Near death experiences?

[iSok]

Or can you add a third?

How did science verify that he had the dreams?

How the dreams happened might be very important in describing what happened and how it happened.

Science was not there, when it happened, as I said before.
The guy does not seem to be a liar, he would be a nut if he did it for money (3 books in 30 years for changing your life is insane...)
I can understand very well why he wants to write about it.

The same dream repeated for 10 years, untill he became a Muslim and realised what it meant.
He was an atheist, while he was dreaming the same dream several times.
This is all the info, I can give you and have.

Can you give a reasonable third option?

What astonished me is the exact setting, detailed dream versus detailed reality. (if we assume he's speaking the truth).

He claims to have dreamed praying in this mosque before it happened.  I do have some problems with his claims.  For one, I was a lucid dreamer when I was on medication.  The dreams were so lucid at times I would wake up and wonder if I had just gone into a dream or woke up from reality instead of to reality.  It was really crazy.  Yet even as lucid as these dreams were, I never once woke up and remembered details anywhere near the details he says he remembered.  He may have had some cloudy dreams similar to his prayer experience, and after he had his experience, he retroactively filled in the memories of those dreams with his actual experience.  It could also have been simple deja vu, which can be explained as well.

I accept that I cannot prove God doesn't exist, therefore it is possible that his dreams were signs from Allah.  However, based on that logic, you also have to accept that you cannot prove that Hinduism isn't the real, true religion.  You cannot prove reincarnation doesn't happen.  Therefore, it is also possible that he was a Muslim in his life immediately previous to his life as Dr. Lang, and as a Muslim had prayed in that mosque or a similar one, and that his past life experience was returning to him in dreams.  This could also explain why he was pulled to Islam, and why he was pulled toward that mosque.

I can go into a very detailed explanation here Fester why God would allow other people to go into Hinduism or other religions except Islam.
But my primary purpose here is: There's more than materialism.

Also, your argument about how he changed his life does not prove that he isn't lying.  I had a preacher lie to me last month, telling me that I had just popped into his head while I was deployed one day, and it was spiritual in meaning.  I called him out on his Miss Cleo Psychic Friends Network tactic, and he admitted he hadn't thought of me.  He had no money to gain from it.  Some people make things up not for money or to convert people, but just for small measures of fame or importance or to legitimize their life in the eyes of others.

Of course, we can't objectively determine whether the guy is speaking the truth or not. It's our personal choice.
But, if I watch his interviews, his way of talking. He seems to be a honest person.
In his book he tells he had a lot of trouble to accept Islam, the only pillar he had, was his dream.

For someone who is out on fame, he would study Islam and become a scholar.
And then he would certainly get a lot of fame. But he is rather a humble looking person, and acts also this way.
He continued teaching mathematics at university after he converted.

So I believe he tells the truth. For you it may be different, I very well understand.

[fester30]

The guy does not seem to be a liar, he would be a nut if he did it for money (3 books in 30 years for changing your life is insane...)

The best con men don't seem to be liars, either.  Also, while he may not be doing anything for the money, he may also be getting appearance and speaking fees.  Or maybe he believes every word of his story, but like I said, there are other explanations.

What astonished me is the exact setting, detailed dream versus detailed reality. (if we assume he's speaking the truth).

And this was my point, that his memory of the dream seemed way too detailed to be an actual memory of an actual dream, but rather he filled in details after-the-fact to fit that day in the mosque.

I can go into a very detailed explanation here Fester why God would allow other people to go into Hinduism or other religions except Islam.
But my primary purpose here is: There's more than materialism.

You missed my point on the Hinduism.  I wasn't talking about why God would allow people to go into Hinduism.  I was saying that if it's possible he received a message from God, then it is also equally possible that instead of a message from God, he was experiencing flashbacks and spiritual residue from his reincarnation, as he was a Muslim in his previous life.  In other words, anything we cannot disprove must be a possibility.

[quote="iSok"]Of course, we can't objectively determine whether the guy is speaking the truth or not. It's our personal choice.
But, if I watch his interviews, his way of talking. He seems to be a honest person.
In his book he tells he had a lot of trouble to accept Islam, the only pillar he had, was his dream.

For someone who is out on fame, he would study Islam and become a scholar.
And then he would certainly get a lot of fame. But he is rather a humble looking person, and acts also this way.
He continued teaching mathematics at university after he converted.

