How would you react in this situation?

[Davin]

A second (if slightly off-topic) question; why do atheists refuse to bow before the Lord Jesus, when he has formally admitted his divinity?

I see this question as on-topic with the first:

What would you do if someone in your social circle claimed to be the Christ Eternal?

Both questions can be answered the same way: because they're most likely just crazy. I'll give you a demonstration:

I am Herbert the Almighty, I am supremely divine.



I'm going to go ahead and assume that I'm not going to get any followers just because I claim I am divine. Jesus is the same way, the only difference is that instead of there being an actual person claiming divinity, a bunch of people starting at least 50 years after he died are claiming it for him.

[Whitney]

A second (if slightly off-topic) question; why do atheists refuse to bow before the Lord Jesus, when he has formally admitted his divinity?

What makes you think our answers would differ for some character in an old book when we wouldn't even believe our friends?

BTW, this is really close to preaching so please make yourself aware of the forum rules before you cross the line and find yourself starting the banning process...giving you fair warning so don't start in with "I'm being persecuted" if it happens  

[hingedro]

I apologise for any offence I caused.

[Whitney]

I apologise for any offence I caused.

I don't see anyone that is offended....annoyed with wasting their time, possibly.

[Tank]

I apologise for any offence I caused.

I don't see anyone that is offended....annoyed with wasting their time, possibly.

Yep. Not offended just extremely fed up with really stupid questions that if the interlocutor thought about what they were typing they would realise how useless and unproductive the question really was. Atheists don't have reason to believe God exists thus any question like the one you asked is just a waste of every bodies time. Hingedro I would find it much more interesting to know what motivated you to ask the question in the first place.

[Achronos]

I like how you, Tank, singled out Christianity as your punching bag of all religions, calling all others "self-consistent" but Christianity worst of garbage. I'll take that as a badge of honor. I will take crap from you any day in the name of Christ. On behalf of whatever you experience, all Christians seem to you "abusive, nasty, self-centered, arrogant."  And to that I say, if that's what you saw, then it's understandable why you're an atheist. When you're this angry, let's face it, you're simply in denial of your reasons for atheism. You think it's because of your intelligence that you're atheistic, but really it's because of what you see around you.

Perhaps, you'll never believe. But from what I understand, your grandchildren being raised in an atheist environment may tend to be very open to the idea of God later on, perhaps because he/she might also experience "abusive, nasty, self-centered, arrogant, delusional" atheists. Your reaction and the majority posts I've seen here serve as an example of how bitter atheists can be in their lives, and actually the presence of this board really is a blessing in disguise.

Seriously though may the Lord have mercy on you both.

If you're serious you're seriously deranged mate. I mean let's face it the Jews were first so they must be right

No, they weren't.

the Muslims got the last prophet so they must be right,

No, they don't.

Hindus are all inclusive so they must be right.

No, they aren't.

At least Judaism, Islam and Hinduism are relatively self-consistent.

No, they aren't. But since you display no knowledge of any of them, assume that an assertion must be taken at face value, and have yet to explain why being first, last or inclusive has any relevance to the Truth, I'm not sure you learning any facts on Judaism, Islam or Hinduism is going to make your thinking any more coherent.

Christianity is a joke.

Although your credentials as court jester may be in order, your "expertise" has failed you here.

An omnipotent, omniscient sky daddy was so incompetent he created creatures that he allowed to do what he didn't want them to do,

Only the seriously deranged condemn the gift of free will as a curse.

so he punished them for doing what he had given them the ability to do

He did not say "I will kill you." He said "You will die by death."

and then turned himself into one of them and had himself tortured to death to fix the problem he had created in the first place.

He created them, not the problem.
God pity your grandchildren.

Get real mate, Christianity is a waste of time, space, effort and resources. If you really believe in a Christian God you are definitely not really engaging in reality.

Earth to Tank!....Earth to Tank!....Earth to Tank!

Even the secular benefits of Christianity have been amply been recognized and secured by history.

