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God cannot exist...sue me!

Started by radicalaggrivation, December 27, 2010, 06:11:49 AM

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LegendarySandwich

Quote from: "Davin"God sacrificed his own son, who was himself, who knew the whole deal of what was going on... so god let himself die in order to sacrifice himself to himself because of something that was in his control that he knew about in the first place... I don't see the sacrifice.
Not to mention that he came back to life three days later (bigger and better than ever), so the sacrifice was, in effect, nullified.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: "Davin"Yeah, I'm not surprised.
I knew you'd like that response.
Quote from: "Davin"So where in the bible does it say that Abraham knew he wouldn't have to REALLY sacrifice his son? If Abraham REALLY knew that he wouldn't have to sacrifice his son, then the whole point of the story is that when god tells you to do something, you REALLY know he doesn't mean it? Then why is not anything said by this god not taken with the same grain of salt? How do we know this god REALLY means that you have to beleive in him and Jesus to get into heaven?
Like I said...lots of asserting, conjecture, assuming...and you've not even gone to the source.
Quote from: "Davin"Contrary to my idea but you acted exactly as I predicted. Does that mean that I'm a prophet because my prediction came true?
I wrote what you wanted to hear and it felt good didn't it?  To be a prophet, one has to do better than make an educated guess at future events.
Quote from: "Davin"God sacrificed his own son, who was himself, who knew the whole deal of what was going on... so god let himself die in order to sacrifice himself to himself because of something that was in his control that he knew about in the first place... I don't see the sacrifice.
Very telling and honest words.
Quote from: "Davin"If this omniscient god knows that you will drink a glass of water at 3:08pm tomorrow afternoon, what will you do tomorrow at 3:08pm in the afternoon?
*You will be thirsty by your own thought process and drink something of your choice.

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"God sacrificed his own son, who was himself, who knew the whole deal of what was going on... so god let himself die in order to sacrifice himself to himself because of something that was in his control that he knew about in the first place... I don't see the sacrifice.
Very telling and honest words.
Maybe you'd like to explain why it is a sacrifice.

Davin

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"So where in the bible does it say that Abraham knew he wouldn't have to REALLY sacrifice his son? If Abraham REALLY knew that he wouldn't have to sacrifice his son, then the whole point of the story is that when god tells you to do something, you REALLY know he doesn't mean it? Then why is not anything said by this god not taken with the same grain of salt? How do we know this god REALLY means that you have to beleive in him and Jesus to get into heaven?
Like I said...lots of asserting, conjecture, assuming...and you've not even gone to the source.
I've been to the source, it LITERALLY says that god commanded Abraham to kill his son, and never LITERALLY says that Abraham knew god was lying to him.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"Contrary to my idea but you acted exactly as I predicted. Does that mean that I'm a prophet because my prediction came true?
I wrote what you wanted to hear and it felt good didn't it?  To be a prophet, one has to do better than make an educated guess at future events.
Sure, it was funny that you're poor argument tactics were no different than the ones used by the majority of theists I've talked to.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"God sacrificed his own son, who was himself, who knew the whole deal of what was going on... so god let himself die in order to sacrifice himself to himself because of something that was in his control that he knew about in the first place... I don't see the sacrifice.
Very telling and honest words.
Yes, there was no actual sacrifice, very honest indeed.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"If this omniscient god knows that you will drink a glass of water at 3:08pm tomorrow afternoon, what will you do tomorrow at 3:08pm in the afternoon?
*You will be thirsty by your own thought process and drink something of your choice.
If this omniscient god knows that you will drink a glass of water at 3:08pm tomorrow afternoon, what will you do tomorrow at 3:08pm in the afternoon?
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

GAYtheist

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"If this omniscient god knows that you will drink a glass of water at 3:08pm tomorrow afternoon, what will you do tomorrow at 3:08pm in the afternoon?
*You will be thirsty by your own thought process and drink something of your choice.
:facepalm:
"It is my view that the atomic bomb is only slightly less dangerous than religion." John Paschal, myself.

