For the love of Christ

[Heretical Rants]

You are stereotyping Christianity, and I am very much offended by it.

You have the right to be offended but thedport has the right to his opinions, if his opinion is in opposition to yours bla bla bla

By all appearances, it isn't.

--your friendly neighborhood semi-objective observer

[PapistItalian16]

You are stereotyping Christianity, and I am very much offended by it.

You have the right to be offended but thedport has the right to his opinions, if his opinion is in opposition to yours you are most likely to get offended by at least one small point. However the thedports words weren't really that offensive just highlighting the hypocrisy about certain people who consider themselves to be christians and follow the teachings of the fable Jesus.

No, his words werent offensive, but the generalization of Christians was. He never mentioned how "certain" people who consider themselves Christians are hypocrites. They way that I had read it he was generalizing all Christians to be like the one in his example.

[xSilverPhinx]

You are stereotyping Christianity, and I am very much offended by it.

You have the right to be offended but thedport has the right to his opinions, if his opinion is in opposition to yours you are most likely to get offended by at least one small point. However the thedports words weren't really that offensive just highlighting the hypocrisy about certain people who consider themselves to be christians and follow the teachings of the fable Jesus.

No, his words werent offensive, but the generalization of Christians was. He never mentioned how "certain" people who consider themselves Christians are hypocrites. They way that I had read it he was generalizing all Christians to be like the one in his example.

You have a point, but as someone who talks about Christians as well and sometimes generalises (I sometimes forget to add things like 'some Christians' to make distinctions explicit) I'm aware of how generalisations are wrong, but sometimes forget to make that clear.

Think of it this way, if you know that a generalised statement does not apply to you, just know that it does not apply to you and that there's no personal reason to get offended. If you know that you're not a hypocrite, then why feel offended if some Christians are? Next time something like this happens, just calm down and clarify.

But then it should go both ways. People who do not fit a generalised good statement usually don't complain about any stereotyping. 

It's worth rembering that it's the bad things that leave a stronger impression on people's minds, and this applies to everything, not just religious matters, and hypocritical Christians do leave a stronger impression that good Christians and thus stereotype the whole group.

[Recusant]

So, yes, a man who is a prick and has done all these things can still get into heaven, according to the scriptures.  

Wrong.  

"Woe to the worthless shepherd who leaves his flock!"-- Zachariah 11:17 Translation: Woe to the father that deserts his family.

The whole second chapter of the book of Micah is titled "Woe to Oppressors".

"Woe to those who rise early in the morning that they may pursue strong drink, Who stay up late in the evening that wine may inflame them!"-- Isaiah 5:11

Woe is being used as a warning of the result of said sins.

What bearing do these Old Testament verses have on this question?  The fact is that Christians acknowledge that they are all sinners, undeserving of heaven on their own.  It is only through the supposed sacrifice of Jesus that they hope to enter heaven.  There is only one unforgivable sin mentioned in the Bible:

Mark 3:28, 29

Amen I say to you, that all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and the blasphemies wherewith they shall blaspheme:

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.

Thus a person can sin in innumerable ways during their lifetime, going far beyond the sort of behavior described in previous posts, and still enter heaven if they:

1. Accept Jesus as their savior.

2. Ask forgiveness for their sins.

3. Avoid blaspheming against the Holy Ghost.

I think fester30 is correct.  Your Old Testament verses cannot supersede the teachings of the New Testament.

(Even ten years ago, I would have taken this opportunity to make some blasphemous remarks about the Holy Ghost.  I've got that covered now; any further blasphemy against that furtive member of the Christian trinity would be redundant.)

[Stevil]

Blasphemy has been condemned as a serious, or even the most serious, sin by the major creeds and Church theologians

Blaspheme is such an ambiguous word.
Given the dire consequences you would have thought it would have been made crystal clear in the bible, quran, torah...

Christian theology condemns blasphemy. It is spoken of in the Mark 3:29, where blaspheming the Holy Spirit is spoken of as unforgivable - the eternal sin. However, there is dispute over what form this blasphemy may take and whether it qualifies as blasphemy in the conventional sense.

The Torah not only mentions God's eternal punishment but a kind of double jeopardy where the oft' used and much loved phrase comes into play

In the third book of the Torah, Leviticus 24:16 states that those who speak blasphemy "shall surely be put to death".

And so it seems, the Christian's got word of the Torah's message

Historically, blasphemy against God had been a crime punishable by death in much of the Christian world.

Although I'd be much interested if the instances of this lovely phrase within the Christian bible have ever been carried out by the Christian world

'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death

And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them

And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them

And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you

And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast

And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them

So quite clearly the bible insists that certain folk should be put to death. But doesn't talk about putting to death the blasphemer.

Well... Not so clear actually.

And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.  21 And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless

You would have thought that this would have fallen into the same category of "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife" and just to make this crystal clear, incase you were wondering "even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife"

But as luck may have it, Catholics have a way out with regards to blaspheme, despite that the bible says "Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men"

In the Catholic Church, there are specific prayers and devotions as Acts of Reparation for blasphemy.

