The Futile Arguments Thread

[defendor]

Why does whether or not amputees are healed have any affect on you?

[LegendarySandwich]

Why does whether or not amputees are healed have any affect on you?

It doesn't, but it should have an affect on you.

[defendor]

How so?

[LegendarySandwich]

How so?

If I was you, I'd be questioning my faith right now.

Defendor, I want you to do something for me. Please read this site, with as open a mind as you can muster.

[defendor]

If I asked God to do many things, and he did every single one of them, who would serve who?
The God I believe in, I serve, he does not serve me.  He is the God, I am the creation.  

Do I think God could heal amputees? Yes,
Do I think good could come out of it? probably,
Will god show his glory regardless? Yes

 "He can.. He will.. and even if He doesn't.."

But the question I have for you, you say you differentiate the basis of good and evil for yourself.  That you alone can decipher what good and evil is for yourself.  There is no standard for good or evil, only yourself.  So if this is the case, why would you use an argument that has no solid claims of moral boundaries. It may seem unfair, to you, but who are you to claim what is fair or unfair for another person?

[LegendarySandwich]

If I asked God to do many things, and he did every single one of them, who would serve who?
The God I believe in, I serve, he does not serve me.  He is the God, I am the creation.  

Do I think God could heal amputees? Yes,
Do I think good could come out of it? probably,
Will god show his glory regardless? Yes

 "He can.. He will.. and even if He doesn't.."

But the question I have for you, you say you differentiate the basis of good and evil for yourself.  That you alone can decipher what good and evil is for yourself.  There is no standard for good or evil, only yourself.  So if this is the case, why would you use an argument that has no solid claims of moral boundaries. It may seem unfair, to you, but who are you to claim what is fair or unfair for another person?

Once again, I ask you to read the site. The objection you raise, along with many more, are addressed there.

I use logic, reason, empathy, all those good things to build a moral standard for myself -- however, I have to recognize that those things can only go so far, and somewhere down the line you have to resort to mere opinion.

For the most part, I don't push my morals onto other people. Live and let live, right? But I do feel that some actions are not acceptable, and should have repercussions.

[JoeBobSmith]

its more challenging

[defendor]

I read it, and have seen that site before.  It has a misunderstanding of God.  God is not some "genie in a bottle" that grants you a wish.
The bible verses are taken out of context.  Ask in Jesus' name is not merely tacking the name of Jesus behind every wish and seeing everything pop up accordingly. It is to ask in the will of Jesus.  Are people actually healed? Yes, have I seen it? Yes, Do you believe me? No

But the question of believing is not whether or not God can perform a trick.  Can God regenerate a leg? absolutely, He created the universe.  It's if you would believe in him, whether or not he healed an amputee leg.

If God is omnipotent and outside of time, Why would 40 years with a leg mean more than eternity in Hell?

God has a providential plan and it is not to make everyone healthy, wealthy, and wise. (Joel Osteen)

God is after something other than our personal "well-being." He is more concerned with our Holiness rather than our Happiness.  This is illustrated by the quote of Jesus "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

I've posted on the ideas of Justice and non-justice in accordance with God.

What does God's business have anything to do with you anyways?  
This question was asked to Jesus by the Pharisees, Some people had died and their blood was mixed with the blood of animals (very unclean and degrading)  and they asked, Why did this happen? Jesus responded "Truly truly I say to you, likewise you shall perish unless you repent."

Its a broken world we're living in, God is here to collect souls.  He's not done reconciling the world.

Its kinda funny, you denounce God on moral issues, but claim that there is no set of moral standards.  If God lived by your standards, he would be no God worth submitting to.

[JoeBobSmith]

...

sorry i didn't read the whole topic yet

[LegendarySandwich]

I read it, and have seen that site before.  It has a misunderstanding of God.  God is not some "genie in a bottle" that grants you a wish.

In a similar vein, many believers will say, "God always answers prayers, but sometimes his answer is 'no.' If your prayer does not fit with God's will, then God will say 'no' to you." This feels odd because God's answer to every amputee is always "no" when it comes to regenerating lost limbs. Jesus says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." He does not say, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it, unless you are praying about an amputated limb, in which case I will always reject your prayer." Jesus also says, "Nothing will be impossible to you," and regenerating a limb should therefore be possible. The fact that God refuses to answer every prayer to regenerate a lost limb seems strange, doesn't it?

The bible verses are taken out of context.

How so?

Ask in Jesus' name is not merely tacking the name of Jesus behind every wish and seeing everything pop up accordingly. It is to ask in the will of Jesus.

