take her children to pay off her debt, Jehovah did not leave her in the lurch. Lovingly, God enabled the prophet Elisha to multiply her supply of oil so that she could pay the debt. Thus she preserved her family and her dignity.â€"Exodus 22:22, 23; 2 Kings 4:1-7.

Far from encouraging a disparaging view of women, therefore, the Hebrew Scriptures present a balanced picture of their lot among God’s servants. Women were treated with dignity and respect by godly men who followed Jehovah’s example and heeded his Law.”

“Illustrating that Jehovah does not require a wife to be blindly submissive to her husband is the case of Abigail. Her husband was a wealthy man, with large flocks of sheep and goats. But he was “harsh and bad in his practices.” Abigail refused to follow her husband in his bad course. Showing discretion, good sense, humility, and quick-mindedness, she prevented a situation that could have been disastrous for her household, and she was richly blessed by Jehovah.â€"1 Samuel 25:2-42.”

“A few women were even prophetesses. Such was the case with Deborah, during the time of the Judges. (Judges, chapters 4 and 5) Huldah was a prophetess in Judah, shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem.”

“Statistics show that “the women telling the good news are a large army,” making up the major part of the army of Witnesses that Jehovah is using in this time of the end. (Psalm 68:11) These hardworking Christian women have earned a fine name for themselves as they struggle to fulfill their role of wives, mothers, homemakers, breadwinners, as well as Christian ministers.”

“The father was to be the head of the household, but this would not be to the detriment of the wife. Rather, it would be to her advantage because she would have someone to back her up when she wielded her God-given authority over her children.”

“God has not given to man absolute authority over woman; man must answer to his head, Jesus Christ, and to God for the way that he exercises such headship. (1 Cor. 11:3) Furthermore, husbands are commanded “to be loving their wives as their own bodies” and to ‘assign honor’ to their wives. (Eph. 5:28; 1 Pet. 3:7) The sexual needs of a husband are not put above those of his wife in God’s arrangement for married couples. (1 Cor. 7:3, 4) The role of a capable wife, as outlined in the Bible, emphasizes her value to the household and the community. It allows a broad field in which she can use initiative while demonstrating her appreciation for her husband’s headship. (Prov. 31:10-31) The Bible commands children to honor not only their father but their mother as well. (Eph. 6:1-3) It also gives special attention to caring for the needs of widows. (Jas. 1:27) Thus among true Christians, women can find great security, true appreciation for themselves as individuals, and personal satisfaction in their activity.”

“God went on to say: ‘It is not good for the man to continue by himself. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.’” (God does not here describe the man as being a better person than the woman. Rather, God indicated that woman would possess qualities that would complement those of man within God’s arrangement. A complement is one of two mutually completing parts. Thus women as a group are outstanding in certain qualities and abilities; men, in others).”

“May women be preachers, proclaimers, ministers of the good news, outside the congregation meetings? At Pentecost of 33 C.E. holy spirit was poured out on both men and women. In explanation, the apostle Peter quoted Joel 2:28, 29, saying: “‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.’” (Acts 2:17, 18) In like manner today, women properly share in the Christian ministry, preaching from house to house and conducting home Bible studies.”


So, please don't judge people by the responsibilites that they agree to take on to establish some sort of order in any group or organization. Especially those who are serving others by doing so, making life easier for others. It is hard work and takes a kind, loving person to sacrifice so much time and so much effort for the sake of others. I'm thankful that I do not have to do what they do for the congregation.

Believe what you believe, be an athiest, whatever.... but just please consider the fact that these men are not trying to "dominate" women, but are helping them and allowing them to take care of their own responsibilites by sparing them of having to handle the microphone, prepare and give speeches, be an on call helper for others, sometimes staying up all hours of the night for the sake of those responsibilities, not getting paid for it, then having to get up the next day and go to their regular job, etc., etc., etc. It is a loving arrangement, and should be seen as such, regardless of your status when it comes having a religion or not.

I hope this makes up for whoever did not answer your questions in the past.

Geez, I'd said she should go to college to "learn something" not to make more money.

I guess I'm a bad woman since I'm not stepping down and fitting into my role, gah!!! I guess I've spent too much time around strong women at work and school that coming across someone who actually believes this just...

[Squid]

Bella, you're wasting your valuable my dear.  This person will not ever consider listening to reason.  From the two pieces you posted I've counted numerous fallacies, direct contradictions in argumentation, perceptual bias, mischaracterization of theories such as the big bang and evolution et cetera.  This conversation will on serve to infuriate you and let to further frustration.  You could probably circumvent the entire think by just telling them to "fuck off" and they'll walk away gloating about how they "won" and are "right all along about atheists" just as if you continue to try and impart knowledge and critical thinking through well reasoned and thought out messages.  The end will still be the same.

