Horrors of the Old Testament

[Ken2468]

Hi Everyone.

I'm new here so I'm probably covering old ground, but I felt the need to join a community engaged in respectful discussion and indicate just how horrific I think the Old Testament is (which of course, all three monotheistic religions call their own). The repeated instances of Slavery, Mass Murder, Polygamy, and Mistreatment of Women in which Yahweh / God The Father / Allah either did not condemn (or actually commanded / provided instructions for) is nothing short of appalling.

I have studied the old testament and have plenty of chapter and verse quotes from those books which can be used in discussions with theists asking them to explain how the behaviour of this monster is in any way moral.

[Recusant]

Hi Everyone...

I have studied the old testament and have plenty of chapter and verse quotes from those books which can be used in discussions with theists asking them to explain how the behaviour of this monster is in any way moral.

Hello and welcome to HAF, Ken2468.

  I think that you're correct in viewing the actions of YHVH as described in the Old Testament as the actions of a monster.  However, Christians have a pat answer, usually along the lines of "God's ways are not our ways" (Isaiah 55:8-11).  They will also say that they are followers of Jesus, who they will tell you preached love, not hate, and that the New Testament basically supersedes the Old.

(Edited to delete redundant phrase.)

[lundberg500]

But Jesus said that he did not come to change the Old Testament laws at all:

Mark 7:10 "For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death":

Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled".

Matthew 15:4 "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death".

Luke 16:17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail".

In fact, Jesus even promised to carry on the brutality of the Old Testament:

Matthew 10:34 “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”

Luke 22:36 “Then Jesus said unto them, He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.”

[The Magic Pudding]

Hi Everyone.

I'm new here so I'm probably covering old ground, but I felt the need to join a community engaged in respectful discussion and indicate just how horrific I think the Old Testament is

I like going over old ground, it's so weird.
The brick testament is fun. http://www.thebricktestament.com/king_david/index.html


Anyway hello Ken 2 4 6 8 don't like god, who do you appreciate?
Sorry I'll go stand in the corner.

[Ken2468]

Hello and welcome to HAF, Ken2468.

I think that you're correct in viewing the actions of YHVH as described in the Old Testament as the actions of a monster.  However, Christians have a pat answer, usually along the lines of "God's ways are not our ways" (Isaiah 55:8-11).  They will also say that they are followers of Jesus, who they will tell you preached love, not hate, and that the New Testament basically supersedes the Old.

(Edited to delete redundant phrase.)[/quote]

I think the Christian "answers" are ridiculous on their face.

So is their God The Father saying "do as I say, not as I do" (Isaiah 55:8-11)? This is the unquestioned lemming-like activity that can be found in many totalitiarian states: Our God may mass murder other tribes who were unfortunate enough to not be among his Chosen People, he may lay out rules regarding our keeping slaves, he may instruct which men get which wives (with no say from the women), he may permit polygamy and concubines, etc., but hey, we just follow what he says because we are too ignorant to figure out if any of these declarations from God are moral. Certainly we should have more self-respect than that.

Further, it appears that God's ways ARE the Hebrews ways: God commands. Hebrews follow said commands and are doing what God instructs them to do, so how exactly are the Hebrews' ways not God's ways....? Isaiah 55:8-11 is just one among many inconsistent passages one would expect to find in books written by fallible human beings trying to establish a cult like Judaism.

Re. Jesus: Are Christians telling us that God the Father (an alleged "omniscient" being) got all those things wrong in the Old Testament and Jesus had to come and correct his mistakes? How unfortunate for those generations of Non-Jews living in the Old Testament to experience such horrors because they happened to live in a time before Jesus when his Father was out of his mind. Also, like the previous poster pointed out, Jesus himself said he did not come to change the Law of the Old Testament (Mark 5:17-20) and it remains in force. Also, we find in 1 Samuel 15:29 that God does not change his mind, so if Jesus was preaching something other than what God said / did in the Old Testament, there must have been a family squabble between these two omniscient beings that supposedly comprise two-thirds of the Holy Trinity.

[Stevil]

Hi Everyone.

I'm new here so I'm probably covering old ground, but I felt the need to join a community engaged in respectful discussion and indicate just how horrific I think the Old Testament is (which of course, all three monotheistic religions call their own). The repeated instances of Slavery, Mass Murder, Polygamy, and Mistreatment of Women in which Yahweh / God The Father / Allah either did not condemn (or actually commanded / provided instructions for) is nothing short of appalling.

I have studied the old testament and have plenty of chapter and verse quotes from those books which can be used in discussions with theists asking them to explain how the behaviour of this monster is in any way moral.

I don't have any issues with Polygamy. How mature and of sound mind adults choose to live their lives is of no concern to me as long as they are not hurting anyone.

[LegendarySandwich]

Hi Everyone.

I'm new here so I'm probably covering old ground, but I felt the need to join a community engaged in respectful discussion and indicate just how horrific I think the Old Testament is (which of course, all three monotheistic religions call their own). The repeated instances of Slavery, Mass Murder, Polygamy, and Mistreatment of Women in which Yahweh / God The Father / Allah either did not condemn (or actually commanded / provided instructions for) is nothing short of appalling.

I have studied the old testament and have plenty of chapter and verse quotes from those books which can be used in discussions with theists asking them to explain how the behaviour of this monster is in any way moral.

I don't have any issues with Polygamy. How mature and of sound mind adults choose to live their lives is of no concern to me as long as they are not hurting anyone.

Yeah, I'm not sure why you chose to include polygamy in your list of evils. What's wrong with people who choose to have more than one lover? How does that compare in any way at all to slavery, mass murder, and misogyny?

[Ken2468]

I agree polygamy is not on the same level as mass murder / slavery / mistreatment of women. I added it to my list because many Jews / Christians believe polygamy is a sin (except maybe some Mormons...?), so they have some explaining to do re. all the instances it occurs in the Old Testament without a peep from God.

[LegendarySandwich]

I agree polygamy is not on the same level as mass murder / slavery / mistreatment of women.
...Why is it on any level at all?

I added it to my list because many Jews / Christians believe polygamy is a sin (except maybe some Mormons...?), so they have some explaining to do re. all the instances it occurs in the Old Testament without a peep from God.

"It was a different time", "God's ways are mysterious", etc.

[Davin]

I agree polygamy is not on the same level as mass murder / slavery / mistreatment of women. I added it to my list because many Jews / Christians believe polygamy is a sin (except maybe some Mormons...?), so they have some explaining to do re. all the instances it occurs in the Old Testament without a peep from God.

The popular sect of Mormons do not practice polygamy, however there was a sect that split off from the Mormons who still support it. They split off at the time that the church stop supporting polygamy. While followers of this the other sect are still referred to as Mormons, and they even see themselves as the true version of the religion started by Joseph Smith, they are not the same sect. Even their Book of Mormon is different now with the revisions of it going in different directions. The names are slight different with the larger more popular one that stopped the practice of polygamy in like the 1890's the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" vs. one less popular that still supports polygamy the "Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

This is not to be confused with the sect that split off after Joseph Smith was assassinated that never supported plural marriages who called themselves the "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" later renamed to the "Community of Christ". Just FYI when talking about Mormons being polygamists it's not fair to lump them all together, especially when lumping a very large group with the practices of a far smaller group.