Army Says Atheists Unfit to Serve

[terranus]

Well, the good news is that this "spirituality test" isn't in all the services. I'm in the Air Force, and have yet to be subjected to such a test. The army is slightly retarded however. Doesn't really surprise me all that much they would include something like this in their troop evaluation procedures.

As far as SSgt whatshisname being labeled as unfit to serve goes - I'm sure its just a computer glitch.  

[Stevil]

If I had to choose, I'd rather have an atheist with me in battle...

Why's that joe?

1) I'd rather have someone actually doing something, rather than praying for something to happen.

2) It's possible that without any type of afterlife, the desire to survive may be stronger.

3) Time spent reading the bible could have been spent at target practice (ok, maybe)

Take it with a grain of salt, as it's just my random thoughts, with no real evidence behind it...

Thanks for the response Joe, i'd disagree with you, but not being a theist it is speculation on my behalf.
1. I would suggest that theists likely pray during quiet times rather than when action is required
2. I have no idea how much a theist values the current life they have on earth
3. Not likely to have been the opportunity cost, but possibly. Depends just how much time is spent reading/studying the bible, it is possible that this could be quite significant.

[The Magic Pudding]

There are very good reasons we believers don't want atheists on the team.
Under threat of immanent death the atheist often gets uncontrollably nervous.
Me, I've had to take a few out to stop 'em causen a ruckus.
Belief gives the warrior strength, every good leader knows that.
And the belief is best not placed in those on earth,
cause they always show themselves as unworthy.
As for smarts, cat level thinken has it's uses, but mostly we want dogs.

[LegendarySandwich]

This may be why there are no atheists in foxholes. I think as a whole, theists are generally more likely to place more value on authority and following orders.

List of atheists in foxholes:

http://www.maaf.info/expaif.html

Those aren't true atheists. A true atheist wouldn't be in a foxhole.

[Voter]

In general, atheists I've met tend to be smarter than the religious people by a fair margin. Smarts in modern warfare is no bad thing. Additionally, an atheist is more likely to value his life some more than someone who believes some deity will give him virgins or a place on a golden street or the like after death, potentially leading to fewer unnecessary risks taken.

Joining a volunteer army is itself a huge unnecessary risk, so I think you're wrong on their smarts and/or the value they place on self preservation.

[AnimatedDirt]

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Anyone that follows this thinking is the person I want next to me in a foxhole.

To me, IMHO, a true Atheist would not want to take many risks with his/her life "knowing" if they die, they are GONE with no hope.  I could be wrong.  It's just my opinion.  The Christian, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily hope for death, but "knows" his/her death is not the end.  There is hope.

I rest my case.  

[LegendarySandwich]

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Anyone that follows this thinking is the person I want next to me in a foxhole.

To me, IMHO, a true Atheist would not want to take many risks with his/her life "knowing" if they die, they are GONE with no hope.  I could be wrong.  It's just my opinion.  The Christian, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily hope for death, but "knows" his/her death is not the end.  There is hope.

I rest my case.  

Just because a person believes in the Bible doesn't mean they follow its teachings. In fact, I would almost go as far as to say that they have barely any correlation at all.

But even if we look past that, I generally value self-preservation over the willingness to die because someone told you.

[AnimatedDirt]

Just because a person believes in the Bible doesn't mean they follow its teachings. In fact, I would almost go as far as to say that they have barely any correlation at all.

Notice I did not say belief in the Bible...simply a text from the Bible that conveys the point.

But even if we look past that, I generally value self-preservation over the willingness to die because someone told you.

Wouldn't this, then, make my point?  If you value self-preservation, chances are you wont take a chance and remain in the foxhole with me as ordered.  You seem to suggest you wouldn't die "because someone told you" to.  So then, I would rather a person be of the mindset that life is precious, but not the end of all.

By the sacrifice of self, the shedding of blood, you have freedom.  No?  Where would the U.S. be if everyone had the {apparent) mindset of the Atheist and of self-preservation above the good of man and country?

[elliebean]

The whole point of going into a foxhole is to not die. The living make much better fighters than the dead, IMO.