So I believe he tells the truth. For you it may be different, I very well understand.[/quote]

This is another good point.  Just like religion, this guy's story must be taken on faith, as there is no way to confirm it actually happened.  You will choose to believe it because it suits your purpose in continuing and affirming your belief system, while I'll choose to ignore it because I don't find anything plausible about the entire story.

[iSok]

The guy does not seem to be a liar, he would be a nut if he did it for money (3 books in 30 years for changing your life is insane...)

The best con men don't seem to be liars, either.  Also, while he may not be doing anything for the money, he may also be getting appearance and speaking fees.  Or maybe he believes every word of his story, but like I said, there are other explanations.

What astonished me is the exact setting, detailed dream versus detailed reality. (if we assume he's speaking the truth).

And this was my point, that his memory of the dream seemed way too detailed to be an actual memory of an actual dream, but rather he filled in details after-the-fact to fit that day in the mosque.

I can go into a very detailed explanation here Fester why God would allow other people to go into Hinduism or other religions except Islam.
But my primary purpose here is: There's more than materialism.

You missed my point on the Hinduism.  I wasn't talking about why God would allow people to go into Hinduism.  I was saying that if it's possible he received a message from God, then it is also equally possible that instead of a message from God, he was experiencing flashbacks and spiritual residue from his reincarnation, as he was a Muslim in his previous life.  In other words, anything we cannot disprove must be a possibility.

[quote="iSok"]Of course, we can't objectively determine whether the guy is speaking the truth or not. It's our personal choice.
But, if I watch his interviews, his way of talking. He seems to be a honest person.
In his book he tells he had a lot of trouble to accept Islam, the only pillar he had, was his dream.

For someone who is out on fame, he would study Islam and become a scholar.
And then he would certainly get a lot of fame. But he is rather a humble looking person, and acts also this way.
He continued teaching mathematics at university after he converted.

So I believe he tells the truth. For you it may be different, I very well understand.

This is another good point.  Just like religion, this guy's story must be taken on faith, as there is no way to confirm it actually happened.  You will choose to believe it because it suits your purpose in continuing and affirming your belief system, while I'll choose to ignore it because I don't find anything plausible about the entire story.[/quote]


Fester, the world is filled with idiots who claim a lot of things, many of them are believers.
What many of them claim, I don't believe what they say, because I will always try to find some error in their reasoning, or they might have some sort of problem.
I did exactly the same, when I first heard this guy talking about it.

I can only conclude that he HAS too be honnest, there's no other possible way.
As for his dream, he did not fill in a detailed setting.
He dreamed of the exact setting as he came across (the dream repeated many times, so reasonable he knows it well)
I read his book and in his book he admitted he had a lot of problems with converting, not with Islam. But with the Muslim community today.
The only thing that gave him strength was his dream.

It either is a coincidence or a sign from God. I believe in the second.

[fester30]

Fester, the world is filled with idiots who claim a lot of things, many of them are believers.
What many of them claim, I don't believe what they say, because I will always try to find some error in their reasoning, or they might have some sort of problem.
I did exactly the same, when I first heard this guy talking about it.

I can only conclude that he HAS too be honnest, there's no other possible way.
As for his dream, he did not fill in a detailed setting.
He dreamed of the exact setting as he came across (the dream repeated many times, so reasonable he knows it well)
I read his book and in his book he admitted he had a lot of problems with converting, not with Islam. But with the Muslim community today.
The only thing that gave him strength was his dream.

It either is a coincidence or a sign from God. I believe in the second.

Again, you can't claim that it is impossible that he was dishonest.  You are going by what you feel and not by actual evidence, and humans are very bad lie detectors.

You also can't claim that he backfilled the details to fit his real life experience.  You are not him.  You did not have his dreams, you do not have his memories, you are taking his word at face value.  I have had many repeated dreams and can never remember such specific details like colors people were wearing or colors of carpets or window placement.  He may be special, and perhaps there are people that can remember such details in dreams, but it is at least POSSIBLE that he filled in the details of his dreams after the fact.

Also, there are more options than just coincidence or sign from God.  I presented the reincarnation theory (you're Muslim telling an atheist that a Muslim theory is possible... I'm an atheist telling a Muslim that a Hindu theory is possible).  You can't ignore possibilities just because you don't believe them.  I admit that maybe I'm wrong, and if so there's probably a spot in hell with my name on it, and that it's possible he's being honest and actually had these dreams and that the God of Islam was sending him a sign.  Are you willing to admit it's possible that either he's making it up or filling in details or reincarnated or that there could be many other non-Muslim possibilities that don't involve God or at least don't involve the God of Islam?