I received an invitation to a group.  The owner of it sent it to me.  The group is called Christians Bash Atheists or something to that effect.  What do I do?  Don't even look at the site and deleted the message.  Nothing productive can come from my joining that group.

I will admit that there have been times I've gotten caught up in debates and made posts that could almost be a review paper published in a scientific journal and what was the outcome?  They never changed their mind let alone understood why they were wrong.  It has nothing to do with the information being exchanged.  It is a personal preference based upon many things for them - a majority it was simply introduction at a young age through the family.  Some grow up and change their mind, some don't.  The view becomes close to them and is almost seen as a personality trait therefore attacking or questioning their belief becomes attacking them personally.  Not to mention doubt and questioning isn't allowed in a religion based upon believing without proof or any evidence.  Such people are walking contradictions but manage to rationalize anything that opposes their view away because to entertain the idea that they may be wrong causes all sorts of anxiety which is through what they have been taught - blind faith, no questioning, and so forth and then with the threat of punishment - burning in hell for eternity.  Their fear keeps them from questioning their beliefs.

I'd simply just delete this person's messages and end it.  You'll only be ultimately pissed off and nothing will ever be resolved.

[Bella]

Squid, you are absolutely right (and I think I'm going to have to quote you later one) and I know that it IS a waste of time... But, I will never cease to be amazed at the purposeful disregard for rational thought that some people have. What is entertaining is that, by trying to prove me wrong, she is only strengthening what I have said... and she still can't see it. My response:

Actually, I'm a little tired of it... that's why I didn't post your other emails.

I didn't tell you to go to college so that you could make more money (although that was sure sweet of you to try to compare your income with the income of my friends... they'll love that). I told you to go to open your eyes. You "OBVIOUSLY" don't know your history. Geez. It says your highest level of education was HIGH SCHOOL! Go at least take some classes at your local community college (e.g. history, psychology, philosophy... WOMEN'S STUDIES!!!)

You seemed to have missed the point... again. It is not about holding microphones, it is about how I should have been able to do that. Giving speeches sucked (well, from the ones I wrote where could only go up there and speak to another women in front of the men... which is a whole other level of crazy). You had said that it's "people like me" who are making the world a bad place... what about people like YOU?! Are you really so unmotivated and lazy that you're glad someone gets to lead you around by the nose because then you don't have to worry about yourself? Ugh.

It absolutely DOES teach it to dominate women. Listen carefuly:
It teaches roles. The roles include men as "the head" of women (that's a quote from you). This means that it's teaching men to dominate women. No, they don't get to beat them with sticks... is THAT your idea of domination?? Maybe the root of your problem is that you think women NEED men to "help" them.

Another thing... Did you ever consider that those "roles" should be filled by people who want to do them, have the time to do them, are good at them, etc. instead of based on their sex? Isn't it doing EVERYONE there a great disservice if the person giving the speech is a less-skilled speaker... but is still given that "role" because they are male?

My problem was not that there weren't enough scriptures in the Bible that men have authority over women... it was that they HAD authority over women for absolutely no reason. There are plenty of men less intelligent than me in this world and there is no way that I will let them speak at me just because they have a penis.

I'm going to save some time and just pick apart a FEW of the quotes:

"Statistics show that "the women telling the good news are a large army," making up the major part of the army of Witnesses that Jehovah is using in this time of the end. (Psalm 68:11) These hardworking Christian women have earned a fine name for themselves as they struggle to fulfill their role of wives, mothers, homemakers, breadwinners, as well as Christian ministers."

What statistics? I see no statistics. Where did they get these statistics? How are they defining "large"? What the hell kind of religious paraphernalia is this that you're trying to quote as truth? That is just a meaningless claim with nothing to back it up. Try to look at things more objectively.


"Jehovah's regard for women was reflected in the special favor he bestowed upon some of them in Bible times. Angels who communicated divine direction to them visited Hagar, Sarah, and the wife of Manoah. (Genesis 16:7-12; 18:9-15; Judges 13:2-5) There were "women servants" at the tabernacle and female singers in Solomon's court.—Exodus 38:8; 1 Samuel 2:22; Ecclesiastes 2:8."

OMG! HE LET WOMEN BE SERVANTS! YAY! HE REALLY *DOES* CARE! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


"The father was to be the head of the household, but this would not be to the detriment of the wife. Rather, it would be to her advantage because she would have someone to back her up when she wielded her God-given authority over her children."

Guess what? In this society, husbands and wives are supposed to be equal... but they STILL back each other up and work together when raising the kids. But yes... the husband's bigger so he's much better at beating the kids, if that's what you're getting at.



Anyways, my stance is the same... Believe what you want to. That is your business. However, don't try to impose it on other people. If you believe that evey animal on the planet was within walking distance to Noah's house or that some guy blew a horn and knocked down city walls, or that a loving God killed numerous people and let poor Job suffer to prove to Satan how cool he was... whatever. But, you are not going to be able to provide any sort of proof... EVER. You are not going to rationally argue its contents... EVER. So, find whatever joy in your belief system... but don't impose your private relationship with God onto other people.

