Mere Christianity

[LegendarySandwich]

It leaves off option 4 that Jesus was neither a lord, liar or lunatic but that the story in general is a tall tale.

Tall tale, yet then why does everyone seem to think this name as worthy of exclamation?
Why are we not using expressions such as;

• "I swear to the Great Spaghetti Monster"!
• "Oh Spaghetti Monster"
• "Spaghetti Monster damn it!"
• "Oh for Flying Pink Unicorn's sake!"
• "Oh for Cinderella's Sake!"
• "Snow White damn it!"
• "I swear to The Big Bad Wolf!"

Those are all tales, for sure.  What makes "Christ/God" a better swear word or exclamation?  Where's the logic in this?

Sorry, I was mistaken early. This is the worst argument for Jesus's divinity that I've ever heard.

I don't mean to disappoint you, AnimatedDirt, but common vernacular isn't based off of logic. What you're asking here is the same as asking "Why do people say 'I could care less', when they really mean the opposite? Where's the logic in this?"

[Tank]

It leaves off option 4 that Jesus was neither a lord, liar or lunatic but that the story in general is a tall tale.

Tall tale, yet then why does everyone seem to think this name as worthy of exclamation?
Why are we not using expressions such as;

• "I swear to the Great Spaghetti Monster"!
• "Oh Spaghetti Monster"
• "Spaghetti Monster damn it!"
• "Oh for Flying Pink Unicorn's sake!"
• "Oh for Cinderella's Sake!"
• "Snow White damn it!"
• "I swear to The Big Bad Wolf!"

Those are all tales, for sure.  What makes "Christ/God" a better swear word or exclamation?  Where's the logic in this?

Sorry, I was mistaken early. This is the worst argument for Jesus's divinity that I've ever heard.

I don't mean to disappoint you, AnimatedDirt, but common vernacular isn't based off of logic. What you're asking here is the same as asking "Why do people say 'I could care less', when they really mean the opposite? Where's the logic in this?"

[geek] in the UK we say 'I couldn't care less'.

[AnimatedDirt]

First off, as Whitney said, for the argument to work at all it presumes that Jesus did, in fact, exist, and the modern Gospels we have are correct when they say he said he was the son of God. Both of these assumptions are heavily debatable.

Interesting.  (my emphasis)

Second, it's far too simplistic in its reasoning. For example, maybe he was deliberately lying when he said he was the son of God -- does this necessarily disqualify him from being a great moral teacher?

Therein lies the point of lunatic, liar, God.

If this is true, he's only human. Everyone makes mistakes and slips up sometimes. Also, maybe he was a bit crazy, and was deluded into thinking he was the son of God -- so? Does him being a bit of a whacko disqualify him from being a great moral teacher? Et al.

You tell me.  What would you think of a person claiming as such to you today?  

Third (and this one ties into the other two), it ignores Occam's Razor. Which one of these hypotheses is preferable -- that Jesus existed and was the son of God, or that Jesus either didn't exist, or if he did, he was just a man?

Whitney says it's a "tall tale".  This suggests on par with Snow White, King Arthur...yet none of us would swear by either.  To do so would be comedic.  It wouldn't seem hardly serious.  Think of it.  Next time you are seriously angry, try yelling out, "SNOW WHITE!!"
See if that doesn't bring a smile to your face or laughter to those that might be around you.

[AnimatedDirt]

Sorry, I was mistaken early. This is the worst argument for Jesus's divinity that I've ever heard.

I don't mean to disappoint you, AnimatedDirt, but common vernacular isn't based off of logic. What you're asking here is the same as asking "Why do people say 'I could care less', when they really mean the opposite? Where's the logic in this?"

That's because in your ignorance you don't know the correct words in this expression.

Thank you Tank for clearing it up for him.

[LegendarySandwich]

First off, as Whitney said, for the argument to work at all it presumes that Jesus did, in fact, exist, and the modern Gospels we have are correct when they say he said he was the son of God. Both of these assumptions are heavily debatable.

