The Futile Arguments Thread

[defendor]

Probably not ha

[Tank]

Probably not ha

Perfectly acceptable. But now please answer question 1 and the two complimentary questions.

EDIT: Brought the post forward as we are on a new page.

Let's do a little test on free will shall we.

I am going to set you all a little task, it is uncomfortable, bordering on painful, you don't have to do it, but if you don't then I will consider you a wuss.

Take a small bowl of wet ice cubes and a towel. Place the towel on the table and place either hand palm down on the towel. Take an ice cube in the other hand and circle it around on the back of the hand on the towel. Continue until you can not stand the discomfort using multiple ice cubes if needed.

Answer one of the following questions:

1) If you didn't take the test why didn't you?
2) If you did take the test why did you?
3) If you did take the test why did you stop when you did?

Now that I have planted this idea in your mind what are you going to do?
Which element of your behaviour constitutes, or not, you exercising free will?

[defendor]

I imagined myself doing the test.  I thought that putting ice on my hand was unnecessary and decided against it because that was an option.

[Tank]

I imagined myself doing the test.  I thought that putting ice on my hand was unnecessary and decided against it because that was an option.

So you didn't do the test. Okay. Let's see what some other people say.

[Whitney]

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

But...I didn't take the test because I hate the feel of ice on my skin (know this from experience with basically performing the test due to trying to ice sports injuries).

[Stevil]

The fact that He knows not all will choose does not take away the point that ALL CAN by their own choice.

I cannot choose to love the Christian god. I cannot choose to love something that I don't even think exists. Something that I have never met, never interacted with. Something that by your definition, chooses not to talk to me, chooses not to even let me know that it exists. How can I know your god enough to love it, when it doesn't even exist? Maybe during the last two thousand years it actually died. Maybe there isn't a god anymore. I can't fall in love with a corpse, one whose legacy is a very old book which preaches intolerance, injustice, death and war. Stories about this thing that murders people in mass (the great flood), rapes a woman (Mary), lies to my ancestors and punishes me for them falling for its cruel trap (Adam and Eve). There is nothing to love about the creature you call God. This book that tells me I am nothing more than a sinner, unworthy of the perfect god, who for some bizzare reason is in my image but without any kind of physicallity whatsoever and hence no need for physical attributes such as mouth, eyes, hair, nose, feet etc. A book that tells me I am evil and doomed for not believing in something that refuses to reveal itself to me.

[AverageJoe]

I cannot choose to love the Christian god. I cannot choose to love something that I don't even think exists. Something that I have never met, never interacted with. Something that by your definition, chooses not to talk to me, chooses not to even let me know that it exists. How can I know your god enough to love it, when it doesn't even exist? Maybe during the last two thousand years it actually died. Maybe there isn't a god anymore. I can't fall in love with a corpse, one whose legacy is a very old book which preaches intolerance, injustice, death and war. Stories about this thing that murders people in mass (the great flood), rapes a woman (Mary), lies to my ancestors and punishes me for them falling for its cruel trap (Adam and Eve). There is nothing to love about the creature you call God. This book that tells me I am nothing more than a sinner, unworthy of the perfect god, who for some bizzare reason is in my image but without any kind of physicallity whatsoever and hence no need for physical attributes such as mouth, eyes, hair, nose, feet etc. A book that tells me I am evil and doomed for not believing in something that refuses to reveal itself to me.

When you put it as succinctly as that, I wonder how any Christians can continue to believe in God?

I'm actually beginning to theorise that God believers are mentally ill, because they suffer from delusions that they really believe are true.

I can overlook the fact that they sound stupid everytime they open their mouths, as many people do.

[Tank]

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

But...I didn't take the test because I hate the feel of ice on my skin (know this from experience with basically performing the test due to trying to ice sports injuries).

A good joke is revealed by the punch line, it sort of sneaks up on you and when you hear it all that has gone before is placed in context and makes sense. So stick with it for a couple of more responses.

[Stevil]

Answer one of the following questions:

1) If you didn't take the test why didn't you?
2) If you did take the test why did you?
3) If you did take the test why did you stop when you did?

Now that I have planted this idea in your mind what are you going to do?
Which element of your behaviour constitutes, or not, you exercising free will?

OK, now I'm interested.
I went for option 1.
I didn't do it, because I didn't understand what the goal was and hence didn't gain enough buy-in to acheive a sufficient level of motivation to carry out the act. I could imagine that I would feel silly doing the act, my wife would think I am nuts doing something that people on the computer would never have known if I truly did it or not.
I doubt I would have learned anything from doing the act, yeah, ice is cold and gets wet when it melts. Pfft.
Time is also limited for me at the moment, dealing with a relatively new born.
So what's up with the ice, the towel, the hands? Where's the punch line? Its the week-end I need a good laugh, too much gloom on TV with the stories of the Christchurch earthquake.

[LegendarySandwich]

When you put it as succinctly as that, I wonder how any Christians can continue to believe in God?

I'm actually beginning to theorise that God believers are mentally ill, because they suffer from delusions that they really believe are true.

I can overlook the fact that they sound stupid everytime they open their mouths, as many people do.

And here we have a prime example of an arrogant, jerkish, naive atheist, who chooses to label himself a "extreme atheist", whatever that's supposed to mean.

[AverageJoe]

When you put it as succinctly as that, I wonder how any Christians can continue to believe in God?