"The problem with humanity is not that we are all born inherently stupid, that's just common knowledge. No, the problem with humanity is that 95% of us never grow out of it." John Paschal, myself

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: "Davin"I've been to the source, it LITERALLY says that god commanded Abraham to kill his son, and never LITERALLY says that Abraham knew god was lying to him.
Care to quote what you claim?
Quote from: "Davin"Sure, it was funny that you're poor argument tactics were no different than the ones used by the majority of theists I've talked to.
Have you noticed a trend then?  One might say you're employing the same counter-argument and thus the same argument is all you'll get.  That and you keep going which says even more.
Quote from: "Davin"Yes, there was no actual sacrifice, very honest indeed.
Honest as ignorance can be.
Quote from: "Davin"If this omniscient god knows that you will drink a glass of water at 3:08pm tomorrow afternoon, what will you do tomorrow at 3:08pm in the afternoon?
Oh...I see now how you don't see things...you missed my answer entirely.

*You will be thirsty by your own thought process and drink something of your choice.

Davin

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"I've been to the source, it LITERALLY says that god commanded Abraham to kill his son, and never LITERALLY says that Abraham knew god was lying to him.
Care to quote what you claim?
Sure:
[spoiler:2jvfjpar]
Quote from: "Gen 22:1-19"1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”

   â€œHere I am,” he replied.

 2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you loveâ€"Isaacâ€"and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

 3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

 6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”

   â€œYes, my son?” Abraham replied.

   â€œThe fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

 8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

 9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

   â€œHere I am,” he replied.

 12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

 13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram[a] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided.”

 15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,[c] because you have obeyed me.”

 19 Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.
[/spoiler:2jvfjpar]

The god commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac as a burnt offering, then says that because Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac, that the god blessed him.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"Sure, it was funny that you're poor argument tactics were no different than the ones used by the majority of theists I've talked to.
Have you noticed a trend then?  One might say you're employing the same counter-argument and thus the same argument is all you'll get.  That and you keep going which says even more.
Can you predict my behavior as well as I can predict yours?
My persistence in this says what? I guarantee that you'll be wrong with this assumption as well.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"Yes, there was no actual sacrifice, very honest indeed.
Honest as ignorance can be.
Which is far more honest than being ignorant yet claiming knowledge.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"If this omniscient god knows that you will drink a glass of water at 3:08pm tomorrow afternoon, what will you do tomorrow at 3:08pm in the afternoon?
Oh...I see now how you don't see things...you missed my answer entirely.

*You will be thirsty by your own thought process and drink something of your choice.
That's not an action. Why can't you just answer the question?
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: "Davin"The god commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac as a burnt offering, then says that because Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac, that the god blessed him.
There are at least two indications of Abraham's faith.
1.  "...We will worship and then we will come back to you."
2.  ""God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son."
Abraham knew whatever had to be done, he would return with his son.
Quote from: "Davin"Can you predict my behavior as well as I can predict yours?
I don't try to.  I give you a bit more credit than you give me.
Quote from: "Davin"My persistence in this says what? I guarantee that you'll be wrong with this assumption as well.
Some sort of pleasure.
Quote from: "Davin"Which is far more honest than being ignorant yet claiming knowledge.
But you have made a decision on the matter without being informed on the whole of the matter.  
Quote from: "Davin"That's not an action. Why can't you just answer the question?
I have answered it.  Plainly.  Drinking is not an action?  You just don't like the answer.

*You will be thirsty by your own thought process and drink something of your choice.

Davin

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"The god commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac as a burnt offering, then says that because Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac, that the god blessed him.
There are at least two indications of Abraham's faith.
1.  "...We will worship and then we will come back to you."
2.  ""God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son."
Abraham knew whatever had to be done, he would return with his son.
And the evidence against that that more supports that Abraham was just lying to the servants as well as to Isaac:
1) Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you loveâ€"Isaacâ€"and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

2) 9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

3) 12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

4) 15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,[c] because you have obeyed me.”

So either Abraham was lying to the servants and Isaac or the god was lying when the god said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son[...]".

