God cannot exist...sue me!

[Achronos]

Very interesting post. I wish I was here sooner but since I wasn't I just going to slightly mess up you guys flow.

radicalaggrivation Please correct me if I am wrong but this is Epicurus's argument.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?  Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?  Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Yes, and it is still a valid argument that Christians cannot reconcile, try as they might.

God is willing that man should have free will. This creates the possibility for evil. Man can choose either God, and by choosing God do good, or man can choose to do evil. As God is Good, and the created order is good, by definition preventing evil is limiting the choice for man to just good, and thus just God. God is All-powerful, but God is also humble.  Indeed, we have the example of God the Word, begotten of the Father before all creation, who counted equality with the Father as His right; He emptied Himself, taking on the form and likeness of a man, condescending to be born of a Virgin, and chose service to His father over His birthright. He humbled Himself even further, so that He who could not know death knew Death, His humiliation going so far as being cursed by hanging on a cross.

Was He willing to prevent evil, and thus negate any choice man would make?  No, for that would not have been Love.  Instead He chose to overcome evil with Good.  He does not fit in any little a=b boxes we try to place Him in, rather He tells us He is neither a, nor b, nor even c, that a only equals b from our limited perception, and that c is greater than we could imagine.

No, evil comes from God.

Isaiah 45:7: "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things."
Lamentations 3:38: "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11: "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
Ezekiel 20:25,26: "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

The rest of your post was an attempt at futility when compared to the scripture above.

The first three verses you provide are old translations, from the Masoretic text no less. The Isaiah passage means something like "calamity", "storm", or "war"; the Lamentations quote should read: "For evil and good shall not proceed from the mouth of the Most High." (declarative, not interrogative); and Jeremiah should read as well "Calamities", "plagues", etc.  You might as well cite the 9 plagues on the house of Pharoah as some faith shattering proof.

Ezekiel 20:25,26 is no less than what the Lord told Israel would happen if they did not obey His commands all the way back in Exodus.  It's like having a dog that refuses to be trained against rolling in his crap but wants to be an inside dog.  After a while you just leave him outside to roll in his crap, if he likes it bad enough.

[LegendarySandwich]

Very interesting post. I wish I was here sooner but since I wasn't I just going to slightly mess up you guys flow.

radicalaggrivation Please correct me if I am wrong but this is Epicurus's argument.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?  Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?  Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Yes, and it is still a valid argument that Christians cannot reconcile, try as they might.

God is willing that man should have free will. This creates the possibility for evil. Man can choose either God, and by choosing God do good, or man can choose to do evil.

And who made this how it is? God did. He created logic, physics, etc. etc. Everything. He could have made things differently if he wanted to.

Christians never seem to take this into account. They always seem to assume that things would have to be relatively similar. They don't. God can do anything. He could have made anything. Things don't have to be the way they are.

[gsaint]

And who made this how it is? God did. He created logic, physics, etc. etc. Everything. He could have made things differently if he wanted to.

Christians never seem to take this into account. They always seem to assume that things would have to be relatively similar. They don't. God can do anything. He could have made anything. Things don't have to be the way they are.

God can and will make things differently. Still God knows all and He made a way so that we don't have to suffer the consequences of our actions.

No, evil comes from God.

Isaiah 45:7: "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things."
Lamentations 3:38: "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11: "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
Ezekiel 20:25,26: "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

My first question is do you even know what is going on in these chapters you took some sentences from? Do you know who wrote it and to whom and why? Are you quoting from something you don't understand and if you are do you think that is wise?

I don't really want to sit here and explain the meaning of every verse but I will explain just a little more about the word evil in these translations. The meaning of words in the Hebrew language are dependent on the words around it. So translating from ancient Hebrew to English is imperfect. Strong's Hebrew dictionary says ra' means-adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displeasure, distress (that is the simple definition)

God gave us free will, the ability of rational thought, and a significant amount of intelligence, yet he punishes us if we use traits and come to a conclusion he doesn't like. Sounds like a great guy, that Jesus.

Jesus suffered, died, and rose from the dead so that you don't have to suffer for your own actions. I think that sound like a really great guy. Like you said He gave you rational thought and intelligence to choose the right way so if you don't choose the right way who's fault is that.

[LegendarySandwich]

And who made this how it is? God did. He created logic, physics, etc. etc. Everything. He could have made things differently if he wanted to.

Christians never seem to take this into account. They always seem to assume that things would have to be relatively similar. They don't. God can do anything. He could have made anything. Things don't have to be the way they are.

God can and will make things differently. Still God knows all and He made a way so that we don't have to suffer the consequences of our actions.

Wow, that's really moral. "Hey, guess what! Murdered a little kid? It's okay! You don't have to suffer the consequences of your actions. Isn't that great? Isn't that just?"

No, evil comes from God.

Isaiah 45:7: "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things."
Lamentations 3:38: "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11: "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
Ezekiel 20:25,26: "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

My first question is do you even know what is going on in these chapters you took some sentences from? Do you know who wrote it and to whom and why? Are you quoting from something you don't understand and if you are do you think that is wise?

I don't really want to sit here and explain the meaning of every verse but I will explain just a little more about the word evil in these translations. The meaning of words in the Hebrew language are dependent on the words around it. So translating from ancient Hebrew to English is imperfect. Strong's Hebrew dictionary says ra' means-adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displeasure, distress (that is the simple definition)

God gave us free will, the ability of rational thought, and a significant amount of intelligence, yet he punishes us if we use traits and come to a conclusion he doesn't like. Sounds like a great guy, that Jesus.

Jesus suffered, died, and rose from the dead so that you don't have to suffer for your own actions. I think that sound like a really great guy. Like you said He gave you rational thought and intelligence to choose the right way so if you don't choose the right way who's fault is that.

God sent his son, who was also himself, into a virgin's womb so he could be born as half-man, half-god, so that after doing some pretty tame stuff he could sacrifice and kill himself in a way that even thieves did at that time, to pay for mankind's sin of being human because our first ancestors ate some fruit off a tree god forbade them from eating, even though he placed that tree there knowing full well what the consequences he would give them would be. Yeah. Great guy.

