The Futile Arguments Thread

[defendor]

This wording doesn't sit well with me.  It seems to suggest that God simply then chose to not execute His justice.  Impossible.

God's justice/wrath is not acted out on me because He (God) placed His wrath and judged Christ in our stead.  In no way does God excuse His justice, but rather His justice was instead acted out on Christ, in whom if we believe/trust/have faith in Him, we are "dead" and the wage of sin is paid.

Ya I completely agree, I think you were able to expound on it greater than I. He excuses his justice, *for the elect*, by the sacrifice of Christ, which absorbed the wrath of God.

[Event_Horizon]

I don't buy the whole Jesus as a sacrifice thing, it just makes no sense.

If God were all loving and forgiving, there would be no reason for a sacrifice at all. Jesus is just the middle man.

As far as what the Bible says, God was the one who messed up in the first place by making the tree accessible, or making the tree at all, and punishing humanity for it. God had ample opportunities to fix the mess he made many times along the way, but instead he decides to sacrifice himself to himself, then blackmail the human race for it. Humans aren't any better off after Jesus because instead of being sinful, we just owe Jesus.

Look beyond what it says, and look at what it means. The Bible says we diverse punishment for the crimes of our ancestors; that is not justice. Then we are to believe that our punishment can be carried out on an innocent bystander and absolve us of responsibility; that is also not justice. Then we are to devote ourselves to that bystander because of something we didn't do, for a redemption we didn't ask for; that is not justice. Not only that, but owe our creator devotion, and even though we have free will, we will be punished if we make the "wrong" choice. Well why give us free will in the first place, asshole? Save is a bunch of F'n trouble and turn us into zombies, we'd stop killing each other over religion. Speaking of that punishment, how is an infinite punishment justice if it's for a finite lifetime? Even if I kill a quadrillion people, an infinite punishment would be excessive. Any infinite punishment is excessive; that is not justice.

As far as good vs evil, did God make the morals, or were the morals already there and God just stated them? Classic ethical problem that theists have a hard time solving. There is no Good and Evil, only what works and what doesn't. Homosexuality didn't work for a primitive people, so they called it evil. In our society homosexuality works and is therefore not evil. Helping people works, so it's not evil. Killing people doesn't work so it's evil.

[Stevil]

So, going by your explaination above it seems that I myself am one of the most evil things on the planet if the Christian god exists. If god is casting a frame of "light" around the world and since this light is not touching me in any way, then although I am not changed, not different, just simply framed I have become as evil as anything else could possibly be.

Well no, you yourself are not evil at all (in my understanding of Christian dogma).  Rather it's atheism which is evil.  The good which emanates from the Christian god "illuminates" you whether you acknowledge its existence or not.

I think I understand now,

The light represents Good coming from the source of Good which is the Christian god (perhaps I should use "God" with a capital "G" to mean the Christian god, do they not agree that the name is YHWH?)
It seems that the darkness (or shadow) is not Evil and those in it are not Evil. That area simply represents the places that God's Good doesn't get to. The object ([strike:2jkrjbuy]Rock?[/strike:2jkrjbuy]rock?) obscuring the light (Good) is the thing that is Evil. So in the hypothetical world where God exists the rock would actually be the things that obscure God's Good.
So there are people who know of God's Good, these people are in the light, however some of them will choose not to accept God's Good, this does not mean that they are Evil.
There are people (inclusive of Atheists) who do not know of God's Good, these people are in the darkness (shadow), they too are not evil.
So it seems that people are neither Good nor Evil and neither are their actions. Good is simply the presence of God's Good.
No, that doesn't sound right.
Hmmmm.
Good is the light cast by God.
No, sorry, mixing up the analogy with the [strike:2jkrjbuy]Hypothetical[/strike:2jkrjbuy] hypothetical (sorry, going capitalisation crazy here).

Good is knowledge of God.
No, still doesn't seem right

Good is belief in God.

No.

Good is [strike:2jkrjbuy]having[/strike:2jkrjbuy] the Bible or Christians [strike:2jkrjbuy]at ones disposal[/strike:2jkrjbuy] who can enlighten with regards to [strike:2jkrjbuy]knowledge[/strike:2jkrjbuy] concepts regarding God. In someway that would include this Atheist website, I have certainly learned a lot about Christianity from here, so this site is Good.
Evil is the objects or people or concepts that result in people not having access to Good. e.g. the Chinese government a few years back when they banned religion, or people's desire to have proof or God's lack of proof on offer, or peoples belief in other gods, or peoples isolation from Christians and/or the bible and/or this website.

But it seems strange that one's actions can't be classified as Good or Evil. E.g. giving money to charity or snatching candy from a small child.

Image doesn't necessarily mean physical

Oh my. Now I don't think I will be able to understand this concept.