Fortunately I don't live in an aggressive theocracy like Saudi Arabia, the USA or Pakistan.

What part of paradise do you call home again?

I don't have to put up with being abused by nasty, self-centred, arrogant, proselytising, delusional God Botherers.

Oh? is that why you come here, seeking abuse?

The fun thing about that is that when accosted by well meaning street missionaries I can take the piss out of them mercilessly and have a real laugh at their ignorance.

If you posts are any indication of your skills, they must be piss poor missionaries for you to get the better of them.  I should think that even the dumbest JW could knock you down a notch.

My kids are all normal people and completely superstition free.

So are all the children in our Sunday School.

With the birth of my Grandson on the 29th Nov another generation of the superstition free has arrived and they may actually be able to deal with the real issues humanity faces rather than worrying about what an imaginary, mythological issues like going to paradise or hell.

Hopefully your family is better than the "Murray's" (in quotations, because no Murray family, with married husband and father, ever existed:

In 1941, she married John Henry Roths. They separated when they both enlisted for World War II service, he in the United States Marine Corps, she in the Women's Army Corps. In April 1945, while posted to a cryptography position in Italy, she began an affair with an officer, William J. Murray, Jr. Murray was a married Roman Catholic, and he refused to divorce his wife. Mays divorced Roths and began calling herself Madalyn Murray, and gave birth to a boy she named William J. Murray and nicknamed "Bill."

In 1949, Murray completed a bachelor's degree from Ashland University.[7] In 1952, she completed a law degree from South Texas College of Law; however, she failed the bar exam and never practiced law.[4] In later writing for American Atheists, she referred to herself as "Dr. O'Hair," likely with regard to her law degree (a juris doctorate), although it is not standard practice for individuals in the United States with law degrees to do so. On November 16, 1954 she gave birth to her second son Jon Garth Murray, fathered by her boyfriend Michael Fiorillo.[3]

She and her two children traveled via ship to Europe with the intention of defecting to the Soviet embassy in Paris and residing in the Soviet Union. The Soviets denied them entry.[4] Murray and her sons returned to Baltimore, Maryland in 1960.[8]

Murray stated that she worked for seventeen years as a psychiatric social worker, and that in 1960 she was a supervisor at the Baltimore city public welfare department.[7]

Worked 17 years as a psychiatric social worker. Says a lot about the system.

There is a ray of light though: William, the one for whom she sued in the US Supreme Court to ban prayer in school, received baptism:

William J. Murray is the chairman of the Religious Freedom Coalition, a non-profit organization in Washington, D.C., active on issues related to aiding Christians in Islamic and Communist nations.

William is the son of Madalyn Murray O'Hair,[1] an United States atheist activist who came to national attention in Baltimore, Maryland when she filed a lawsuit with the Supreme Court of the United States, saying that compulsory prayer and reading of the Bible in schools was unconstitutional.

Murray converted to Baptist Christianity in 1980. His mother reportedly stated, upon learning of his conversion, "One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times ... he is beyond human forgiveness."[2] He felt similarly negative toward her in his first book, My Life Without God, as he made allegations such as: "She was just evil … She misused the trust of people. She cheated children out of their parents' inheritance."[3] Bill also repudiated his mother upon the occasion of her death, saying "I used to ask people to pray for my mother's salvation. I don't do that anymore…. My mother was an evil person."[2]

William J. Murray is the author of several books including Let Us Pray and The Church Is Not For Perfect People. His most recent book is The Pledge: One Nation Under God, for which the foreword, "A Washington, DC insider", was written by Congressman Todd Akin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Murray

Regards
Chris

An old story is told about a drunk who fell into a pit. The sides of the pit were so steep and he was so inebriated that he could not get out. He cried in alarm to anyone who would hear him.

A Jew walked by, stopped, took out the Psalms and quoted:-

“I am reckoned among those who go down to the pit; I am a man who has no strength” (Ps 88:4)

“My son,” he said, observe God’s Law and you will not stumble.” With that he walked on by.