So, god gave us gifts, and when we use these gifts, he punishes us. Uh huh.

Those are just a few of the problems with your line of thinking, and I didn't even go into much depth.

[hackenslash]

Still, you at least have the weight of evidence on your side, in that, contrary to popular belief, absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Awesome logical fallacy bro.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_f ... of_absence

What logical fallacy? Drawing a categorical conclusion would constitute a fallacy, which is precisely why I warned against it further up the thread. The Wiki article is wrong, though, because absence of evidence is a data point in support of the hypothesis that the postulated entity is not there. Indeed, it was precisely this kind of evidence that led to the dropping of the luminiferous ether from our models of the universe, because if it existed, it would have left specific evidence which, when sought, was not found. In any case where the entity is properly defined, it is absolutely valid to infer absence from lack of evidence.

What absence of evidence is not is 'proof' of absence, but it is evidence. If you read the Wiki article fully, it actually makes a distinction and describes circumstances in which such inductive reasoning is important. Again, I would warn against drawing any categorical conclusions, and I gave a lengthy and detailed exposition of why this was so, which you chose to remove from the bit you actually reproduced of the post you quoted. What you have just done, then, is to quote mine me. Such dishonesty is a familiar part of the aetiology of the supernaturalist, and I applaud you for it.

Well done.

[radicalaggrivation]

Very interesting post. I wish I was here sooner but since I wasn't I just going to slightly mess up you guys flow.

This is the exact kind of input I hoped for, so you are not late to the party at all.

radicalaggrivation Please correct me if I am wrong but this is Epicurus's argument.

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

 

This is what I believe. God is both Willing and able to remove evil. So the question is were did evil come from? Evil is disobedience of the rules God setup.

If God created everything and is able to remove evil, then logically we can posit that God is also the author of evil. If you make the claim that we are the originators of evil and that God would wish to remove evil, that means that God is not able to remove evil (since, if he desired to do so, he would have just created us without evil tendencies or he could have just removed it when he realized we had evil tendencies). This brings up two issues. First, if God knows everything, then it is impossible that he could not have known we would be evil from the start (which would make him the author of evil). If God knew the suffering we would endure because of this, he cares little for human suffering and thus he is malevolent.

Secondly, we have to address free will. Free will means that we make choices. If God knows what we are going to choose beforehand it is not a choice, it is Gods plan.  If we do have free will, are capable of evil, and God wants to remove evil, God is not omnipotent. If there is anything God cannot do he is not all powerful. So pick your poison: Do we have free will that God cannot control or is God the malevolent author of all the worlds ills?  

I would say that it is started with Love. Love is a choice and God wanted man to love Him to choose Him. God could have made everyone obey Him but since Love requires a decision then we have to actively choose Him. So if we have to choose Him that means that we have an option to not choose Him.

I will just let alone the fact that we either have no choices or God is malevolent for now. Consider the "choice" that is being presented if I accept that everything up to this point is not contradictory. We can either choose to love God or go to hell. We can choose to dedicate our entire lives without a shred of tangible evidence or we can be tortured forever. Thats the so called choice. So God created us, gave us a world filled with observable phenomenon, but left no traces of himself that would eliminate the need for blind faith. God also made it impossible for everyone in the world to even have his word available to them. He also made it impossible for those who do believe to have a single correct interpretation. We don't just have to hear of God. We have to have be in the right place, have the correct upbringing, and have the correct interpretation. If we don't have all of these things we are tortured eternally.

God made it impossible for everyone to get a fair shot at believing him but you have to endure eternal torture for that. God had to know this would happen. Since he knew ahead of time then he understood that a lot of people never really had a choice. Therefore free will is irrelevant and God is evil. Even if there was really a choice to be had it is at the very least coerced. This is the equivalent of someone pulling a gun on you and yelling, "Give me your wallet or die over and over again forever." It is a choice where there is only one right answer, thus defeating the purpose of calling it a valid choice in the first place.

Now lets move on to what I spoke of earlier, the disobedience of God. God requires justice but He is also merciful. So in His mercy He used Jesus as a stand in for all acts of evil committed by anyone. So if you make the decision to choose to give your life to God then He will begin to make you like Him. (No you will not become gods but you will be exactly what you were meant to be...holy)This is not religion this actually allowing God to rule in your life and change who you are. This is a process of learning and growing. This is God's mercy . Once everyone who will accept His offer has then He will enact His justice by removing evil. He will even destroy this earth and remake a new one.

Even if I ignore all of my previous points we still have a very serious problem with Jesus. Jesus is necessary in this story because of original sin. Jesus is the idea that since we are all born with this mark of evil against us we must be given a vehicle to remove it. The biggest problem is that we are given absolutely no choice in this at all. The whole concept negates choice. Whether we like it or not, Jesus died for us so we owe him. We owe Jesus because of something someone else did. Our choices do not affect this outcome at all. But not only do we owe Jesus our devotion, we also owe Jesus our lives. This is an intrinsically wicked concept at its core. It is a very clever way of forcing an albatross around everyone's neck at birth. This is another evil act by God.

 

The prevention of evil can not just rest upon God's shoulders but also on those who do evil. God have given us the ability to choose to choose to obey Him or disobey Him. To be evil or allow Him to make us like Him. He is willing to equip us with the ability to not be evil but it must be on His terms and since He made it all who are we to tell Him anything different?

How can the prevention of evil not rest on God? If you believe God is willing and able then why did God just never allow evil to come about? Either he wanted there to be evil so that he could have an excuse to condemn us to eternal torture or he was not able to stop it and therefore, is not God (since the christian God is omniscient).

[radicalaggrivation]

Was He willing to prevent evil, and thus negate any choice man would make?  No, for that would not have been Love.  Instead He chose to overcome evil with Good.

So let me get this straight. God loves us because he would not prevent evil. How does this concept work? Even if I accept that this really enabled free will somehow, how can you say God loves anyone when he allowed so many good, God fearing people to suffer because of evil? Why not prevent these peoples suffering by the hands of the evil? Because of Gods allowance of a choice many people suffer greatly. This is malevolent. There is no real choice to be made however. I explain that in my response to gsaint above.