You mention you don't take at face value many of the crazy things some people claim.  Is it possible you aren't ignoring his account because he just happens to be Muslim and giving an account that supports your belief?  When I was a Christian, I heard of the people who claimed out of body and near death experiences where they went to heaven or hell for a short time and met Jesus or Peter or Satan before going back to their body.  Just because they were preaching a pro-Christian message didn't mean I actually bought into their stories.

If this guy was talking about a dream he had where he was sitting in the third wooden bench and he and everybody else knelt on a step in front of him connected to the back of the second wooden bench in front of him and there was a man in a black robe with a white collar behind a podium speaking and a stained glass window behind him illuminated by the sun outside the building, and one day he found himself kneeling in a church that looked exactly like his dream, and that proved to him that Jesus was God and Christianity was the truth, would you believe him just because he seemed honest and didn't seem to have a reason to lie?  Seems like the same sign from God to some Christians... and there have been plenty of people who have had such experiences.

[iSok]

Fester, the world is filled with idiots who claim a lot of things, many of them are believers.
What many of them claim, I don't believe what they say, because I will always try to find some error in their reasoning, or they might have some sort of problem.
I did exactly the same, when I first heard this guy talking about it.

I can only conclude that he HAS too be honnest, there's no other possible way.
As for his dream, he did not fill in a detailed setting.
He dreamed of the exact setting as he came across (the dream repeated many times, so reasonable he knows it well)
I read his book and in his book he admitted he had a lot of problems with converting, not with Islam. But with the Muslim community today.
The only thing that gave him strength was his dream.

It either is a coincidence or a sign from God. I believe in the second.

Again, you can't claim that it is impossible that he was dishonest.  You are going by what you feel and not by actual evidence, and humans are very bad lie detectors.

You also can't claim that he backfilled the details to fit his real life experience.  You are not him.  You did not have his dreams, you do not have his memories, you are taking his word at face value.  I have had many repeated dreams and can never remember such specific details like colors people were wearing or colors of carpets or window placement.  He may be special, and perhaps there are people that can remember such details in dreams, but it is at least POSSIBLE that he filled in the details of his dreams after the fact.

Also, there are more options than just coincidence or sign from God.  I presented the reincarnation theory (you're Muslim telling an atheist that a Muslim theory is possible... I'm an atheist telling a Muslim that a Hindu theory is possible).  You can't ignore possibilities just because you don't believe them.  I admit that maybe I'm wrong, and if so there's probably a spot in hell with my name on it, and that it's possible he's being honest and actually had these dreams and that the God of Islam was sending him a sign.  Are you willing to admit it's possible that either he's making it up or filling in details or reincarnated or that there could be many other non-Muslim possibilities that don't involve God or at least don't involve the God of Islam?

You mention you don't take at face value many of the crazy things some people claim.  Is it possible you aren't ignoring his account because he just happens to be Muslim and giving an account that supports your belief?  When I was a Christian, I heard of the people who claimed out of body and near death experiences where they went to heaven or hell for a short time and met Jesus or Peter or Satan before going back to their body.  Just because they were preaching a pro-Christian message didn't mean I actually bought into their stories.

If this guy was talking about a dream he had where he was sitting in the third wooden bench and he and everybody else knelt on a step in front of him connected to the back of the second wooden bench in front of him and there was a man in a black robe with a white collar behind a podium speaking and a stained glass window behind him illuminated by the sun outside the building, and one day he found himself kneeling in a church that looked exactly like his dream, and that proved to him that Jesus was God and Christianity was the truth, would you believe him just because he seemed honest and didn't seem to have a reason to lie?  Seems like the same sign from God to some Christians... and there have been plenty of people who have had such experiences.

Fester, your point of view is not clear.

You are starting to talk like a creationist.....
Why can't you just say: Could be an aspect of the brain where science has no idea about it. Maybe we can explain this in a couple of years, but not now. (If he's speaking the truth)
There's no shame in saying this. It gets weird when you try to get your way out by making up all sort of scenario's....

[fester30]

Fester, your point of view is not clear.