I'm actually beginning to theorise that God believers are mentally ill, because they suffer from delusions that they really believe are true.

I can overlook the fact that they sound stupid everytime they open their mouths, as many people do.

And here we have a prime example of an arrogant, jerkish, naive atheist, who chooses to label himself a "extreme atheist", whatever that's supposed to mean.

Extreme atheist = 100% certainty of no God. No caveats, no "can't say for sure", no doubts. That's all it means, nothing more. Maybe I should re label myself so you don't get so worked up about it. Actually no, you can FRO.

Naive? You're going to have to spell that one out, there is no naivety in anything I say.

Thanks for pigeonholing me, I hope it satisfied you.

[LegendarySandwich]

Extreme atheist = 100% certainty of no God. No caveats, no "can't say for sure", no doubts. That's all it means, nothing more. Maybe I should re label myself so you don't get so worked up about it. Actually no, you can FRO.

Most people refer to that as strong atheism.

Naive? You're going to have to spell that one out, there is no naivety in anything I say.

That statement in itself is naive.

You're naivety comes from your "all religious people are dumb, stupid, deluded and crazy and I'm so much smarter" attitude.

[AverageJoe]

Most people refer to that as strong atheism.

So I call myself extreme atheist. You know it as strong atheism. I don't really see what difference it makes whether I call myself a strong or extreme atheist?

I'd always thought a strong atheist might still have the "but I can't say for certain there is no God" caveat despite having strong atheism. I reject that caveat, hence I called myself extreme.

If strong atheists also reject the notion that "I can't say for certain that there is no God" then I'd be a strong atheist not an extreme atheist, and I'll change my label, if you like.

Naive? You're going to have to spell that one out, there is no naivety in anything I say.

Look, I'm not naive. Maybe I don't have a way with words that some people have, but there you go

You're naivety comes from your "all religious people are dumb, stupid, deluded and crazy and I'm so much smarter" attitude.

I never said I was smarter.

However, I find it hard to argue that religious people aren't stupid and deluded, they believe in fairies.

Some are even convinced they have spoken to the God fairy, others are convinced that he has shown himself to them. Somebody tell me how that is not a delusion? And how thinking it is delusion makes me naive?

[AnimatedDirt]

The fact that He knows not all will choose does not take away the point that ALL CAN by their own choice.

I cannot choose to love the Christian god. I cannot choose to love something that I don't even think exists. Something that I have never met, never interacted with. Something that by your definition, chooses not to talk to me, chooses not to even let me know that it exists. How can I know your god enough to love it, when it doesn't even exist? Maybe during the last two thousand years it actually died. Maybe there isn't a god anymore. I can't fall in love with a corpse, one whose legacy is a very old book which preaches intolerance, injustice, death and war. Stories about this thing that murders people in mass (the great flood), rapes a woman (Mary), lies to my ancestors and punishes me for them falling for its cruel trap (Adam and Eve). There is nothing to love about the creature you call God. This book that tells me I am nothing more than a sinner, unworthy of the perfect god, who for some bizzare reason is in my image but without any kind of physicallity whatsoever and hence no need for physical attributes such as mouth, eyes, hair, nose, feet etc. A book that tells me I am evil and doomed for not believing in something that refuses to reveal itself to me.

It's quite obvious you have not read the Bible as even a piece of literature.  You are quite right, however, the Bible is full of lots of things as you list.  The difference is not that it TEACHES to act as such, but that the presence of Evil in humanity is the cause.  It's not to teach these actions, but that no matter the sin, ANYONE can be reconciled.  This "thing that murders" is also the Thing that is able to bring back from death.  Judgment is brought down on people, some sooner than later.  Raped a woman?  Maybe you need to speak to some rape victims about their rape and the child they may have brought into this world as a result.  Then trickle back in to the pages to read about Mary and Joseph.  Cruel trap...again you miss the point of freewill.  It's the ability to choose from all options available.  If one is intentionally left out, then it's not freewill.

Since you brought it up the point, the answer will sound preachy.  Anyone not wanting to read "preachy" disregard the following couple of sentences.  It's not meant as such, but simply an answer to a point brought up.  I've intentionally kept it short in hopes that it wont be seen as going against the rules.  Moderators, please let me know.

We are all sinners and in fact SO worthy to God, He sent His Son to bear our sins for us and suffer death as a created being.  SO worthy He has not abandoned us to simply live and die, but has made a way possible to be reconciled back to the position of Adam and Eve prior to taking the fruit.

You and me are not Evil, but are infected with it.  Quite a difference.

Refuses to reveal itself?  As faint as the knock is, He's knocking.  It's up to us to remove whatever is drowning out the knock.  It simply goes back to the tired words, "Seek and you will find..."  Considering the points above, if you have read the Bible, it wasn't for the purpose of seeking, but for finding ammunition.

[AnimatedDirt]

When you put it as succinctly as that, I wonder how any Christians can continue to believe in God?

I'm actually beginning to theorise that God believers are mentally ill, because they suffer from delusions that they really believe are true.

I can overlook the fact that they sound stupid everytime they open their mouths, as many people do.

The points brought up by Stevil are points that have been brought up out of context and easily shown to be from a twisting interpretation.

Your theory that God believers are mentally ill and suffer from delusions...is appreciated.

I'm wondering how you have come to know the sound of "stupid"?...and also thank you for you kind words.