So, what's the point of prayer if God was already going to do it? Doesn't that nullify the point? Also, that's not what the verses say. They are plain and clear in their message.

Are people actually healed? Yes, have I seen it? Yes, Do you believe me? No

Of course people get healed, but not because of some magical being.

But the question of believing is not whether or not God can perform a trick.  Can God regenerate a leg? absolutely, He created the universe.  It's if you would believe in him, whether or not he healed an amputee leg.

If God is omnipotent and outside of time, Why would 40 years with a leg mean more than eternity in Hell?

You're just side-stepping the issue.

God has a providential plan and it is not to make everyone healthy, wealthy, and wise. (Joel Osteen)

Rationalization #1

Here is an explanation that you might have heard or used before:

    The reason God cures thousands of cancers, infections, etc. each day but never intervenes with amputees is because it is not God's will to do that. It is not part of God's plan.

This explanation seems a little odd. Amputees really do seem to be getting the short end of God's plan if this is the case. If God answers prayers as promised in the Bible, and if God is performing all of the medical miracles that we read about in inspirational literature, then God should also be restoring amputated limbs. Why would God help cancer victims (e.g. Marilyn Hickey's mother) and people bitten by rabid bats (e.g. Jeanna Giese), but discriminate against amputees like this? (See Understanding God's Plan for an in-depth look at how "God's Plan" works).

Keep in mind what Jesus promised:

    If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]

    If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]

    Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]

    Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]

    Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]

There is no indication from Jesus that amputees will be ignored when they pray for medical help. The fact is, all five of these statements are completely false in the case of amputees.

The five quotes in the previous paragraph are all simple, straightforward statements. Doesn't "nothing will be impossible for you" mean "nothing will be impossible for you"? Jesus is God, and as an all-knowing being God knows how humans interpret sentences. If Jesus did not mean "nothing will be impossible for you," it seems like Jesus would have said something else. He also would not repeat that sentiment so many times. And Jesus is supposedly answering millions of prayers each day, so prayer-answering seems to be his intent (See this short video for a more in-depth discussion).

Also, God's plan sucks then.

God is after something other than our personal "well-being." He is more concerned with our Holiness rather than our Happiness.  This is illustrated by the quote of Jesus "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

So, giving amputees' legs back will somehow make them go to Hell?

I've posted on the ideas of Justice and non-justice in accordance with God.

God's idea of justice sucks.

What does God's business have anything to do with you anyways?

What does it have to do with you? Why don't you just stop posting now, since God's plan is none of your business?

This question was asked to Jesus by the Pharisees, Some people had died and their blood was mixed with the blood of animals (very unclean and degrading)  and they asked, Why did this happen? Jesus responded "Truly truly I say to you, likewise you shall perish unless you repent."

Uhh...relevance?

Its a broken world we're living in, God is here to collect souls.  He's not done reconciling the world.

And to do that, he can't heal any amputees. Interesting.

Also, once again, God sucks.

Its kinda funny, you denounce God on moral issues, but claim that there is no set of moral standards.

God is evil both according to the conscience I was born with (which God supposedly gave me) and my own morals, and the morals he himself sets in the Bible, such as the Ten Commandments.

If God lived by your standards, he would be no God worth submitting to.

If God lived by my moral standards, he would be a far, far better god than the one described in your holy book.

[JoeBobSmith]

:brick:  

[Stevil]

I think this is a good rationalization.  But I have a question, what is energy?

Energy is everything.

Energy is heat, momentum, light, force and matter.

Going by Einstein’s formula E=MC2, there is a direct relation between matter and energy. It makes sense to me that matter is simply just energy in a particular state.
In actual fact almost everything both energy and matter.
Light for example displays both the properties of a waveform (energy) and a particle (matter).
When the Sun performs fusion in combines atoms together to create atoms lower down on the periodic table e.g. Hydrogen atoms are combined to create Helium atoms. When this process happens energy is also given off, radiated out, hence the Sun is hot. The opposite of this is a nuclear bomb, this is fission where atoms are split e.g. Uranium into Barium. When this happens energy is also given off. This is also likely to occur with atomic decay (a natural occurrence). The energy that is given off comes from the atoms and hence were once considered as matter.

I guess that the same thing happens within Black Holes, atoms are broken down and hence are capable of collecting within a point of singularity.