I'm not sure that the above was addressed to me.  Analogies obviously are not physical things though, and aren't governed by physical realities.

This was meant for AD, sorry my [strike:2jkrjbuy]bad[/strike:2jkrjbuy] [strike:2jkrjbuy]Evil[/strike:2jkrjbuy] mistake.

[AnimatedDirt]

I don't buy the whole Jesus as a sacrifice thing, it just makes no sense.

If God were all loving and forgiving, there would be no reason for a sacrifice at all. Jesus is just the middle man.

God is Love and God is also Judge (among other aspects of His nature).  If so, then there MUST be legal action.  The wrath of God (the legal action, if you will) is the placement of Sin on Christ and subsequently, the death of Christ.  The Love of God is that He, Himself pays the price He, Himself as Judge must uphold.  His omni-Love is fulfilled and His omni-Judge is satisfied.  Case closed.  Now think in terms of a Class-Action Suit (I'm no expert on civil law, so I hope this analogy fits).  Judgment has been rendered, the question remains if you want to be part of the class-action.

I've received at least one letter of a class-action suit that apparently I might've gained in some respect.  To gain, I must add my name, provide some proof that I purchased an item, or paid for a service, was prescribed a certain medication, and I'd be added.  The letter alwasys states "not all are guaranteed to collect"...but in this cosmic class-action, ALL can be added and ALL that do, will be given the gift.

[Davin]

I don't buy the whole Jesus as a sacrifice thing, it just makes no sense.

If God were all loving and forgiving, there would be no reason for a sacrifice at all. Jesus is just the middle man.

God is Love and God is also Judge (among other aspects of His nature).  If so, then there MUST be legal action.  The wrath of God (the legal action, if you will) is the placement of Sin on Christ and subsequently, the death of Christ.  The Love of God is that He, Himself pays the price He, Himself as Judge must uphold.  His omni-Love is fulfilled and His omni-Judge is satisfied.  Case closed.  Now think in terms of a Class-Action Suit (I'm no expert on civil law, so I hope this analogy fits).  Judgment has been rendered, the question remains if you want to be part of the class-action.

I've received at least one letter of a class-action suit that apparently I might've gained in some respect.  To gain, I must add my name, provide some proof that I purchased an item, or paid for a service, was prescribed a certain medication, and I'd be added.  The letter alwasys states "not all are guaranteed to collect"...but in this cosmic class-action, ALL can be added and ALL that do, will be given the gift.

I understand this is your belief, the problem I have is simply that the letter doesn't exist or if it does exist, it looks like a scam. So it's like someone thinking that there really is a class-action lawsuit somewhere, and that thinking that it's real and wanting to be on a list for it results in them getting rewarded. Also, merely not thinking that the law suit is real, means that you get sentenced to a Turkish prison forever.

[AnimatedDirt]

I understand this is your belief, the problem I have is simply that the letter doesn't exist or if it does exist, it looks like a scam.

The letter is presented to all in the form of the Bible, and in one nutshell, John 3:16.  There is plenty of reason to believe and plenty of reason to disbelieve.  Therein lies the beauty of freewill/free choice.  You are not overwhelmed with "proof" (well, you are in a sense) and so you make your own choice.  You cannot blame anyone but your own intelligence.  It is you making the decision and you alone.

So it's like someone thinking that there really is a class-action lawsuit somewhere, and that thinking that it's real and wanting to be on a list for it results in them getting rewarded.

So in your mind, we are deluded.  No problem.

Also, merely not thinking that the law suit is real, means that you get sentenced to a Turkish prison forever.

Quite right.  If you lack the will to be added, you don't get the reward.  You are 100% correct.  And I think most of Atheism, as I hear it, is happy with this, that being that even IF God exists as suggested in the Bible, and there is this plan of salvation, most of *you (general to Strong Atheism) don't want anything to do with it anyway.  Is this not correct?

[Davin]

I understand this is your belief, the problem I have is simply that the letter doesn't exist or if it does exist, it looks like a scam.

The letter is presented to all in the form of the Bible, and in one nutshell, John 3:16.  There is plenty of reason to believe and plenty of reason to disbelieve.  Therein lies the beauty of freewill/free choice.  You are not overwhelmed with "proof" (well, you are in a sense) and so you make your own choice.  You cannot blame anyone but your own intelligence.  It is you making the decision and you alone.

Aye, the bible looks very much like a scam. When asked what reason there is to even believe that bible is remotely correct, people cite their feelings, the bible and pretty much anything else that cannot be verified as to the honesty and truth of the claims, trying to ensure that the claims cannot be verified at that time or ever is a scam tactic. The bible essentially says that you must believe this and be rewarded or don't and suffer, this kind of threat is a tactic of scam artists. The bible calls those that don't believe fools, which is also a common scam tactic, after all, you don't want to be a fool do you? For these and other reasons, it looks like a scam. It might not be a scam, however I wouldn't risk a penny, let alone an alleged eternal soul on something with this kind of absence of evidence.

