UFOs and the bible

[The Magic Pudding]

Simple life? Maybe...but this is still hoping for a secondary prize.  I'll deal with this matter of hope/hypothesis when I get back from work this evening.

Hope? Who's hoping?  
Who was that recent theist who based their arguments on weird definitions and who is no longer with us?
Hope I don't burn the toast, ahhh!  I'm a Toastafarian!

[Melmoth]

AreEl, could you define 'hard evidence'? As others have already said (i think?) the sheer volume of the universe is evidence in itself, for it renders the probability of life occuring elsewhere very great. That's how all evidence works: by increasing or decreasing the probability of things. Ie. finding X's fingerprints on a murder weapon increases the probability of X being the murderer.

The dictionary definition of ''evidence'' is what I go by. The size of the universe is not evidence for ET life; at best, it is only evidence for...size. Here's an analogy: in a lottery, there is only one winner whether there are 5000 entries or 5-zillion entries. There may be 5 winning tickets among all the entries and each ticket will have the same winning number. The ''winning number'' - life in this analogy - may have something to do with the number of entries but many other factors are involved.

When I go into google and search 'define:evidence', this is what I get: "your basis for belief or disbelief; knowledge on which to base belief." So this is what I'll continue with, for now.

Not sure I follow your analogy. Perhaps because I don't know how lotteries work, having never done one! .

The rest of your paragraph shows signs of nihilism

Showing 'signs', like some sort of decadent neurosis. I like that idea. But you don't have to be a nihilist to see that your fundamental bases for belief in anything might be wrong - you just have to be conscious of your own fallibility.

[The Magic Pudding]

number'' - life in this analogy - may have something to do with the number of entries but many other factors are involved.

Not sure I follow your analogy. Perhaps because I don't know how lotteries work, having never done one! [/quote]

Lotteries, I think numbered tickets are sold and one number is picked, one winner.
Lotto, or whatever you call it locally, numbered balls are chosen at random and more than one winner is possible.
Lotto is blasphemous, god looks unfavourably on any who partake of this ungodly gamble.

[fester30]

number'' - life in this analogy - may have something to do with the number of entries but many other factors are involved.

Not sure I follow your analogy. Perhaps because I don't know how lotteries work, having never done one!

Lotteries, I think numbered tickets are sold and one number is picked, one winner.
Lotto, or whatever you call it locally, numbered balls are chosen at random and more than one winner is possible.
Lotto is blasphemous, god looks unfavourably on any who partake of this ungodly gamble.[/quote]

We have "charitable bingo" at the churches down here in the Bible Belt.  They don't seem to think that counts as gambling.

[The Magic Pudding]

We have "charitable bingo" at the churches down here in the Bible Belt.  They don't seem to think that counts as gambling.

Well we'd have to look at the bingo cards and see if more than one winner is possible, this would show if retribution is warranted.

[Davin]

It is not a leap of faith to recognise the possibility or likelihood of life occurring elsewhere. It would be leap of faith if one said there was (or wasn't), but not so long as one is only accepting that there is a possibility. Accepting a possibility means one is open to there both being life elsewhere and not being elsewhere.

Hmmm...the part about your sentence that bugs me is in italics, above. I'm fine with the possibility of ET life but when you say ''likelihood'' you are expressing hope. Hope is evidence of[...]

Back it up a little bit: how is saying "or likelihood" expressing hope?

Please refrain from insulting people, especially in the Laid Back Lounge.

I didn't insult The Magic Pudding. I'm sorry you took it that way. I meant the comment you quoted as a compliment. If he feels insulted, he need only contact me and I'll apologize.

I'm not an admin, you don't need to defend yourself against me, I was simply asking politely for you to stop insulting people, especially in the Laid Back Lounge.

*exosolar planets are not evidence of ET life. They are evidence of exosolar planets.

My citations of extrasolar planets was not evidence for extrasolar life, they were used to demonstrate that you were incorrect to say that, "The universe is very very big, with lots and lots of stars that often have planetary systems not unlike our own." was a faith based statement, because there is evidence to support that statement.

The dictionary definition of ''evidence'' is what I go by. The size of the universe is not evidence for ET life; at best, it is only evidence for...size. Here's an analogy: in a lottery, there is only one winner whether there are 5000 entries or 5-zillion entries. There may be 5 winning tickets among all the entries and each ticket will have the same winning number. The ''winning number'' - life in this analogy - may have something to do with the number of entries but many other factors are involved.

"There is only one winner" and "There may be 5 winning tickets" are contradictory statements in your analogy. Also the analogy implies that there is only one way life can come about, because we don't know that our planet is the only way for life to come about, this is a baseless assumption.

[fester30]

So... yeah... ArEl, does this mean I can mark you down for a big fat negatory on the UFOs in the Bible thing?

[xSilverPhinx]

The odds are high for simple life, but stacked against us of finding intelligent life out there. Don't confuse the two.

Simple life? Maybe...but this is still hoping for a secondary prize.  I'll deal with this matter of hope/hypothesis when I get back from work this evening.