You are starting to talk like a creationist.....
Why can't you just say: Could be an aspect of the brain where science has no idea about it. Maybe we can explain this in a couple of years, but not now. (If he's speaking the truth)
There's no shame in saying this. It gets weird when you try to get your way out by making up all sort of scenario's....

Well I apologize I can't think of a way to be more clear with my point.  I could just say that there's some aspect of the brain or whatever.  Instead, what I chose to do is present you with comparable possibilities to show that his supposed experiences are as crazy to me and other non-Muslims as the scenerios I outlined would be to you.  My point is I think you are so quick to believe him because you are a Muslim, and his alleged experiences support your ideology.  If he was speaking of dreams coming true and such that supported other ideologies, such as Christianity, Hinduism, or even the Roman or Greek mythologies, I doubt you'd be so quick to lend credence to his stories.

I don't know... is there any way I can better explain this?

Besides, I did outline that there are aspects of the brain that science DOES have an idea about... that psychology has shown happen (filling in details of memory after the fact).  We see this all the time in witness testimony of crime scenes (or even of the plane going into the Pentagon on 9/11).  People fill in missing segments of memory even when they don't realize they are doing it.

http://truthinjustice.org/false-memory.htm

[Davin]

Or can you add a third?

How did science verify that he had the dreams?

How the dreams happened might be very important in describing what happened and how it happened.

Science was not there, when it happened, as I said before.

Then why are you asking if science can explain it if there is nothing for science to examine?

[iSok]

Well I apologize I can't think of a way to be more clear with my point.  I could just say that there's some aspect of the brain or whatever.  Instead, what I chose to do is present you with comparable possibilities to show that his supposed experiences are as crazy to me and other non-Muslims as the scenerios I outlined would be to you.  My point is I think you are so quick to believe him because you are a Muslim, and his alleged experiences support your ideology.  If he was speaking of dreams coming true and such that supported other ideologies, such as Christianity, Hinduism, or even the Roman or Greek mythologies, I doubt you'd be so quick to lend credence to his stories.

I would still believe him. I don't think God would allow everyone to be a Hindu, a Christian or a Muslim.
Diversity is what makes us human. Maybe God's vision is to see us a human beings cooperating, no matter our faith?

I see truth in Islam, a christian might see truth in christianity.
But I will still debate him about his beliefs, and he will debate me. It is what makes me a Muslim and it's what makes him a Christian.

Qur'an [49:13] - "Human beings, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

I don't know... is there any way I can better explain this?

Besides, I did outline that there are aspects of the brain that science DOES have an idea about... that psychology has shown happen (filling in details of memory after the fact).  We see this all the time in witness testimony of crime scenes (or even of the plane going into the Pentagon on 9/11).  People fill in missing segments of memory even when they don't realize they are doing it.

http://truthinjustice.org/false-memory.htm

I am aware of this Fester, and might be an explanation, but it's only guessing.
Psychology today is not really advanced, we don't know how the brain works.
My uncle is an M.D. and he told me that patients who suffer from psychological problems usually are pumped with different medecines...till one of the prescription actually works.
So psychology is a lot of guess-work.

Nonetheless, I find his dream amazing.

[JoeBobSmith]

 

[The Magic Pudding]

YOU GUYS HAVE DERAILED MY TOPIC SO F-ING BAD :angel3:  :angel3:  :angel3:  :angel3:  :angel3:  :angel3:  :angel3:

[fester30]

fester, I was speaking of near death as in almost being killed not losing consciousness

YOU GUYS HAVE DERAILED MY TOPIC SO F-ING BAD

Do you mean like I was driving the other day and some semi truck almost t-boned my car?  Normally when people talk about near death experiences, they mean that they lost consciousness, and even did not have a pulse for several seconds to several minutes, and saw some sort of vision while they were "dead."

[DirtyLeo]

But, if I watch his interviews, his way of talking. He seems to be a honest person

Once I watched a TV show about serial killers. Believe me, some of them didn't look like they were cold blooded murderers.
Good salespeople seem always honest but they can sell you something that you don't need at all without much remorse.

So, I wouldn't qualify "seeming to be something" as a helpful fact, especially if you are already predisposed to believe in what you're told.

I bet if I find you someone who tells a very similar story about aliens or about Atlantis, you wouldn't be so quick to believe in his/her claims (which are, by the way, much more likely to exist).

Edit: ...oops!.. sorry if I'm contributing to an off topic subject...