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"Can you predict my behavior as well as I can predict yours?
I don't try to.  I give you a bit more credit than you give me.
I doubt that, you already stated lies about me, at least I've never lied about you.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"My persistence in this says what? I guarantee that you'll be wrong with this assumption as well.
Some sort of pleasure.
My persistence in this says, "Some sort of pleasure."? That does not make sense.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"Which is far more honest than being ignorant yet claiming knowledge.
But you have made a decision on the matter without being informed on the whole of the matter.
Which part of the matter am I not informed on? What evidence do you have for any part of this matter?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"That's not an action. Why can't you just answer the question?
I have answered it.  Plainly.  Drinking is not an action?  You just don't like the answer.

*You will be thirsty by your own thought process and drink something of your choice.
You can only perform one action: the action the god that created everything knows you will do. Perhaps you can explain how you get to free will from a god that created everything knowing exactly how everything will be.

If I set up a bunch of dominos, I know which way they will fall, if I put some AI in each domino to make them to think that the way they will fall is the way they "wanted" to fall and was their free choice. It just so happens that they "want" to fall the same direction I designed them to fall in. I think this analogy more matches an all knowing god that created everything. Perhaps you can give an analogy that better describes how you propose free will to exist when a god created everything knowing exactly how everything will be.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: "Davin"So either Abraham was lying to the servants and Isaac or the god was lying when the god said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son[...]".
Lying or confident in God's word.  God lied?  How so.  If God swore by himself (by His own name...heh, back to the religious exclamations topic) that Abraham was blest because he was willing to sacrifice his own son to God?  God blest him becasue of his faith, not because of daring to go through with the task.  Never was God intending that Abraham actually sacrifice his son.  It was exactly as the Bible states...a test to see how much Abraham trusted God and a lesson on what it would take to reconcile humanity back to God.  Not the sacrifice of a created being, but a sacrifice of God Himself.
Quote from: "Davin"I doubt that, you already stated lies about me, at least I've never lied about you.
I have not lied.  You claim as I said, you dismiss evidence.  Full stop.
Quote from: "Davin"My persistence in this says, "Some sort of pleasure."? That does not make sense.
Really?  Persistence in this says you must gain some sort of pleasure out of it...out of persisting in this, you must gain some sort of pleasure.

Another point that you cannot see, but is quite out in the open?
Quote from: "Davin"Which part of the matter am I not informed on? What evidence do you have for any part of this matter?
You tell me, then, how is God's death a sacrifice.  Explain to me the Gospel.  How is it God is legally able to reconcile humanity back by His death?  Lots of things I'm not sure whether you know or not.  At least, one should be able to explain these points as they are well documented in scripture.  You are free to disagree, but disagree with the substance of the story and not just a listing from an internet search of "bible contradictions".  Those are many and easily found.
Quote from: "Davin"You can only perform one action: the action the god that created everything knows you will do. Perhaps you can explain how you get to free will from a god that created everything knowing exactly how everything will be.
He knows, he doesn't dictate.  Knowing the outcome is not dictating the outcome.  Given an almanac of the last century's happenings.  Does the knowledge of who will win the Superbowl dictate who will win the superbowl by design?  No.  Likewise, while God has created everything, those given free will are able to do as they choose from whatever there is to choose from, be it drinks, clothing to put on, shower or not shower...choosing God or not choosing God.
Quote from: "Davin"If I set up a bunch of dominos, I know which way they will fall, if I put some AI in each domino to make them to think that the way they will fall is the way they "wanted" to fall and was their free choice. It just so happens that they "want" to fall the same direction I designed them to fall in. I think this analogy more matches an all knowing god that created everything. Perhaps you can give an analogy that better describes how you propose free will to exist when a god created everything knowing exactly how everything will be.
Not quite.  Dominoes will not fall unless a force is acted upon them in one direction or another.  Falling is not the factor.  All have fallen and all are in need of being lifted up.  You and I are a free thinking entity.  We are both able to decide on our own which belief is better for our own findings...if any belief at all.  There are many ways of falling, but only one way to God if that be your own desire.  You have the same information I do and you choose differently than I do.  We are free to choose.  God knows ultimately, but His knowledge does not necessarily dictate our choice.

Can you choose other than what God knows?  Yes.  You have the ability to choose as you wish.  it is YOUR CHOICE.

*You will be thirsty by your own thought process and drink something of your choice to quench the thirst.  What you drink is entirely up to you.  You can choose whatever your heart desires.