My guess is that the Big Bang occurred from the explosion of an incredibly large black hole which either gradually reached its critical limit or achieved this via multiple black holes colliding. The forces within the Black hole became strong enough to breakdown all the particles within it and hence the pure energy was able to travel faster than the speed of light (remember light contains particles), a requirement for energy to be able to escape the grip of a black hole. (This is speculative on my behalf). This hyper expansion period was brief but very fast, the momentum of the escaping energy was enough for this energy to escape the clutches of the black hole forever. So by my current thinking, the energy contained within our Universe, existed within space for billions of billions of years before our Universe exploded from this Black hole. I do not agree with the concept that a quantum fluctuation created all this energy at the same time (in an instant), however I guess that it is possible.

Once the pure energy got a certain distance from the black hole and it cooled down enough (since it dissipates the energy is spread by distance creating the effect of cooling) the energy was then able to form particles again (this is a very natural state and requires extreme conditions for this not to occur). Once particles formed then the speed reduced to the speed of light limitation. From there particles became atoms somehow e.g. Hydrogen. When gravity pulled enough together they formed Stars which created all the atoms of the periodic table. Stars eventually explode releasing the atoms/matter into space which form planets, comets, dust, gas etc. Other stars form and pull in the matter objects which fall into orbit around the stars. Some stars turn into black holes and collect energy/matter.

Each Galaxy has a black hole at its center. These draw the solar systems together which rotate around the black hole. Every Galaxy within our Universe are traveling away from each other, and for some reason the rate is accelerating. Our Universe will eventually dissipate into virtual nothingness.

Space is infinite, there are likely many, many universes out there (although this will probably never be proven, there are probably an infinite amount of universes). Universes are constantly being created and exploding into nothingness, along the way billions of galaxies, solar systems, stars and planets are formed, likely billions of life forms as well. It is a never ending process. Universes may or may not cluster together much in the way a Galaxy forms, this could be termed as a Multiverse. (I doubt we will ever know)

Everything within Space is simply energy in different forms. Energy contains all the properties and forces required for all this to happen. Life is inevitable given these properties of energy. I do not know what the ultimate level of natural complexity will be before the Universe dissipates, it could be reasonable for people to think the ultimate is intelligent life but our thinking is limited by what we think we know. It is likely there are different sized Universes out there, with varying ages and varying life spans. We will likely never know if our Universe is comparatively small, average or large.

Anyway, with this type of thinking, I find it an absurd suggestion that there is just one Universe and that it was created by an all knowing god, who watches over it and in particular the human species on a small planet called earth on the outer part of the Milky Way galaxy which is one of billions of galaxies in our own universe.

Please don’t ask me for proof of what I have just stated. It is simply an idea that I have in my head. As Science evolves and my understanding of science evolves I adapt my idea. It is quite likely that people with more knowledge of science could trash some of my ideas and even present more likely ideas.

But my point which I do think is true is that everything is energy in some form. Except concepts which are simply conceptual ideas rather than substance.

[LegendarySandwich]

But my point which I do think is true is that everything is energy in some form. Except concepts which are simply conceptual ideas rather than substance.

Concepts and ideas are, at their most basic form, just chemicals in somebody's brain, and chemicals are energy too, right?

[Whitney]

I don't understand why some Christians don't get the point behind the WWGHA argument.  It's not about if god hates amputees, or why god won't heal them...it's about why won't god perform miracles that couldn't have just happened naturally by chance.  Every single verifiable miracle is something that could have happened if a god existed or not...like cancer going into regression or uncle phil surviving his heart attack despite being having risk factor of 95% odds of death.  Praying for people doesn't even statistically increase their chances of getting well, some studies have even shown it to be the opposite of helpful (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 133554.htm).

I was a member of wwgha since basically from when it started; but it got tiring having to baby step explain the above to people who just couldn't get it or who were delusional/gullible enough to think some random person claiming an amputee got healed meant it actually happened.

[LegendarySandwich]

I don't understand why some Christians don't get the point behind the WWGHA argument.  It's not about if god hates amputees, or why god won't heal them...it's about why won't god perform miracles that couldn't have just happened naturally by chance.  Every single verifiable miracle is something that could have happened if a god existed or not...like cancer going into regression or uncle phil surviving his heart attack despite being having risk factor of 95% odds of death.  Praying for people doesn't even statistically increase their chances of getting well, some studies have even shown it to be the opposite of helpful (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 133554.htm).

I was a member of wwgha since basically from when it started; but it got tiring having to baby step explain the above to people who just couldn't get it or who were delusional/gullible enough to think some random person claiming an amputee got healed meant it actually happened.

Yep. From what I've seen so far, the "WWGHA" argument is one of the most effective against the Judeo-Christian god, at least in my eyes. I can't think of anyway around it that doesn't make God evil or resorts to bullshit rationalization.