Interesting.  (my emphasis)

...I guess?

Second, it's far too simplistic in its reasoning. For example, maybe he was deliberately lying when he said he was the son of God -- does this necessarily disqualify him from being a great moral teacher?

Therein lies the point of lunatic, liar, God.[/quote]
The Lord, Lunatic, Liar argument argues that Jesus could not have been a great moral teacher if he wasn't the son of God. I'm saying that yes, he could have. Unlike what many Christians believe (cough cough Ray Comfort cough cough), the world is not black and white. Doing one bad deed does not make you a bad person.

If this is true, he's only human. Everyone makes mistakes and slips up sometimes. Also, maybe he was a bit crazy, and was deluded into thinking he was the son of God -- so? Does him being a bit of a whacko disqualify him from being a great moral teacher? Et al.

You tell me.  What would you think of a person claiming as such to you today?

It depends on the person.

Third (and this one ties into the other two), it ignores Occam's Razor. Which one of these hypotheses is preferable -- that Jesus existed and was the son of God, or that Jesus either didn't exist, or if he did, he was just a man?

Whitney says it's a "tall tale".  This suggests on par with Snow White, King Arthur...yet none of us would swear by either.  To do so would be comedic.  It wouldn't seem hardly serious.  Think of it.  Next time you are seriously angry, try yelling out, "SNOW WHITE!!"
See if that doesn't bring a smile to your face or laughter to those that might be around you.

Let's bring out Occam's Razor again. Your hypothesis is that we say "Oh my God!" and "Goddammit" because Jesus was the son of God. A competing hypothesis says that we say those things because of how language evolves.

Hm. I don't know, they both seem so reasonable.

[LegendarySandwich]

That's because in your ignorance you don't know the correct words in this expression.

Thank you Tank for clearing it up for him.

I've heard people say "I could care less" before, when they meant "I couldn't care less". It's a common error, at least here in the US.

Please, please, stop saying I'm ignorant when you're the one that is.

[Whitney]

Whitney says it's a "tall tale".  This suggests on par with Snow White, King Arthur...yet none of us would swear by either.  To do so would be comedic.  It wouldn't seem hardly serious.  Think of it.  Next time you are seriously angry, try yelling out, "SNOW WHITE!!"
See if that doesn't bring a smile to your face or laughter to those that might be around you.

A tall tale is a story that keeps getting information added to it till it is no longer true....kinda like when someone comes back from fishing and claims they caught the biggest fish ever (when they really just caught a somewhat not small fish).  As far as I'm aware Snow White and King Arthur are pure fairy tales, and I wasn't meaning to imply that the Bible is a fairy tale.

So, in saying the Christ story could be a tall tale I'm saying that perhaps there was a guy named Jesus who went about preaching (the possibility of this is actually quite high given the commonality of the  name and of self proclaimed prophets at the time) and had some followers.  Yet later when people started trying to write about him (it took about 50 years for the first recorded record of Jesus to be put to paper) they misremembered, elaborated just a bit (as was common with stories passed along by oral tradition), accidentally took some of his stories as true rather than allegorical teaching tools etc...before you know it they are writing about the song of God who did all sorts of miraculous things.

[AnimatedDirt]

The Lord, Lunatic, Liar argument argues that Jesus could not have been a great moral teacher if he wasn't the son of God. I'm saying that yes, he could have. Unlike what many Christians believe (cough cough Ray Comfort cough cough), the world is not black and white. Doing one bad deed does not make you a bad person.

Not the argument at all.  The argument is that IF THERE IS NO GOD, then Christ is a Lunatic and a Liar.  The argument is then, HOW CAN ANYONE place this lunatic's thoughts as anything other than thoughts of craziness and LIES!  Either He is Lord or He's a crazy person.  Full Stop!

You miss the whole point, I see.