Stevil

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"So either Abraham was lying to the servants and Isaac or the god was lying when the god said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son[...]".
Lying or confident in God's word.  God lied?  How so.  If God swore by himself (by His own name...heh, back to the religious exclamations topic) that Abraham was blest because he was willing to sacrifice his own son to God?  God blest him becasue of his faith, not because of daring to go through with the task.  Never was God intending that Abraham actually sacrifice his son.  It was exactly as the Bible states...a test to see how much Abraham trusted God and a lesson on what it would take to reconcile humanity back to God.  Not the sacrifice of a created being, but a sacrifice of God Himself.
I feel that the Abraham character was likely lying to everyone because that is what you do when you take someone out back to kill them, especially if that someone doesn't know about it, and you want it to be a surprise.

I have no doubt that the god character did not intend for Abraham to kill his son. That is not what I  have a problem with. I have a problem with the god character getting the Abraham character to intend to kill his son simply because the god character ask it of him. It was cruel and unnecessary. I would never ask my young daughter to kill her kitten simply to prove to me that she loves me more. Even if I stopped her going through with it, it would be a terrible, awefull, horrific and disgusting thing for a parent to do. It would leave scars on that childs mind forever and if the kitten was capable of thinking about it then it would be right it feeling pretty pissed.

If it is up for interpretation, (and from what I have read, it seems that many, many people have an interpretation and opinion) well, mine is that the story is a lesson to the followers to do as they are darn well told. To have faith in authority and second guess your own judgement. It is about obidience and developing a dependancy in the bible, church, spiritual advisor...
This is my opinion. You can call me naive and ignorant if you disagree and I can throw the same insults back on you and your opinion. But in the end we should focus on the story and not on each other, we are different people with different backgrounds and hence more than likely to differ in alot of our opinions. All I ask is for tolerance.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: "Stevil"I feel that the Abraham character was likely lying to everyone because that is what you do when you take someone out back to kill them, especially if that someone doesn't know about it, and you want it to be a surprise.
I can see this to some degree, but it seems the bigger picture is missed.  You are forgetting that this is an account of an event that happened and while all the necessary information is in place, not every detail is relayed, nor is it necessarily needed.  If we take this as it is, there are two witnesses, the two servants, that are present and would have seen and could've testified that Abraham went up with his son and came down without him and they never saw his son again, had the sacrifice gone as the human sees it.  However we have the faith of Abraham shown twice that, 1.  He and his son would return and 2. that God would provide the sacrifice.
Quote from: "Stevil"I have no doubt that the god character did not intend for Abraham to kill his son. That is not what I  have a problem with. I have a problem with the god character getting the Abraham character to intend to kill his son simply because the god character ask it of him. It was cruel and unnecessary.
Cruel and unnecessary.  Well, I'd agree with cruel, but definitely necessary when one looks at the context of the point.  Never would God have allowed Abraham to sacrifice his own son because it is not through human blood that we (humanity) are reconciled back to God.  The cruelty is what is required to be reconciled back when sin enters into the picture.
Quote from: "Stevil"I would never ask my young daughter to kill her kitten simply to prove to me that she loves me more. Even if I stopped her going through with it, it would be a terrible, awefull, horrific and disgusting thing for a parent to do. It would leave scars on that childs mind forever and if the kitten was capable of thinking about it then it would be right it feeling pretty pissed.
Again, one must look at this (as best one can) through different eyes or from a different perspective.  First of all the culture was different than we know now.  It would be terrible, awful, horrific and disgusting for a human to ask for a life sacrifice to prove love.  God asked, but doesn't require it from us.  We should be willing to give up everything for Him...and the thing about God is that whatever we lose here in this life, can be returned to us better in the next.  This is why Abraham had confidence in doing as God asked.  He knew God would provide the sacrifice as had been taught to them from the time of Adam and Eve.  
Quote from: "Stevil"If it is up for interpretation, (and from what I have read, it seems that many, many people have an interpretation and opinion) well, mine is that the story is a lesson to the followers to do as they are darn well told. To have faith in authority and second guess your own judgement. It is about obidience and developing a dependancy in the bible, church, spiritual advisor...
This is my opinion. You can call me naive and ignorant if you disagree and I can throw the same insults back on you and your opinion. But in the end we should focus on the story and not on each other, we are different people with different backgrounds and hence more than likely to differ in alot of our opinions. All I ask is for tolerance.
I wouldn't fault your interpretation as you seem to have it almost "right" (IMHO).  If God is who He says He is, then we should follow as He darn well tells us.  If He created us and this universe, then He knows best and is that which sustains life.  We are not to be dependant on the Bible, but the Bible points us to God in whom we should, then, be dependant on.  *You'll get no insults from me when you make an honest try at least in understanding.  I'm not sure I've sent any insults to anyone, but if I have, I do apologize.