He does not fit in any little a=b boxes we try to place Him in, rather He tells us He is neither a, nor b, nor even c, that a only equals b from our limited perception, and that c is greater than we could imagine.

This is a very telling argument. This, to me, is almost an admission of your own lack of knowledge (don't worry, there is none to be had). God is always something real and tangible until we review him closely. When we get to the details he gets more and more fuzzy and more and more contradictory. What you really seem to be saying here is, "There are some things that may be contradictory about God but we are only seeing a small part of a bigger picture." I completely reject this notion. God is always greater than we can imagine when we ask questions. There is always suppose to be some much greater meaning that we simply do not get. If you believe that, then what makes you so sure that you know anything about God? If the revealed words of God are not enough for us to understand him how can we be held accountable for disbelieving him? More importantly, what esoteric knowledge do you posses that allows you to know what is in Gods mind, if he fits into no boxes we can place around him? If our ways of observing the world cannot detect or understand him there is no reason to assume he exists.

[Gawen]

I raised two kids; a son and daughter. When they were still young enough not to know right from wrong, and not to even know what death is because they hadn't seen anything die, just Adam and Eve, I put a plate of cookies in front of them and told them that they'd die if they ate it, and then I left and stayed away for a while.

Well, they told me that a dog came along and ate one of the cookies. And the daughter (the oldest) claimed that the dog told her that it was OK, that I hadn't poisoned the cookies. (I'm not that kind of parent, you know.) So she ate it, and then talked her brother into eating one as well.

Now, what parent likes being disobeyed? When I walked inside the door and saw the missing cookies, I kicked them out into the woods, naked except for their underwear (because I couldn’t find leaves large enough to hide their private parts) where they could have incest with each other, and posted a guard to shoot them if they came back.
 
The dog? I cut off his legs.
 
The above is not a true story, but...

My fundy neighbors would tell me I showed Godly love.

[Stevil]

My fundy neighbors would tell me I showed Godly love.

The problem with you is that you are not god, your godly love has mortal limitations.

God of course would know if your children can resist cookies, because god knows everything and can see the future as if it has already happened. god would know if cookies would be irresistable or not, so instead, if cookies wouldn't do the trick god would use chocolates, if those wouldn't work god would invent something that would, if that wouldn't work then god would create another child lets call her "Eve", god would make her irresistable and influential to your children. If that wouldn't work then god would send another creature, as you say, your talking pet dog, to put a word in your childrens ear and the creation Eve's ear. If your children still don't take then Eve will take, she will wave the item under your children's noses, she will taunt them until they finally crack, then all of a sudden god will show up and impose god's justice. You showed too much mercy. God would also deny them any personal contact with itself for ever, would punish the female child with pain, would punish any female children of god's children with pain, would punish any female children of god's childrens children with pain, actually for all decendants for whom are female pain would be coming their way curtousy of god.
And of course god takes no accountability what so ever for not having taught the children proper values i.e. do as I say because I am your parent, you must obey.

Personaly I am all for the naughty corner, get them to say sorry, give them a kiss and a hug and forget the whole incident. Lucky for my children I look to the super nanny for inspiration rather than god.

BTW I am surprised that Christians continue to eat apples, I am also surprised that Christians do not look to their god for inspiration on how to raise children and how to appropriately deal with disobediance. I would have thought for them god's way would have been seen as the perfect approach.

[TheWilliam]

"But if you say, "Show me thy God," I would reply, "Show me yourself, and I will show you my God." Show, then, that the eyes of your soul are capable of seeing, and the ears of your heart able to hear; for as those who look with the eyes of the body perceive earthly objects and what concerns this life, and discriminate at the same time between things that differ, whether light or darkness, white or black, deformed or beautiful, well-proportioned and symmetrical or disproportioned and awkward, or monstrous or mutilated; and as in like manner also, by the sense of hearing, we discriminate either sharp, or deep, or sweet sounds; so the same holds good regarding the eyes of the soul and the ears of the heart, that it is by them we are able to behold God. For God is seen by those who are enabled to see Him when they have the eyes of their soul opened: for all have eyes; but in some they are overspread, and do not see the light of the sun. Yet it does not follow, because the blind do not see, that the light of the sun does not shine; but let the blind blame themselves and their own eyes. So also thou, O man, hast the eyes of thy soul overspread by thy sins and evil deeds. As a burnished mirror, so ought man to have his soul pure. When there is rust on the mirror, it is not possible that a man's face be seen in the mirror; so also when there is sin in a man, such a man cannot behold God. Do you, therefore, show me yourself, whether you are not an adulterer, or a fornicator, or a thief, or a robber, or a purloiner; whether you do not corrupt boys; whether you are not insolent, or a slanderer, or passionate, or envious, or proud, or supercilious; whether you are not a brawler, or covetous, or disobedient to parents; and whether you do not sell your children; for to those who do these things God is not manifest, unless they have first cleansed themselves from all impurity. All these things, then, involve you in darkness, as when a filmy defluxion on the eyes prevents one from beholding the light of the sun: thus also do iniquities, 0 man, involve you in darkness, so that you cannot see God. "-St.Theophilus of Antioch

seriously bro,

just one big faceraping headache paragragh eh?

i feel it.

[Achronos]

So let me get this straight. God loves us because he would not prevent evil. How does this concept work? Even if I accept that this really enabled free will somehow, how can you say God loves anyone when he allowed so many good, God fearing people to suffer because of evil? Why not prevent these peoples suffering by the hands of the evil? Because of Gods allowance of a choice many people suffer greatly. This is malevolent. There is no real choice to be made however. I explain that in my response to gsaint above.

If we accept the Biblical narrative about the Fall, we find that evil only exists because of man.  In fact, evil is an action, not something that happens.  There are things that happen that are tragic, such as calamities, plagues, and famines and such, but in a good vs evil debate these don't rise to the level of evil.  In fact, if it weren't for our fear of death (whether it's the fear of damnation, or the fear of total non-existence) events would have no sense of tragedy to them at all.  If everyone knew for certain that after you die you go to a place even better than the one you know now (I hear there's pie) death would not be mourned, but celebrated.