[AnimatedDirt]

I've heard people say "I could care less" before, when they meant "I couldn't care less". It's a common error, at least here in the US.

Please, please, stop saying I'm ignorant when you're the one that is.

I accept I was wrong in saying your ignorant on this if that's what you meant, I apologize for this
...but now we are left with you doing the same.

[AnimatedDirt]

A tall tale is a story that keeps getting information added to it till it is no longer true....kinda like when someone comes back from fishing and claims they caught the biggest fish ever (when they really just caught a somewhat not small fish).  As far as I'm aware Snow White and King Arthur are pure fairy tales, and I wasn't meaning to imply that the Bible is a fairy tale.

So, in saying the Christ story could be a tall tale I'm saying that perhaps there was a guy named Jesus who went about preaching (the possibility of this is actually quite high given the commonality of the  name and of self proclaimed prophets at the time) and had some followers.  Yet later when people started trying to write about him (it took about 50 years for the first recorded record of Jesus to be put to paper) they misremembered, elaborated just a bit (as was common with stories passed along by oral tradition), accidentally took some of his stories as true rather than allegorical teaching tools etc...before you know it they are writing about the song of God who did all sorts of miraculous things.

And the OT writings that pointed to this man?  The multitude of prophecies of the Messiah?  

(the possibility of this is actually quite high given the commonality of the  name and of self proclaimed prophets at the time)

And the multitude of people in history with this name, specifically, Jesus the Christ.  I don't know of any historical figures that even went solely by "Jesus".  Only in our contemporary times do we see this, and mostly only in Latin America.

[LegendarySandwich]

The Lord, Lunatic, Liar argument argues that Jesus could not have been a great moral teacher if he wasn't the son of God. I'm saying that yes, he could have. Unlike what many Christians believe (cough cough Ray Comfort cough cough), the world is not black and white. Doing one bad deed does not make you a bad person.

Not the argument at all.  The argument is that IF THERE IS NO GOD, then Christ is a Lunatic and a Liar.  The argument is then, HOW CAN ANYONE place this lunatic's thoughts as anything other than thoughts of craziness and LIES!  Either He is Lord or He's a crazy person.  Full Stop!

You miss the whole point, I see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_ ... ormulation

Lewis argues that these claims logically exclude the possibility that Jesus was merely "a great moral teacher" because he believes that no one making such claims could possibly be rationally or morally reliable, unless he were God. Elsewhere, Lewis refers to this argument as "the aut Deus aut malus homo" ("either God or a bad man"),[11] a reference to an earlier version of the argument used by Henry Parry Liddon in his 1866 Bampton Lectures in which he argued for the divinity of Jesus based on a number of grounds, including the claims he believed Jesus made.[12]

I think it's rather useless to call someone a great moral teacher, anyways. We should evaluate each of Jesus' supposed statements individually, not just reject or accept them as a whole because of who he is.

[Whitney]

And the OT writings that pointed to this man?  The multitude of prophecies of the Messiah?

Perhaps someone at some point thought it would be a good idea to claim he was the Messiah because they liked his message and wanted it to spread.

My main point is that we don't have to assume Jesus was a Liar or Lunatic in order to not accept him as Lord.

[LegendarySandwich]

I've heard people say "I could care less" before, when they meant "I couldn't care less". It's a common error, at least here in the US.

Please, please, stop saying I'm ignorant when you're the one that is.

I accept I was wrong in saying your ignorant on this if that's what you meant, I apologize for this
...but now we are left with you doing the same.

I'm just tired of your crap.

[LegendarySandwich]

And the OT writings that pointed to this man?  The multitude of prophecies of the Messiah?  

That's why I think it's likely that the whole story of Jesus was made up from the beginning.

[AnimatedDirt]

I'm just tired of your crap.

That's why I think it's likely that the whole story of Jesus was made up from the beginning.

My "crap"?  Be specific.

From the beginning of what?