Davin

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"So either Abraham was lying to the servants and Isaac or the god was lying when the god said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son[...]".
Lying or confident in God's word.  God lied?  How so.  If God swore by himself (by His own name...heh, back to the religious exclamations topic) that Abraham was blest because he was willing to sacrifice his own son to God?  God blest him becasue of his faith, not because of daring to go through with the task.  Never was God intending that Abraham actually sacrifice his son.  It was exactly as the Bible states...a test to see how much Abraham trusted God and a lesson on what it would take to reconcile humanity back to God.  Not the sacrifice of a created being, but a sacrifice of God Himself.
Which is not the same as Abraham having faith that god didn't really want him to kill his son, that part is not in the bible. The god would be lying if he said that Abraham was willing to kill his son but Abraham wasn't really willing to kill his son because he thought the god would stop him.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"I doubt that, you already stated lies about me, at least I've never lied about you.
I have not lied.  You claim as I said, you dismiss evidence.  Full stop.
No, you lied about the reasons I dismiss evidence. You're fine up to this:
Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"You just said you dismiss evidence. That's my whole point.
Your lying comes after:
Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"You dismiss that which you care not to delve deeper into and find the core reason you dismiss it. You dismiss the Bible because "God asked a man to sacrifice his son." Full Stop. You dismiss the end of the story, the meaning of it and the reasons why God did it. It's your choice and perogative to disagree, but don't disagree and therefore dismiss the evidence when you've not even searched the evidence. It's like if you're an archaeologist digging for ancient civilizations. You jab the spade into the dirt, uncover more dirt...and move on to another location. You know where to look, you simply have potholed the Bible and so dismissed its claim(s) on superficial knowledge of what says.
That is you making shit up and lying. Why are you so dishonest?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"My persistence in this says, "Some sort of pleasure."? That does not make sense.
Really?  Persistence in this says you must gain some sort of pleasure out of it...out of persisting in this, you must gain some sort of pleasure.
That makes a lot more sense, but is wrong.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Davin"Which part of the matter am I not informed on? What evidence do you have for any part of this matter?
You tell me, then, how is God's death a sacrifice.
Because this god cannot die, you need to explain how this god pretending to die is a sacrifice.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Explain to me the Gospel.
Which one?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"How is it God is legally able to reconcile humanity back by His death?  Lots of things I'm not sure whether you know or not.  At least, one should be able to explain these points as they are well documented in scripture.  You are free to disagree, but disagree with the substance of the story and not just a listing from an internet search of "bible contradictions".  Those are many and easily found.
I shouldn't have to tell you, you're the Christian, you're supposed to tell me. This is just as stupid as me asking you why I'm an atheist.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"He knows, he doesn't dictate.  Knowing the outcome is not dictating the outcome.  Given an almanac of the last century's happenings.  Does the knowledge of who will win the Superbowl dictate who will win the superbowl by design?  No.  Likewise, while God has created everything, those given free will are able to do as they choose from whatever there is to choose from, be it drinks, clothing to put on, shower or not shower...choosing God or not choosing God.