So it's like someone thinking that there really is a class-action lawsuit somewhere, and that thinking that it's real and wanting to be on a list for it results in them getting rewarded.

So in your mind, we are deluded.  No problem.

No, in my mind I have no idea if you're delusional. However if you think people should believe that this class action law suit exists, then you should provide more than just assurances and beliefs (the bible is included as assurances and beliefs of people who lived a long time ago).

Also, merely not thinking that the law suit is real, means that you get sentenced to a Turkish prison forever.

Quite right.  If you lack the will to be added, you don't get the reward.  You are 100% correct.  And I think most of Atheism, as I hear it, is happy with this, that being that even IF God exists as suggested in the Bible, and there is this plan of salvation, most of *you (general to Strong Atheism) don't want anything to do with it anyway.  Is this not correct?

It's not the lack of will to be added, it's the lack of evidence that the thing even exists. If someone came up to me and said, "hey, if you give me ten dollars I'll give you back a million in two weeks" it wouldn't be that I don't want a million dollars, it's just that I have no reason to risk even $10 on something with that has no evidence that it will work. In the same way, it's not that I don't have the will to believe in a god, it's that there is no rational reason to believe in a god. If I can't risk $10 on the chance that I could get $1,000,000 just on someone's assurances and professed beliefs, what makes you think I'm going to risk an alleged eternal soul just on someone's assurances and professed beliefs?

As for wanting the plan of salvation or not, it depends on what it is. I've heard lots of people with lots of different versions of heaven and hell. It doesn't matter which is my favourite version or which one I think is the most realistic, what matters is which one can be backed up by empirical evidence.

[Asmodean]

Quite right.  If you lack the will to be added, you don't get the reward.  You are 100% correct.  And I think most of Atheism, as I hear it, is happy with this, that being that even IF God exists as suggested in the Bible, and there is this plan of salvation, most of *you (general to Strong Atheism) don't want anything to do with it anyway.  Is this not correct?

Speaking for myself, I find the whole idea of salvation pointless. There is nothing I need immediate saving from and so even if there was some master plan for salvation, I'd send the master planner to someone who actually seems to need and want it.

I have no desire for a life beyond life, but if we hypothesize for the moment that there is one, I honestly and absolutely don't care what it is or which side of the heavenly border I will land on. I'll be DEAD, so what will it matter?

[AnimatedDirt]

As for wanting the plan of salvation or not, it depends on what it is. I've heard lots of people with lots of different versions of heaven and hell. It doesn't matter which is my favourite version or which one I think is the most realistic, what matters is which one can be backed up by empirical evidence.

For discussion purposes, let's just say (as I believe) that it is either eternal life or eternal death.  Let's leave out "heaven" and "hell" altogether.

Neither can be backed by empirical evidence.  Not even the current theory of the 'evolution' of life on this planet can be proven to the point you seem to require for the above.

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This "evidence" you seek or require to even "seek" is not evidence that can be given from a man or the intellect of a man.

The heavens declare the glory of God;
    the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
    night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language
    where their voice is not heard.*
Their voice* goes out into all the earth,
    their words to the ends of the world.

It is these that attest to God and His existence, but even these (probability, fine tuning, beauty, symmetry) cannot reveal God to the satisfaction of Man.

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

[LegendarySandwich]

For discussion purposes, let's just say (as I believe) that it is either eternal life or eternal death.  Let's leave out "heaven" and "hell" altogether.

Neither can be backed by empirical evidence.  Not even the current theory of the 'evolution' of life on this planet can be proven to the point you seem to require for the above.

What are you talking about?

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This "evidence" you seek or require to even "seek" is not evidence that can be given from a man or the intellect of a man.

But it can be given from a centuries old book written by primitive peoples, huh?

The heavens declare the glory of God;
    the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
    night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language
    where their voice is not heard.*
Their voice* goes out into all the earth,
    their words to the ends of the world.

It is these that attest to God and His existence, but even these (probability, fine tuning, beauty, symmetry) cannot reveal God to the satisfaction of Man.

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

So, you have a really old book, and common arguments for God that have been debunked many times? I don't see how these things could reveal God to the satisfaction of anyone.

[Davin]

As for wanting the plan of salvation or not, it depends on what it is. I've heard lots of people with lots of different versions of heaven and hell. It doesn't matter which is my favourite version or which one I think is the most realistic, what matters is which one can be backed up by empirical evidence.

For discussion purposes, let's just say (as I believe) that it is either eternal life or eternal death.  Let's leave out "heaven" and "hell" altogether.

Neither can be backed by empirical evidence.  Not even the current theory of the 'evolution' of life on this planet can be proven to the point you seem to require for the above.