My friends response as well:

Isn't it funny how fanatical fundamentalist believers tend to get when they hear someone with a different opinion. Here is the thought of the day: "Maybe it isn't the path that we walk, but how we walk that path that really matters."

If you are a good Christian, then good for you. If you are a good Atheist, good for you too. If you have nothing better to do than spend your time spouting hate speech about why you are right and everybody else is wrong, do me a favor and first slap yourself, then go enroll in a community college world theology class.

It is all the same, just everyone looks at it from a slightly different angle. It doesn't matter if you call him, god, jesus, allah, buddah, whoever... what makes a difference is how you go about your beliefs in whoever you believe in, even if it's nothing. We can't prove one right from wrong, we weren't there 2000 years ago, and history is notoriously twisted. But we do know one thing... What is the one thing that comes up in EVERY religion? It's love. Plain and simple. That's how you show and share with people your beliefs. Not telling someone how much more money you make than them, and then try to base that previous statement around religion? That has to be the most ignorant, unthoughtful, and uneducated bullshit that I have heard spewed on myspace in a while.

I know that there is no way that she's going to have some realization from what I say... but debates with stupid people always make me feel smart.  

[a_jaynepayne]

oh holy crap this thread and so many others have sparked so many things I want to talk about.  okay wait I need to regather myself and come back...sorry I just joined this morning and I'm so f-n relieved to be somewhere where people are like "Oh okay that's what ya think, that's what I think too"  Seriously how many FACTUAL events need to take place in the past and present to get people to see that some things just don't make any damn sense?  I didn't read entirely through this thread but my thinking is that there have been some amazingly strong female leaders from Celtic warrior women to Queen friggen Elizabeth...but oh they were (for lack of a better phrase) the exception to the rule....WELL IF GOD IS SO DAMN INFALABLE WHY THE HELL ARE THERE EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE!!!!  

I was raised in a very vvvvvveeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrryyyyyyy Mormon family and women being less than men is one of their biggest things....and the insulting thing about it all is that the fricken women act totally fantastically satisfied with that.  Let's just say for the sake of arguement here that God is real and great grand and wonderful - Do you think he's alone?!  Hell no the man's got a woman who makes the whole thing work...My husband would be dick without me as I would be without him...I just don't get why religions can ignore history and say that women need to be put on the back burner, like we were just put on the planet to eat the fuckin apple!!!  whoa got a little excited there sorry...I'm an in the closet atheist still so bear with my outbursts :-))

[tigerlily46514]

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/atrocities.html

I hear ya , Bella,above is a site to post to her.  It is about all the horrible things in the bible, like god ordering enemy women to have their uteruses cut open and the fetuses destroyed (god is apparently not a pro-lifer..)  I have some more, but i will have to post in a second note here......

[tigerlily46514]

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/fundy.html

Debating fundies is a futile effort, but the above site might give you a chucke about debating fundies.  Below is one of hundreds available on the net re: bible contradictions.

http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

[SabineMaia]

I'm a big question asker when it comes to overwhelming responses like she's giving you. The more you break down her tirade, the easier it is to break down her logic.

Why not ask her in what era(s) she thought the world was not deteriorating? What time was better than the present to be alive? You'll be able to easily refute her choice with even a passing familiarity with history. There are enough plagues, wars, famine, etc for any time.

As for the women issue, ask her why, if Jehova allowed women to speak for him, they aren't good enough to speak in a modern church? What has changed in the last two millenia? Aren't exceptions to the rules allowed anymore?

[tigerlily46514]

http://www.goatstar.org/peculiar-bible-verses/

the above one is cute enuff...somebody stop me!!!

 :roll:

[Steve Reason]

"i was wonder if you yourself knew that darwin disowned his theroy in his last days knowing that fossils show species suddenly appering not sight mutations made over long periods of time. the fact is eveolution is total improvible."

     

[Bella]

As soon as I started throwing out examples from history books and the bible, she went away. She either crawled back into her oblivious hole or she's looking for something to "prove" me wrong with. Lol, in either scenario, she's gone for good. One point for the Atheists.

[a_jaynepayne]

it's gonna be a never ending battle I think.  It sort of reminds me of the never ending battle with dog shit I've got in my yard.  I mean as long as I have dogs living with me I'm gonna have to scoop up the shit.  and I'm not gonna be gettin' rid of my dogs cause no matter how much the crap bugs me they're still good dogs ya know?  So I've equipped myself with a really great pooper scooper and it makes the job a little easier....ha, that's a damn good metaphor if I do say so myself.   This website, other atheists, and just knowledge in general being the pooper scooper I guess...and the shit...well that part wasn't a metaphor it's still crap.

[rlrose328]

Great metaphor, jayne!    I love it!