It seems that all us atheist's are blasphemers

In Britain's last blasphemy execution, 18-year-old Thomas Aikenhead was executed for the crime in 1697. He was prosecuted for denying the veracity of the Old Testament and the legitimacy of Christ's miracles

NOTE: Not Bible quotes come from WIKIPEDIA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy

[AnimatedDirt]

Thus a person can sin in innumerable ways during their lifetime, going far beyond the sort of behavior described in previous posts, and still enter heaven if they:

1. Accept Jesus as their savior.

2. Ask forgiveness for their sins.

3. Avoid blaspheming against the Holy Ghost.

Of course each of these have deeper meanings than the simple terms or ideas promoted here.  But I'm sure I don't need to relay them to *you as it probably doesn't matter to you anyway.

[thedport]

Yeah, I understand that you can go to heaven no matter what your transgressions as long as you ask for forgiveness and accept jesus as your lord and savoir.

I guesse what I was trying to say was that I feel the promise of eternal life in heaven as long as you accept jesus, and ask for forgiveness has led to much moral ambeguity.

I am not saying that I think christians are immorral, so please do not take it that way. But I feel much sorrow when I see people destroying their lives, or being very unkind and say, well I am a christian. And act like that makes it all better.

I am not sure if those that have read my post's so far can tell this about me. But I try to be as kind and understanding as possible. I feel that without love and compassion nothing else matters. Don't take that as I do not feel that some people deserve what they get. Like Bin laden, yes I feel sorrow that things happened they way they did, on both sides but that does not mean I do not feel that he deserved to die.

But just because I am atheist I have been told by theists that I am an idiot, a godless heathen, an immoral bastard, and numerous other nasty things. But those same people have a certain amount of mallice that I do not share.

So the origanal post was why, if I am a immoral godless heathen, can I show more compassion than the theists that feel that having jesus on their side give them free reign to pass judgements on people without knowing to the full extent what has happened in these peoples lives to bring them to where they are. I love the song What it's like by everlast, none of us are perfect, but we all have the ability to love and help eachother.

[Recusant]

Thus a person can sin in innumerable ways during their lifetime, going far beyond the sort of behavior described in previous posts, and still enter heaven if they:

1. Accept Jesus as their savior.

2. Ask forgiveness for their sins.

3. Avoid blaspheming against the Holy Ghost.

Of course each of these have deeper meanings than the simple terms or ideas promoted here.  But I'm sure I don't need to relay them to *you as it probably doesn't matter to you anyway.

Quite right; it doesn't matter to me in the sense that I'm not worried that some mythical "immortal soul" that it is postulated that I possess is doomed to an eternity of torment.  I do have what might be called an academic interest, in that I find it intriguing to learn about the beliefs of various people.

However simply I may have stated it, I think you'll agree that my formulation is accurate.  I'm aware of the supposed "deeper meanings," having attended a Christian school for 9 years and having continued to study and explore Christian thinking since. If you feel a need to elaborate on any of the above points and feel that you can do it while avoiding sounding as if you're preaching, feel free to do so.

I was addressing what I consider to be a rather bizarre position for a Christian to take; citing Old Testament passages as if they were the final word on the subject.

[AnimatedDirt]

If you feel a need to elaborate on any of the above points and feel that you can do it while avoiding sounding as if you're preaching, feel free to do so.

Nope.  Had I felt the need, I would've given more detail.  Suffice it to say, accepting Christ is not simply a mouthing of idle words, nor is asking for forgiveness a utterance of simply "I'm sorry".

[Ihateyoumike]

...Only about a quarter of Christians are actually "hypocrites"....

Would you kindly provide a source for this statement?

Because I've heard that 71.96% of statistics on the internet are simply cultivated from the author's rectum. 

[thedport]

...Only about a quarter of Christians are actually "hypocrites"....

Would you kindly provide a source for this statement?

Because I've heard that 71.96% of statistics on the internet are simply cultivated from the author's rectum. 

Well you know what they say, there lies, damn lies, then statistics. LOL

[Whitney]

According to this studyalmost all American Christians are hypocrites. 

[fester30]

Sorry it took so long to get back with you on this.  Busy week preparing for the rapture.

 A man doesn't cheat on his wife.  If a man has sex with a woman who winds up having sex with someone else, he has caused her to commit adultery. in other words, it's not his sin, it's hers.  In other places it actually says that it is a sin for a man to commit adultery.  I guess it's not important.  According to the Bible, anyone that doesn't have the same faith as you is dangerous to be around.  Then again the Bible also says you should go forth and preach the word.  Again, I guess we have to make up our own minds.

Can you site where you got the underlined interpritations from?

Matt 5:32 - But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

I slightly misread it at first, as this verse has to do with marriage, and my original comment just had to do with sex.  However, to Catholics and Missouri Synod Lutherans (two of the denominations I frequented in my youth), if you have sex you are married in God's eyes (what numerous ministers in both denominations told me directly).  However, if a man divorces his wife for any other reason than fornication, he is causing HER to commit adultery.  It does not say anything about that same man bearing any fault of his own adultery.  Her sin, not his.  If you hold to the idea that sex=married in God's eyes, then this especially holds true.