Not true at all. Honestly, I'm a little irritated by this accusation and the frequency at which it is employed. Even if I didn't accept evolution, this point is moot. I'd accept a vast amount of varied evidence, just none that aren't empirical. Absolute knowledge is my goal, with the understanding that it's impossible. I accept things that have sufficient empirical evidence, not absolute surety. The difference between what I accept as true from what I don't is the amount of supporting evidence and predictive accuracy of the theory. Evolution has overwhelming amounts of both as does gravity, the god of the bible however, has neither.

Describing away the lack of evidence and predictive accuracy when it comes to god by saying that there cannot be any, is not something I can accept. Making something indeterminable from something that doesn't exist only makes the concept effectively useless and meaningless.

Despite telling you in my previous post that I don't accept assurances and beliefs, you go and cite the bible, which is just assurances and beliefs. I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish with this.

[Event_Horizon]

God is Love and God is also Judge (among other aspects of His nature).  If so, then there MUST be legal action.  The wrath of God (the legal action, if you will) is the placement of Sin on Christ and subsequently, the death of Christ.  The Love of God is that He, Himself pays the price He, Himself as Judge must uphold.  His omni-Love is fulfilled and His omni-Judge is satisfied.  Case closed.  Now think in terms of a Class-Action Suit (I'm no expert on civil law, so I hope this analogy fits).  Judgment has been rendered, the question remains if you want to be part of the class-action.

But in your scenario, Jesus isn't part of the court, nor part of the class action lawsuit. He is just the innocent hotdog vendor outside the court house. It would be as if the court (God), sentenced the people who lost in the case (humans) to pay the fine, but instead of giving them punishment, he brought in the hotdog vendor and forced him to pay the fine, THEN asked the people of in court to pay back the hotdog vendor for his forced payment. I'm sorry but that is not justice.

I've received at least one letter of a class-action suit that apparently I might've gained in some respect.  To gain, I must add my name, provide some proof that I purchased an item, or paid for a service, was prescribed a certain medication, and I'd be added.  The letter alwasys states "not all are guaranteed to collect"...but in this cosmic class-action, ALL can be added and ALL that do, will be given the gift.

But your scenario doesn't punish someone for not joining the lawsuit, but the Bible specifically says you have to, or you'll be punished.

Think of it this way. I come to you and say that your grandfather robbed my grandfather, which ruined my family financially, so now you have to pay me everything you own. You would think I was crazy, right? But what if I then said that wait, you didn't have to, because I took the innocent postman walking by forced him to pay me everything he had. Then I proclaim that now of course you'll have to pay back the post man for him having been forced to pay me, or you'd be physically tortured. If that scenario seems quite messed up, then you partially understand why I see Christianity that way. The idea that we have our parent's sin (sin from Adam and Eve) so therefore we must be punished for it is ethical thinking out of the bronze age. No court would ever arrest someone for what their ancestors did centuries ago. Christianity goes several steps further and says that an innocent person was killed for your supposed sins, and that you need to thank said person or you'll be punished even worse! That is blackmail for a crime no one committed, and it is not justice.

[LegendarySandwich]

I'd just like to point out that I differ from Davin in the sense that I'm not a strict empiricist -- I don't necessarily have to have empirical evidence of something for me to accept it.

[AnimatedDirt]

Not true at all. Honestly, I'm a little irritated by this accusation and the frequency at which it is employed. Even if I didn't accept evolution, this point is moot. I'd accept a vast amount of varied evidence, just none that aren't empirical. Absolute knowledge is my goal, with the understanding that it's impossible. I accept things that have sufficient empirical evidence, not absolute surety. The difference between what I accept as true from what I don't is the amount of supporting evidence and predictive accuracy of the theory. Evolution has overwhelming amounts of both as does gravity, the god of the bible however, has neither.

Describing away the lack of evidence and predictive accuracy when it comes to god by saying that there cannot be any, is not something I can accept. Making something indeterminable from something that doesn't exist only makes the concept effectively useless and meaningless.

Despite telling you in my previous post that I don't accept assurances and beliefs, you go and cite the bible, which is just assurances and beliefs. I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish with this.

Well...the Bible plus historical evidence that seems to be "unsound".  But then again, I don't promote "proof" (as required by you) for faith and trust.  We then are left with the knowledge of an old book that people would need/want MORE evidence.  None will be given.  Full Stop.  The evidence is there if one wishes to search it out.

[LegendarySandwich]

Well...the Bible plus historical evidence that seems to be "unsound".  But then again, I don't promote "proof" (as required by you) for faith and trust.  We then are left with the knowledge of an old book that people would need/want MORE evidence.  None will be given.  Full Stop.  The evidence is there if one wishes to search it out.

There is also evidence of U.F.O.'s and ghosts, if one wishes to search it out.