Not quite.  Dominoes will not fall unless a force is acted upon them in one direction or another.  Falling is not the factor.  All have fallen and all are in need of being lifted up.  You and I are a free thinking entity.  We are both able to decide on our own which belief is better for our own findings...if any belief at all.  There are many ways of falling, but only one way to God if that be your own desire.  You have the same information I do and you choose differently than I do.  We are free to choose.  God knows ultimately, but His knowledge does not necessarily dictate our choice.
How does this explain how a god that created everything while knowing how everything will be and the choices people will make based on how the god created everything leads to free will. Essentially all you've said is that the god made everything, knows everything and for no explainable reason, we have free will. Just saying something isn't enough, you need to explain it. All you've done is merely assert that there is free will in spite of the god that created everything knows exactly everything everyone will choose. Your mere assertions are the problem with people accepting the concept.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Can you choose other than what God knows?  Yes.  You have the ability to choose as you wish.  it is YOUR CHOICE.
So the god doesn't know everything because people can choose to do something the god does not know they will do.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: "Davin"Which is not the same as Abraham having faith that god didn't really want him to kill his son, that part is not in the bible. The god would be lying if he said that Abraham was willing to kill his son but Abraham wasn't really willing to kill his son because he thought the god would stop him.
Neither is the part that God requires us to sacrifice our sons and daughters for salvation.  It was a test to one man which in turn serves as a test to us all.  What are we willing to give up if God is God?  If not everything, then He is not our God.  Again, to fully understand the context of this is to at least understand the basics which *you may not even know since it seems *your knowledge of Christianity is superficial.
Quote from: "Davin"That is you making shit up and lying. Why are you so dishonest?
If this is making shit up, lying and being dishonest, then prove it wrong and support some of your superficial claims against Christianity with some actual understanding of what these accounts of the past mean, how we should put them into practice, if at all, and/or how it relates to our beliefs and hope.  No one says that to understand it from this context is to believe it.
Quote from: "Davin"That makes a lot more sense, but is wrong.
It made the same sense the first time and is not wrong because you would not be here on HAF if there was absolutely no pleasure to gain from it.  At most, it's partially wrong, but not completely.
Quote from: "Davin"Because this god cannot die, you need to explain how this god pretending to die is a sacrifice.
Another point at which you have no understanding and so you make more assertions.  So you dismissing evidence stands quite firm.

Quote from: "Davin"
Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Explain to me the Gospel.
Which one?
The one according to your understanding from scripture.  YOUR interpretation.
Quote from: "Davin"I shouldn't have to tell you, you're the Christian, you're supposed to tell me. This is just as stupid as me asking you why I'm an atheist.
I'm not here to tell you, and you've not asked me to tell you.
Quote from: "Davin"How does this explain how a god that created everything while knowing how everything will be and the choices people will make based on how the god created everything leads to free will.
Who said it all leads to free will?  It's becoming evident you simply don't understand simple concepts.
Quote from: "Davin"Essentially all you've said is that the god made everything, knows everything and for no explainable reason, we have free will.
I'm sure you're just as able to point at every single change in evolutionary history to prove exactly how humanity came about.  Explain the gaps to the same satisfaction you're asking here and I'll explain the "for no explainable reason" to you.  Hold your own beliefs up to the same scrutiny as you request me to hold mine.
Quote from: "Davin"Just saying something isn't enough, you need to explain it. All you've done is merely assert that there is free will in spite of the god that created everything knows exactly everything everyone will choose. Your mere assertions are the problem with people accepting the concept.
Have you heard some scientists trying to explain evolutionary beliefs?  Much the same as you claim against the Christian belief here.  Much the same.  Assertions that this came to this, then...opps, there's nothing here for a few million years, but then we have this so this is what came of that...and voila...Humans!
Quote from: "Davin"So the god doesn't know everything because people can choose to do something the god does not know they will do.
Every person is free to choose whatever they themselves see as fit to choose.

Stevil

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"We should be willing to give up everything for Him...and the thing about God is that whatever we lose here in this life, can be returned to us better in the next.
This is the dangerous bit. This is what I had pointed out before to which your response was that I was ignorant. So, we have now come full circle.
My point is that if you think your god has demanded something from you that you and/or your society would deem as detrimental or deplorable (e.g. kill a family member) then you need to be really sure that this demand/request has in actual fact come from your god and not some other source and that your god is indeed what you think your god is.

I can see why some people end up going to prison for doing things that they had perceived came as a message from god. A friend of mine had a flatmate that was on medication to stop his voices. He thought god was talking to him through the TV set. This stuff happens and combined with the Christian stance you have presented above, it becomes very dangerous.