[LegendarySandwich]

Just because a person believes in the Bible doesn't mean they follow its teachings. In fact, I would almost go as far as to say that they have barely any correlation at all.

Notice I did not say belief in the Bible...simply a text from the Bible that conveys the point.

It seems to me that you implied it, but, eh.

Wouldn't this, then, make my point?  If you value self-preservation, chances are you wont take a chance and remain in the foxhole with me as ordered.  You seem to suggest you wouldn't die "because someone told you" to.  So then, I would rather a person be of the mindset that life is precious, but not the end of all.

The fourth sentence in that paragraph seems to be a non sequitor when next to the first three.

By the sacrifice of self, the shedding of blood, you have freedom.  No?  Where would the U.S. be if everyone had the {apparent) mindset of the Atheist and of self-preservation above the good of man and country?

I believe in fighting, and possibly dying, for causes you believe in. What I do not believe in is doing something simply because an authority figure commands you to. This is the main problem I have with all militaries.

The follower mindset does seem to be necessary, though. We can't all be leaders; or can we? Maybe we can, although it would be difficult to get enough to fight unanimously for a cause.

[Sophus]

Joining a volunteer army is itself a huge unnecessary risk, so I think you're wrong on their smarts and/or the value they place on self preservation.

Depends on the individual. Some really do enter with the juvenile "yeah, we gonna shoot some fuckers dead" mentality, and others have a more mature purpose for enlisting. Some don't even really want to be there at all but join out of a lack of options to continue their education.

[Tanker]

First off.

WHAT THE FUCK?
I never had any overt problems. When did this bullshit become ok?

Second off.

In general, atheists I've met tend to be smarter than the religious people by a fair margin. Smarts in modern warfare is no bad thing. Additionally, an atheist is more likely to value his life some more than someone who believes some deity will give him virgins or a place on a golden street or the like after death, potentially leading to fewer unnecessary risks taken.

Joining a volunteer army is itself a huge unnecessary risk, so I think you're wrong on their smarts and/or the value they place on self preservation.

Hi there. Did you know you can be smart and have a strong sense of duty, or get laid off and need a job, or have no way to turn those smarts into a degree ala the G.I Bil, or just be really into military culture, or have the required degree needed to become an officer, or pick a non combat MOS (about 90% are) that translate well into a civillian job, or be seeking a top secret clearence which can get you a 6 figure salary for a job you have no qualifications for but it can take 7 years for a civillian to get same clearence, or mabye you just like being paid to blow shit up. Just saying.


*edit* Dang it. I guess I could have just said "What Sofus said." and called it a post.

[Thumpalumpacus]

To me, IMHO, a true Atheist would not want to take many risks with his/her life "knowing" if they die, they are GONE with no hope.  I could be wrong.  It's just my opinion.  The Christian, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily hope for death, but "knows" his/her death is not the end.  There is hope.

I rest my case.  

You were in in the same years as I was.  What bases?  My PDS was Carswell, in Fort Worth.

This atheist risked his life regularly as an Air Force firefighter.  Now, it ain't combat, but it's pretty close, and I can say with confidence that when the shit hits the fan, you're not gonna be checking what's on the "rel pref" line on your dogtags.  You know who is trustworthy and who isn't, and faith or lackthereof doesn't come into the picture.

Also, it wasn't my experience at all that unquestioned obedience was expected or even desired, but I understand that my experience is only anecdotal.

[AnimatedDirt]

You were in in the same years as I was.  What bases?  My PDS was Carswell, in Fort Worth.

I was mostly at Hill AFB, UT as a 553xx, Engineering Asst.  Did a short tour at JTFB, Honduras.

[elliebean]

You were in in the same years as I was.  What bases?  My PDS was Carswell, in Fort Worth.

I was mostly at Hill AFB, UT as a 553xx, Engineering Asst.  Did a short tour at JTFB, Honduras.

I was on my way in as you guys were both on your way out. '93  to '97, Ground Radio Communications Specialist; Vandenberg AFB, Lompoc, CA.