Evil requires an action.  It takes a rather twisted humanity to turn tragic circumstances into evil circumstances.  A hurricane might kill a few, a disease might cause some suffering.  It takes humanity to force people to live under deprived conditions, to ensure that death involves as much suffering as possible, to send people off to gulags to wait in fear of execution.  Animals might kill for food, or to protect territory and mating rights, it takes a human to kill for an I-pod.

It exists because man is given the freedom to choose, he can choose God and the good and life, or he can choose evil and death.  There is no other way that would allow for choice.  God is good, to reject Him is evil.  It couldn't be a choice between God and ice-cream, for the opposite of God is not ice-cream.

The only way for God to not allow evil would be if God were to not allow humans.  We could perhaps argue if it were better for God to not have created humans, but if the answer is that God is evil because He created humanity, then the only answer is mass genocide of the species.  That'll show Him.

This is a very telling argument. This, to me, is almost an admission of your own lack of knowledge (don't worry, there is none to be had). God is always something real and tangible until we review him closely. When we get to the details he gets more and more fuzzy and more and more contradictory. What you really seem to be saying here is, "There are some things that may be contradictory about God but we are only seeing a small part of a bigger picture." I completely reject this notion. God is always greater than we can imagine when we ask questions. There is always suppose to be some much greater meaning that we simply do not get. If you believe that, then what makes you so sure that you know anything about God? If the revealed words of God are not enough for us to understand him how can we be held accountable for disbelieving him? More importantly, what esoteric knowledge do you posses that allows you to know what is in Gods mind, if he fits into no boxes we can place around him? If our ways of observing the world cannot detect or understand him there is no reason to assume he exists.

I don't think you really have comprehended yet what Orthodox teaching is. God is in essence unknowable. We can know He exists, we can know certain things about His existence by His revelation, and in conjunction with that revelation we can determine certain things about Him from creation.  

But, don't misunderstand, it's not that when we get to the details He gets more fuzzy.  It's that when we get to the details He gets more complex.  And this is so with anything.  Anything seems simple enough when you take it on face value, it's when you start asking questions, delving into answers, that more questions are bred.  

Take anything in the natural world.  A human being seems simple enough at first, then you start examining each part.  You go underneath the skin and find a host of bones, connected by ligament and powered by muscles.  Behind those bones is a brain and heart.  Delve further under a microscope and you find all sorts of cells. Then you reach DNA. And even DNA is constructed of even tinier pieces. But you don't find these things out until you accept that a thing called a man can exist.  

We could have never realized the complexity of bacteria and virii until we stopped questioning that tiny invisible particles can cause diseases, and we started looking for them instead.

Even better, take that dizzying world of Quantum Physics. The more questions we answer, the more questions pop up.  We have more questions about the nature of reality with all of our answers than the Greek philosophers could have dreamed of.

It is even more so with God. The more I know God the more I realize just how unknowable He is. Knowing He is Good is a good starting point, then I find there is more to goodness than I ever imagined.  Right did Milton tell us that "How Awful goodness is."  

Fortunately, we don't have to understand Him.  But even this is not surprising.  I cannot even begin to understand a fellow human being, the second I think I do they do something so shockingly surprising (good, bad, or just unusual) that I am left puzzled.  When you get right down to it, I don't even understand myself all the time, I am constantly doing things (good, bad, or unusual) that I never would have thought myself capable of.  Know what's in God's mind?  My good fellow, if I could just know what's in your mind it would be a miracle!  But you don't need to understand someone to have a relationship with them.  You can understand some things about them, the rest you take on faith. I understand that my friend is occasionally grouchy because his father abused him, I have faith that if I'm in a pickle he'll be the first one to get my back (faith within reason, he's had my back since day one).  I understand that God is terribly good, I have faith (within reason because of the Incarnation) that He will make me good as well.

[LegendarySandwich]

So let me get this straight. God loves us because he would not prevent evil. How does this concept work? Even if I accept that this really enabled free will somehow, how can you say God loves anyone when he allowed so many good, God fearing people to suffer because of evil? Why not prevent these peoples suffering by the hands of the evil? Because of Gods allowance of a choice many people suffer greatly. This is malevolent. There is no real choice to be made however. I explain that in my response to gsaint above.

If we accept the Biblical narrative about the Fall, we find that evil only exists because of man.

And God let evil exist because of man.

In fact, evil is an action, not something that happens.

Uh, an action is something that happens...

There are things that happen that are tragic, such as calamities, plagues, and famines and such, but in a good vs evil debate these don't rise to the level of evil.

Yes, natural disasters that take potentially thousands, maybe even millions, of lives aren't evil. Not at all.

In fact, if it weren't for our fear of death (whether it's the fear of damnation, or the fear of total non-existence) events would have no sense of tragedy to them at all.

Who gave us our fear of death?

If everyone knew for certain that after you die you go to a place even better than the one you know now (I hear there's pie) death would not be mourned, but celebrated.

This is demonstrably false. Christians and other theists who sincerely believe they are going to heaven when they die are just as afraid and saddened at death as anyone else.

Evil requires an action.

True.

It takes a rather twisted humanity to turn tragic circumstances into evil circumstances.  A hurricane might kill a few, a disease might cause some suffering.  It takes humanity to force people to live under deprived conditions, to ensure that death involves as much suffering as possible, to send people off to gulags to wait in fear of execution.  Animals might kill for food, or to protect territory and mating rights, it takes a human to kill for an I-pod.

And God made humans. What does this say about him?

It exists because man is given the freedom to choose, he can choose God and the good and life, or he can choose evil and death.

Why must he choose between these two things? Why can't he still be good without God? Why does he have the ability to reject God? Why does he have abilities that, when utilized, point towards no God?

There is no other way that would allow for choice.

Why is choice good?

God is good, to reject Him is evil.

Why?

It couldn't be a choice between God and ice-cream, for the opposite of God is not ice-cream.

Why not?

The only way for God to not allow evil would be if God were to not allow humans.

Why?

We could perhaps argue if it were better for God to not have created humans, but if the answer is that God is evil because He created humanity, then the only answer is mass genocide of the species.  That'll show Him.

Why did God have to create humans the way they are?

I don't think you really have comprehended yet what Orthodox teaching is. God is in essence unknowable.