2 Corinthians 6:14: 14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
     " I will dwell in them
     And walk among them.
     I will be their God,
     And they shall be My people."
17 Therefore
     " Come out from among them
     And be separate, says the Lord.
     Do not touch what is unclean,
     And I will receive you."
      18 " I will be a Father to you,
     And you shall be My sons and daughters,
     Says the LORD Almighty."

In other words, God has said make sure you spend more time around believers than unbelievers.  Going against God is dangerous, therefore it's dangerous for a Christian to spend too much time with unbelievers.

Yes, the Bible has rules in it that followers should live by.  However, it does actually say that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.  Regardless of the sinful life (as all are sinful) salvation is through Christ.

Right, but to truly believe in Christ you must follow Him. When you follow Him he will make himself known to you. One can not truly beleive in something if they do not know it. Sure, one could easily say they believe in something, but they dont truly believe, because they do not know.

Look at it in the sense if a cause (ie: a revolution). Sure it easy to say that you believe in said cause, but unless you truly know what it stands for, your vews can easily be faltered by outside influences.

So the guy who spent his entire life as a Muslim gets in a car accident, and suddenly his heart is moved to Jesus, and asks God to take him into his kingdom, as he accepts Christ... are you saying he goes to hell because he didn't live his life with that belief?  Just because someone lives their life in a cavalier manner doesn't mean they don't truly believe in their heart and truly accept Christ in the last moments before death.  Sure, Jesus mentions that only those who do the will of his father will enter into the kingdom (therefore establishing that belief isn't enough), but then he tells the criminal who asks at the last minute for Jesus to remember him that he will join him in the kingdom.  So deathbed pleading is or isn't enough?  Do you have to be on the cross next to Jesus for it to work?  It's confusing at best I suppose.

So, yes, a man who is a prick and has done all these things can still get into heaven, according to the scriptures.  

Wrong.  

"Woe to the worthless shepherd who leaves his flock!"-- Zachariah 11:17 Translation: Woe to the father that deserts his family.

The whole second chapter of the book of Micah is titled "Woe to Oppressors".

"Woe to those who rise early in the morning that they may pursue strong drink, Who stay up late in the evening that wine may inflame them!"-- Isaiah 5:11

Woe is being used as a warning of the result of said sins.

[/quote]

Every time I bring up the horrible things God does to people in the Old Testament, and how we're supposed to kill homosexuals and Sabbath-workers, Christians tell me that is the old covenant, and that there is a new covenant in the blood of Christ written in the New Testament, therefore those old laws no longer pertain.  Now a Christian is using the Old Testament to prove his point about acts being a necessary part of faith.  How about the prodigal's son who was lost to his father, but then the father held a celebration when he returned?  Is all the talk of forgiveness and grace under the new covenant just lip service if you must meet faith with works?

[AnimatedDirt]

According to this studyalmost all American Christians are hypocrites. 

I know I am for sure.

[PapistItalian16]

...Only about a quarter of Christians are actually "hypocrites"....

Would you kindly provide a source for this statement?

Because I've heard that 71.96% of statistics on the internet are simply cultivated from the author's rectum. 

If I could have cited this, I would have. It is based apon the Christians that I know, and I should have mentioned that. my bad.

And I have come to the realization that I too am a hypocrite in some ways. I swear at school and make dirty jokes with my friends. I've gotten drunk on occaision, and have probably been quite am "A-H" to some people in the past 16 years that I have been on this Earth. But there is a difference in sining and thinking you're okay just cause' youve been "born again" (and then continueing to sin), and sinning and feeling sorrow and trying to better yourself and become less of a sinner, and less of a hypocrite. To act as Christ did is what most Christians strive to do, but the simple fact that we are only human gets in the way. We (Christ's Church) are not perfect --I am not perfect-- but Christ was, and that is who I strive to be like. 

Every time I bring up the horrible things God does to people in the Old Testament, and how we're supposed to kill homosexuals and Sabbath-workers, Christians tell me that is the old covenant, and that there is a new covenant in the blood of Christ written in the New Testament, therefore those old laws no longer pertain.  Now a Christian is using the Old Testament to prove his point about acts being a necessary part of faith.  How about the prodigal's son who was lost to his father, but then the father held a celebration when he returned?  Is all the talk of forgiveness and grace under the new covenant just lip service if you must meet faith with works?

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
  18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
  19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
  20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Covenant made in Christ's blood was a covenant of how much He loves us, and how He died for our sins. That Covenant did not "abolish" the old laws, but it fulfilled them (ie: "to bring to realization" or "clarify"). This is MY interpritation of this, NOT "other Christians". There is a difference.

In this passage above, in Matthew 5: 19-20, Christ is obviously preaching against hypocrites, he does it A LOT in the Gospels, but it took a while for His Apostles to "get it" just as it takes a lot of us Christians to "get it". In Matt 5:20, He is saying that only those who are more righteous than the pharasees and the teachers of the law(who are hypocrites: Matt 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." ) will enter heaven.