Secondary prize? Are you mad?  :|

[xSilverPhinx]

The dictionary definition of ''evidence'' is what I go by. The size of the universe is not evidence for ET life; at best, it is only evidence for...size. Here's an analogy: in a lottery, there is only one winner whether there are 5000 entries or 5-zillion entries. There may be 5 winning tickets among all the entries and each ticket will have the same winning number. The ''winning number'' - life in this analogy - may have something to do with the number of entries but many other factors are involved.

Not sure I follow your analogy. Perhaps because I don't know how lotteries work, having never done one! .

Why only one winner? Do you know about enough about life to know that it can only happen one way? What is life, AreEl?

I think AreEl is confused, so I'll rephrase: nobody here is saying they have evidence for aliens (I doubt he applies that same definition of 'evidence' to his theistic beliefs). No one is saying that the universe is huge therefore...aliens exist. What we're all saying is that given enough room, the odds of something like Earth happening elsewhere is increased.

[AreEl]

Comments:

My description of the idea of alien life is without question science fiction. But this belief is based on what I think is the reality of the origin of life-forms on earth, so it makes perfect sense for me to come to the conclusion that the same thing might happen anywhere else in the universe. This is definitely all speculation, but it is derived from what I know of science, and scientific evidence is the only truth I know.

Fair enough. I can live with that.

you don't have to be a nihilist to see that your fundamental bases for belief in anything might be wrong - you just have to be conscious of your own fallibility.

Excellent observation!

"There is only one winner" and "There may be 5 winning tickets" are contradictory statements in your analogy. Also the analogy implies that there is only one way life can come about, because we don't know that our planet is the only way for life to come about, this is a baseless assumption.

You are right! my wording wasn't clear. Here is my rephrase: ''There is only one winning set of numbers. There may be five winning tickets.''  On your second sentence (which I've quoted in italics), you are also right. I had not considered that life may come about differently elsewhere. This, however, is pure speculation; but for the purposes of this discussion, you do have a point.

So... yeah... ArEl, does this mean I can mark you down for a big fat negatory on the UFOs in the Bible thing?

   There are UFOs in the Bible? The Raelians believe there are UFOs recorded there (as do others). This is what you get for reading stuff into something: stupid.

What is life, AreEl?

Get a dictionary and look it up. Whenever you are uncertain about something, consult a reference. If you ever wonder what I mean by a word, look it up in a dictionary.

+++

As for my promise to get back to this discussion with an explanation of Hope & Hypothesis as it pertains to ET life, this is more complex than I first imagined. I don't know where to start. I need more time.

[xSilverPhinx]

What is life, AreEl?

Get a dictionary and look it up. Whenever you are uncertain about something, consult a reference. If you ever wonder what I mean by a word, look it up in a dictionary.

Damn, that was almost as unsatisfactory as 'something god gave us'. If I wanted a shallow answer, I would've consulted a dictionary. Seems I took the shortcut and asked you to define what you thought it was *eyeroll*.

[The Magic Pudding]

What is life, AreEl?

Get a dictionary and look it up. Whenever you are uncertain about something, consult a reference. If you ever wonder what I mean by a word, look it up in a dictionary.

Damn, that was almost as unsatisfactory as 'something god gave us'. If I wanted a shallow answer, I would've consulted a dictionary. Seems I took the shortcut and asked you to define what you thought it was *eyeroll*.

Don't consult a dictionary with more that one definition though, they can't be trusted.

[xSilverPhinx]

Don't consult a dictionary with more that one definition though, they can't be trusted.

Right...where do I get a dictionary that looks like it came out of Orwell's book 1984 ? In very simple Newspeak, please.  

[AreEl]

What is life, AreEl?

Get a dictionary and look it up. Whenever you are uncertain about something, consult a reference. If you ever wonder what I mean by a word, look it up in a dictionary.

Damn, that was almost as unsatisfactory as 'something god gave us'. If I wanted a shallow answer, I would've consulted a dictionary. Seems I took the shortcut and asked you to define what you thought it was *eyeroll*.

Don't consult a dictionary with more that one definition though, they can't be trusted.

I just looked up ''Life'' in my dictionary and the definition is exaustive. A dictionary is a basic tool, like a screwdriver. If you don't own one, that tells me somethings about you.

[Melmoth]

I just looked up ''Life'' in my dictionary and the definition is exaustive. A dictionary is a basic tool, like a screwdriver. If you don't own one, that tells me somethings about you.

perhaps your dictionary is different. Mine says:

life n. (pl. lives) 1 the condition of being alive and able to grow, breathe and reproduce. 2 the existence of an individual human being or animal 3 a particuler type or aspect of people's existence (eg. school life) 4 living things and their activity 5 the period during which something continues to exist, function or be valid. 6 vitality or energy. 7 informal, a sentence of imprisonment for life.

Of those, the only ones that are relevant to the question are 1 and possibly 4, and they don't really answer it. Going by what 1 alleges, for instance, fire is alive. Fire grows, breathes, consumes, multiplies and dies. And thus, the existence of ET life was proven by the Oxford English Dictionary, and a man pointing at the sun.

Jesting aside, dictionaries may be simple tools (veeery simple) but words themselves are not. Hence the problem with dictionaries. They're utterly shallow, loose and subjective. Useless for this kind of conversation. Your definition of life, going by the way you use it, is clearly more sophisticated than the ones listed above.