Why?

We can know He exists, we can know certain things about His existence by His revelation, and in conjunction with that revelation we can determine certain things about Him from creation.

Why can't we know more?

But, don't misunderstand, it's not that when we get to the details He gets more fuzzy.  It's that when we get to the details He gets more complex.  And this is so with anything.  Anything seems simple enough when you take it on face value, it's when you start asking questions, delving into answers, that more questions are bred.

Why couldn't he have made us able to understand him?

It is even more so with God. The more I know God the more I realize just how unknowable He is. Knowing He is Good is a good starting point, then I find there is more to goodness than I ever imagined.  Right did Milton tell us that "How Awful goodness is."

If you accept that God is good from the start, then anything he does is good automatically, making the word "good" useless when talking about God.

Fortunately, we don't have to understand Him.  But even this is not surprising.  I cannot even begin to understand a fellow human being, the second I think I do they do something so shockingly surprising (good, bad, or just unusual) that I am left puzzled.  When you get right down to it, I don't even understand myself all the time, I am constantly doing things (good, bad, or unusual) that I never would have thought myself capable of.  Know what's in God's mind?  My good fellow, if I could just know what's in your mind it would be a miracle!  But you don't need to understand someone to have a relationship with them.  You can understand some things about them, the rest you take on faith. I understand that my friend is occasionally grouchy because his father abused him, I have faith that if I'm in a pickle he'll be the first one to get my back (faith within reason, he's had my back since day one).  I understand that God is terribly good, I have faith (within reason because of the Incarnation) that He will make me good as well.

Why is faith good? Why wouldn't God prize intelligence and rationality more? Why aren't all humans equal?

[gsaint]

I want to 1st apologize to all of you I have been sugar coating some things and I have been convicted by God last night and today to stop that. So I first want to say God is offensive. He isn't your Santa Clause and He didn't create us so that we  can be happy but so that man could be a reflection of His Glory. Yes it is all about God. Although, He does care for us and knows what is best for us. We as humans don't define God and we don't live in a democracy where we can vote out God.

Wow, that's really moral. "Hey, guess what! Murdered a little kid? It's okay! You don't have to suffer the consequences of your actions. Isn't that great? Isn't that just?"

Like I said I sugar coated it. If a murdered realized that what he did was wrong that he sinned against that child's family, that child, himself, humans, and God. Asked God to forgive him of all of his sins not just the sin of murder then God is faithful to forgive him. If this man is in jail that doesn't mean he will be released. If this man is on death row that doesn't mean this man will not face the executioner. If that man was not in jail then that man should confess his and give himself up for his crimes. What it means is this man does not have to spend eternity in hell.  The difference between the murderer and the guy who never broke any human law, but died without acknowledging God, is that the man who was good in other man's eyes commented other sins that were still punishable of death to God. Since God is perfect He will not tolerate any sin or evil.

The question is what is evil? (feel free to tell me your definition)

If God created everything and is able to remove evil, then logically we can posit that God is also the author of evil

God does allow evil to exist for the moment in certain circumstances to help man understand his need for God and help to grow in his knowledge of God (like in the book of Job). God also wanted us to have free will so if we don't have a choice of not choosing Him then there is no choice. This doesn't mean the He made it but that it  occurred becasue it was the cause of not choosing Good (or God). All through out the Bible there are times when God tells man what not to do but man chooses his own way and then man finds himself in a painful situation. It would be evil of God to not tell you what to do and then judge you for it. God will judge every man individually and based on that persons knowledge. I will not be judged the same way  the pope will be judged or the same way you will be judged.

Do we have free will that God cannot control or is God the malevolent author of all the worlds ills?

You must also understand that God is all knowing so it not the same as me allowing a bad thing to happen because I don't know the outcome of the situation. Since God knows the outcome of the situation He will do as He pleases. God also has rule for Himself He will not break. Since He has given man free will to choose Him or to not choose him He will not infringe on that boundary. That doesn't make Him not all powerful becasue He can end your life when He wants to.

We can choose to dedicate our entire lives without a shred of tangible evidence or we can be tortured forever.

I do not live my life without a shred of evidence that God does not exist. The Holy Spirit lives in me and directs me. I know who God is not just out of the Bible or from what people have told me. I know God before I ever read the Bible. I get direction from God not from man. Just becasue you choose to not see the evidence of a God doesn't mean that it isn't there.

So God created us, gave us a world filled with observable phenomenon, but left no traces of himself that would eliminate the need for blind faith.

I am proof that there is a God because I know Him. There are people on this earth today who know God and live by His word and direction. The Bible is evidence of His existence. Prove to me that it isn't the word of God. I know it is the word of God becasue it has proven to be true and the fact that no one has successfully be able to destroy it. I don't want to get into it too heavily but I will if you want me to.

God also made it impossible for everyone in the world to even have his word available to them. He also made it impossible for those who do believe to have a single correct interpretation. We don't just have to hear of God. We have to have be in the right place, have the correct upbringing, and have the correct interpretation. If we don't have all of these things we are tortured eternally.

God uses people to tell other people about Him and then He moves in that person, that doesn't know Him, to help them understand who He is. You can reject His moving or not. I don't know all of how God makes it happen becasue I am not God. There are people all over the world traveling to remote places to teach others about God. Also God can just inform man who He is by himself. He likes to use other people but that not going to stop Him. Like I said before I don't believe in God becasue of my parents. When I meet God I wasn't going to church and was too young to read a bible. God can and will make himself known to man in one way or another but everyone has a chance to accept Him or not. Again like I said before If there is a man in the jungle with no Bible God is only going to judge Him on what He knows.

God made it impossible for everyone to get a fair shot at believing him but you have to endure eternal torture for that.

The only thing you need to know God is be human and trust in God, that is it. No right up bringing no right status. God want a relationship with every person but He will not force Himself on anyone. So anyone who wants to know Him will know Him.

Jesus died for us so we owe him. We owe Jesus because of something someone else did. Our choices do not affect this outcome at all. But not only do we owe Jesus our devotion, we also owe Jesus our lives. This is an intrinsically wicked concept at its core. It is a very clever way of forcing an albatross around everyone's neck at birth. This is another evil act by God.

This again is where God gets offensive becasue you owe God your life even if Jesus didn't die on the cross. Since God gave you life He owns you.  It would be just for God to judge us the way we are without the provision of Jesus. He made us for one thing you choose not to do that thing so then He judges you accordingly. If you made something that didn't work you would either fix it or throw it away. The thing doesn't get to choose the way it is fixed nor does it get to choose what it is made for. The reason Jesus had to die the way he died is to show us the cost of God's love and provision. The sin we commit is not a simple act it is the rejection of the Holy God. So therefor you are judged for what you have done

How can the prevention of evil not rest on God?

Man is responsible for every act he does so if he commits evil he can either pay for it himself or allow it to be paid for by God. Both are costly chooses one is far better and has greater benefits than the other.

Hell is not being with God. If you don't choose God then you choose not to be with God so you choose to be in Hell.

[LegendarySandwich]

I want to 1st apologize to all of you I have been sugar coating some things and I have been convicted by God last night and today to stop that. So I first want to say God is offensive. He isn't your Santa Clause and He didn't create us so that we  can be happy but so that man could be a reflection of His Glory. Yes it is all about God. Although, He does care for us and knows what is best for us. We as humans don't define God and we don't live in a democracy where we can vote out God.

God sounds like petty asshole to me. He created us just for his amusement and self-confidence. He wants us to worship him, and if we don't, we get to suffer infinitely for all eternity. And if we do, we get to live with him for all eternity doing...that's right, you guessed it -- worshiping him! Doesn't that sound fun?

Wow, that's really moral. "Hey, guess what! Murdered a little kid? It's okay! You don't have to suffer the consequences of your actions. Isn't that great? Isn't that just?"

Like I said I sugar coated it. If a murdered realized that what he did was wrong that he sinned against that child's family, that child, himself, humans, and God. Asked God to forgive him of all of his sins not just the sin of murder then God is faithful to forgive him. If this man is in jail that doesn't mean he will be released. If this man is on death row that doesn't mean this man will not face the executioner. If that man was not in jail then that man should confess his and give himself up for his crimes. What it means is this man does not have to spend eternity in hell.  The difference between the murderer and the guy who never broke any human law, but died without acknowledging God, is that the man who was good in other man's eyes commented other sins that were still punishable of death to God. Since God is perfect He will not tolerate any sin or evil.

And good people that have looked at the evidence (or lack therefore of) for God and concluded he doesn't exist using the gifts (logic, intellect, reason) God gave them will spend eternity in Hell. And good people that were indoctrinated into another religion and saw no reason to convert to Christianity get to go to Hell. But, guess what? A child rapist that was lucky enough to be indoctrinated into Christianity gets to say a few magic words and feel it in his heart and, yay! He gets to go to Heaven!

The question is what is evil? (feel free to tell me your definition)

Evil is anything that I don't like or approve of. Good is anything that I like and approve of.

If God created everything and is able to remove evil, then logically we can posit that God is also the author of evil

God does allow evil to exist for the moment in certain circumstances to help man understand his need for God and help to grow in his knowledge of God (like in the book of Job). God also wanted us to have free will so if we don't have a choice of not choosing Him then there is no choice. This doesn't mean the He made it but that it  occurred becasue it was the cause of not choosing Good (or God).[/quote]
Wait, what? The way you wrote this is confusing.

All through out the Bible there are times when God tells man what not to do but man chooses his own way and then man finds himself in a painful situation. It would be evil of God to not tell you what to do and then judge you for it.

So, it would be evil for God not to judge his creations for using the free will and intellect he gave them and arrived at "wrong" conclusions.

God will judge every man individually and based on that persons knowledge. I will not be judged the same way  the pope will be judged or the same way you will be judged."

So, God judges on intellect, then, not faith?

Do we have free will that God cannot control or is God the malevolent author of all the worlds ills?

You must also understand that God is all knowing so it not the same as me allowing a bad thing to happen because I don't know the outcome of the situation.

God is omnipotent, which means he can do anything. He doesn't have to let evil continue, but he does. This means he's malevolent.

Since God knows the outcome of the situation He will do as He pleases. God also has rule for Himself He will not break. Since He has given man free will to choose Him or to not choose him He will not infringe on that boundary. That doesn't make Him not all powerful becasue He can end your life when He wants to.

Why is not having free will bad?

We can choose to dedicate our entire lives without a shred of tangible evidence or we can be tortured forever.

I do not live my life without a shred of evidence that God does not exist. The Holy Spirit lives in me and directs me. I know who God is not just out of the Bible or from what people have told me. I know God before I ever read the Bible. I get direction from God not from man. Just becasue you choose to not see the evidence of a God doesn't mean that it isn't there.

I ignore religious arguments that would be equally valid if you substituted another religion in its place. The exact same argument could be used towards Islam, or Scientology.

So God created us, gave us a world filled with observable phenomenon, but left no traces of himself that would eliminate the need for blind faith.

I am proof that there is a God because I know Him.

I am proof there is a Santa Clause because I know him. I talk with him everyday and see his effects on my life, especially at Christmas.

There are people on this earth today who know God and live by His word and direction. The Bible is evidence of His existence.

Your religion has one book. Santa Clause has thousands of books, movies, songs, and other items proving his existence. Statistically speaking, Santa Clause is thousands more times likely to exist than God.

Prove to me that it isn't the word of God.

My proof is that I know in my heart it isn't the word of God. I have faith it isn't, and you can't disprove my faith.

I know it is the word of God becasue it has proven to be true and the fact that no one has successfully be able to destroy it.

If I got out a lighter and burned a copy of the Bible, will I prove that it isn't the word of God?

I don't want to get into it too heavily but I will if you want me to.

Go ahead. I want to see what you have to say.

God also made it impossible for everyone in the world to even have his word available to them. He also made it impossible for those who do believe to have a single correct interpretation. We don't just have to hear of God. We have to have be in the right place, have the correct upbringing, and have the correct interpretation. If we don't have all of these things we are tortured eternally.

God uses people to tell other people about Him and then He moves in that person, that doesn't know Him, to help them understand who He is.

So, if a Christian on Earth fails to tell someone about the correct version of Christianity, then that person will be infinitely tortured for infinity.

You can reject His moving or not.

You can reject Santa Claus's moving or not. The choice is yours.

I don't know all of how God makes it happen becasue I am not God.

"I don't know how it happens, but I have faith", right?

There are people all over the world traveling to remote places to teach others about God.

And hey, if those Hindus refuse to believe in the Christian god, they deserve to be infinitely tortured for all infinity, right?

Also God can just inform man who He is by himself.

But yet, he doesn't. Strange.

He likes to use other people but that not going to stop Him. Like I said before I don't believe in God becasue of my parents. When I meet God I wasn't going to church and was too young to read a bible. God can and will make himself known to man in one way or another but everyone has a chance to accept Him or not. Again like I said before If there is a man in the jungle with no Bible God is only going to judge Him on what He knows.

Strange that you had Christian religious experiences and you were brought up in a Christian home. Go figure.

God made it impossible for everyone to get a fair shot at believing him but you have to endure eternal torture for that.

The only thing you need to know God is be human and trust in God, that is it. No right up bringing no right status. God want a relationship with every person but He will not force Himself on anyone. So anyone who wants to know Him will know Him.

I want to know him.

...

...

When do I get to know him?

Jesus died for us so we owe him. We owe Jesus because of something someone else did. Our choices do not affect this outcome at all. But not only do we owe Jesus our devotion, we also owe Jesus our lives. This is an intrinsically wicked concept at its core. It is a very clever way of forcing an albatross around everyone's neck at birth. This is another evil act by God.

This again is where God gets offensive becasue you owe God your life even if Jesus didn't die on the cross. Since God gave you life He owns you.  It would be just for God to judge us the way we are without the provision of Jesus. He made us for one thing you choose not to do that thing so then He judges you accordingly. If you made something that didn't work you would either fix it or throw it away. The thing doesn't get to choose the way it is fixed nor does it get to choose what it is made for. The reason Jesus had to die the way he died is to show us the cost of God's love and provision. The sin we commit is not a simple act it is the rejection of the Holy God. So therefor you are judged for what you have done

Once again, God shows that he is a petty asshole. Which contradicts his supposed omnibenevolence. Which means he doesn't exist.

Oh well.

How can the prevention of evil not rest on God?

Man is responsible for every act he does so if he commits evil he can either pay for it himself or allow it to be paid for by God. Both are costly chooses one is far better and has greater benefits than the other.

God created man, and he created evil, with full knowledge of everything he was going to do.

Hell is not being with God. If you don't choose God then you choose not to be with God so you choose to be in Hell.

Just like you choose not to believe in Santa Claus, so you won't get any presents next Christmas. It's your fault for not choosing to believe in him.

[radicalaggrivation]

The difference between the murderer and the guy who never broke any human law, but died without acknowledging God, is that the man who was good in other man's eyes commented other sins that were still punishable of death to God

This is one of the most disgusting things about the Christian god. When we get down to it, being a good person is optional so long as you repent. Being a good person is not necessary because you can always make a death bed repentance and have all of your sins washed away. What a dangerous and vile concept. That is not perfection. That is nonsense.

Since God is perfect He will not tolerate any sin or evil.

Clearly God does tolerate it because he allowed it to exist. Why not just rid the Garden of Eden of the snake, if it held such ill intent towards God’s precious creation?

The question is what is evil? (feel free to tell me your definition)

While I certainly use the word evil in a colloquial sense, I reject the notion of evil. Good and evil is a matter of social and personal perspective and what is viewed as good or evil changes with the people you ask. There is no definition because it means something different to everyone. What is meant by this in an everyday sense is how much harm versus good are peoples actions having?

God does allow evil to exist for the moment in certain circumstances to help man understand his need for God and help to grow in his knowledge of God (like in the book of Job).

No, no, no. God does not “allow” evil to exist, God is the originator of evil. If evil is a real tangible force and it manifests in our world, it has to have its origins in the creator of everything. Let’s make our language clear. You can’t have it both ways. Either God created evil or he did not. If he did then you still need to address my previous argument. If he did not, then you need to explain why we have evil (especially since you believe that God is all powerful and does not desire evil).

God also wanted us to have free will so if we don't have a choice of not choosing Him then there is no choice.

There is no choice to be made. We either cave in to this eternal dictator or we burn in hell forever. As I already demonstrated, this is coercion and does not reflect a true choice.

This doesn't mean the He made it but that it occurred becasue it was the cause of not choosing Good (or God).

Wrong again. God created all existence and the circumstances in which we exist. Unless a force outside of God created evil he is responsible. You can open that can of worms if you want. Even if I assume that that is true, you have still contradicted the Christian god. By your words God wants to rid the world of evil. If he desires that and it has not happened he cant be all powerful.

All through out the Bible there are times when God tells man what not to do but man chooses his own way and then man finds himself in a painful situation. It would be evil of God to not tell you what to do and then judge you for it.

I think it is evil of God to know ahead of time that humans would make the wrong choice (since he created us that way) and then torture us forever for doing what is in his plan. Or is it not his plan? If God does not know what we are going to choose he is not all knowing and your point is valid. If God knows then he is evil and we are not accountable for our actions, since it is all just a part of his plan. Again, pick your poison.
 

God will judge every man individually and based on that persons knowledge. I will not be judged the same way the pope will be judged or the same way you will be judged.

God also clearly judges people based off of what other people do. The fact that we are born of sin because of the choices of Eve is a judgment that we cannot avoid. We start off in the hole and owing God. Then we have to try and work ourselves out. But even if a person lived a totally perfect life, they still have to bear the burden of original sin and would be judged as unworthy by God.

You must also understand that God is all knowing so it not the same as me allowing a bad thing to happen because I don't know the outcome of the situation. Since God knows the outcome of the situation He will do as He pleases.

Right, God is always all knowing when a contradiction pops up. This does not make it go away. Saying God is all knowing does not change the fact that God either knows everything beforehand and we don’t have a choice or God does not know our choices and is not omniscient. You have yet to actually address this contradiction in his nature and a straight answer would be nice.
 

God also has rule for Himself He will not break.

Like what? And how did you come by this knowledge?

Since He has given man free will to choose Him or to not choose him He will not infringe on that boundary.

This still makes no sense, unless you can address my previous argument with new information.

That doesn't make Him not all powerful becasue He can end your life when He wants to.

Lol. So what? I can end my life when I want to. Does that make me all powerful?

I do not live my life without a shred of evidence that God does not exist. The Holy Spirit lives in me and directs me. I know who God is not just out of the Bible or from what people have told me. I know God before I ever read the Bible. I get direction from God not from man. Just becasue you choose to not see the evidence of a God doesn't mean that it isn't there.

You may feel that your personal experience is enough evidence to prove Gods existence but it isn’t. You know why? Because there are hundreds of other religions, with millions of other followers that are incompatible with your beliefs and you all feel the same way. You all think that your gut feeling is enough evidence. You telling me what God or the Holy Spirit does for you proves nothing and is not comparable to evidence. The fact is that everything testable or demonstrable about your religion has either been proven false or is too intangible to make a determination one way or the other. Either way, it isn’t evidence. Sorry.

I am proof that there is a God because I know Him. There are people on this earth today who know God and live by His word and direction. The Bible is evidence of His existence. Prove to me that it isn't the word of God. I know it is the word of God becasue it has proven to be true and the fact that no one has successfully be able to destroy it. I don't want to get into it too heavily but I will if you want me to.

Again, your word alone is proof of nothing. And when you say you know him, do you mean you speak to God directly? The Bible is also evidence of nothing. The Bible actually works against you and your assertions. If you would like to get into that I would be more than happy to oblige you. I would not mind hearing how the Bible aids your argument. What version of the Bible are you using?

God uses people to tell other people about Him and then He moves in that person, that doesn't know Him, to help them understand who He is. You can reject His moving or not. I don't know all of how God makes it happen becasue I am not God. There are people all over the world traveling to remote places to teach others about God. Also God can just inform man who He is by himself. He likes to use other people but that not going to stop Him. Like I said before I don't believe in God becasue of my parents. When I meet God I wasn't going to church and was too young to read a bible. God can and will make himself known to man in one way or another but everyone has a chance to accept Him or not. Again like I said before If there is a man in the jungle with no Bible God is only going to judge Him on what He knows.

You take for granted that there are people across the world that say you are going to hell for the same reason. What’s the difference? That your god is right and theirs is wrong? Okay. That still tells me nothing. And where in the Bible does it say that God judges based off of knowledge? As I recall there is an ultimatum. You either accept the Christian god or upon death you are separated from him by being sent to be tortured eternally. And God has not made himself known to me and I searched with sincerity. I truly wanted to believe. So it isn’t that everyone who does not believe just rejects the evidence. It’s that the evidence presented does not support the conclusion we are suppose to reach. That is by any count. I would argue that it is you who is ignoring the evidence that points to the much more plausible conclusion that your god is a fairy tale.

The only thing you need to know God is be human and trust in God, that is it.

It’s truly sad for any human being to be coerced into believing such nonsense. This is the exact form of limited thinking that led to the rise of the Inquisition and the Crusades. This led to the suppression of Copernicus’ heliocentric theory by charge of blasphemy. Our minds evolved from lower creatures and it allows us to view the world consciously (or do you accept the biblical account?) and with a desire to understand the world around us. I have actually met very few Christians that truly feel that way and the sooner we are rid of this mode of thinking we won’t have so many brainwashed teenagers blowing themselves up at weddings. If we all only took that view of life we would still be dying of the black plague or burning witches.

God want a relationship with every person but He will not force Himself on anyone.
God does nothing but force his holiness on us. Not just by threat of death but by threat of eternal torments. You have reminded me several times already how much we owe God. Despite us having no choice at all in this arrangement, we have to accept that we are owned by God like his pets. He does all this so that we can obey his every command thoughtlessly and die, just so we can start worshiping his glory again after we have died. That is the worst description of a loving relationship ever recorded.

So anyone who wants to know Him will know Him.

So if I say that I really wanted to know him and I didn’t find what you found in it, you would just say I wasn’t trying hard enough right? You would just assume I wasn’t sincere enough or living out of sin enough, wouldn’t you? Or am I making too many assumptions?

This again is where God gets offensive because you owe God your life even if Jesus didn't die on the cross. Since God gave you life He owns you. It would be just for God to judge us the way we are without the provision of Jesus. He made us for one thing you choose not to do that thing so then He judges you accordingly. If you made something that didn't work you would either fix it or throw it away. The thing doesn't get to choose the way it is fixed nor does it get to choose what it is made for. The reason Jesus had to die the way he died is to show us the cost of God's love and provision. The sin we commit is not a simple act it is the rejection of the Holy God. So therefore you are judged for what you have done

It doesn’t offend me one bit. Guess what? I don’t owe God a damn thing. You don’t either but that is aside from the point. If God is real and he gave me free will, I exercise it to disbelieve he exists due to lack of evidence. But I would gladly live my life now and endure the hell under the ground (as opposed to the one in the sky), than to give up my freedom to an ill defined eternal dictator.

Man is responsible for every act he does so if he commits evil he can either pay for it himself or allow it to be paid for by God. Both are costly chooses one is far better and has greater benefits than the other.

You totally ignored my arguments and the argument by Epicurus that you yourself posted in this thread. If God created everything, how could he not have created evil? A straight answer would be nice. If you conform to the Genesis account of the world’s creation then you will see that evil existed prior to Adam and Eve’s repulsion form the Garden of Eden and into sin. The serpent is the devil and the devil is evil before Adam and Eve are. So your argument that evil originates in people is wrong if we believe your holy book.

Hell is not being with God. If you don't choose God then you choose not to be with God so you choose to be in Hell.

Wrong again. You can just say that I am choosing this but none of this was anyone’s choice. I have no reason to believe God is real. From what I can discern of the world no God is needed to explain the things around me or that compose me. I am not choosing to go to hell. If I disbelieve God that is the only choice I made. My view on God and his actions against me for this thought are not equivocal. God is also making a choice to send me to Hell. Unless your saying that God has no choice but to send me to hell, which would mean he wasn’t omnipotent or merciful.