A Muslim walked to the edge of the pit, peered over and declaimed: “You are a drunk, an unbeliever. First submit both Allah and to his laws, then you will know Paradise.” In disgust, he also walked away hurriedly.

A Hindu approached, a sage. “Your karma is now set by this deed. There is nothing you can do. Accept death and on your next rebirth perhaps your soul will make more progress.” The sage calmly walked away.

A Buddhist monk approached and with compassion he looked down on the man and tried to teach him to meditate. “Try to extinguish your desires … for earthly freedom, even for life itself. With desire comes suffering. With the right mental attitude you too can attain nibbana.” The monk retreated from the pit with a beatific smile on his face.

The drunk man grumbled noisily to himself in the pangs of his pain that all men were the same. With much difficulty he slumped and forward and fell into a fitful sleep.

Suddenly he was rudely awoken by a rough fellow gently shaking him. This man had let himself down into the pit with a rope.

The descent was so difficult beset with sharp stones, briars and obstacles that his hands and body were bleeding.

He took a spare rope, tied it round the drunken man’s waist who fell silent in disbelief. The drunk felt himself dragged to the side of the pit whereupon his rescuer strapped them both together and raised them up on a pulley fixed into the edge of the top of the pit for that purpose.

As they both stood out of the pit into the sunshine, unshackled, the drunken man, who was now a little more sober, looked round. The stranger had gone but there was a rather odd charge that lingered on in the air. He did not feel alone.

He looked back into the pit and thought thankfully about the great sacrifice this Man had made to save him.

[Tank]

I like how you, Tank, singled out Christianity as your punching bag of all religions, calling all others "self-consistent" but Christianity worst of garbage. I'll take that as a badge of honor. I will take crap from you any day in the name of Christ. On behalf of whatever you experience, all Christians seem to you "abusive, nasty, self-centered, arrogant."  And to that I say, if that's what you saw, then it's understandable why you're an atheist. When you're this angry, let's face it, you're simply in denial of your reasons for atheism. You think it's because of your intelligence that you're atheistic, but really it's because of what you see around you.

Perhaps, you'll never believe. But from what I understand, your grandchildren being raised in an atheist environment may tend to be very open to the idea of God later on, perhaps because he/she might also experience "abusive, nasty, self-centered, arrogant, delusional" atheists. Your reaction and the majority posts I've seen here serve as an example of how bitter atheists can be in their lives, and actually the presence of this board really is a blessing in disguise.

Seriously though may the Lord have mercy on you both.

If you're serious you're seriously deranged mate. I mean let's face it the Jews were first so they must be right

No, they weren't.

the Muslims got the last prophet so they must be right,

No, they don't.

Hindus are all inclusive so they must be right.

No, they aren't.

At least Judaism, Islam and Hinduism are relatively self-consistent.

No, they aren't. But since you display no knowledge of any of them, assume that an assertion must be taken at face value, and have yet to explain why being first, last or inclusive has any relevance to the Truth, I'm not sure you learning any facts on Judaism, Islam or Hinduism is going to make your thinking any more coherent.

Christianity is a joke.

Although your credentials as court jester may be in order, your "expertise" has failed you here.

An omnipotent, omniscient sky daddy was so incompetent he created creatures that he allowed to do what he didn't want them to do,

Only the seriously deranged condemn the gift of free will as a curse.

so he punished them for doing what he had given them the ability to do

He did not say "I will kill you." He said "You will die by death."

and then turned himself into one of them and had himself tortured to death to fix the problem he had created in the first place.

He created them, not the problem.
God pity your grandchildren.

Get real mate, Christianity is a waste of time, space, effort and resources. If you really believe in a Christian God you are definitely not really engaging in reality.

Earth to Tank!....Earth to Tank!....Earth to Tank!

Even the secular benefits of Christianity have been amply been recognized and secured by history.

Fortunately I don't live in an aggressive theocracy like Saudi Arabia, the USA or Pakistan.

What part of paradise do you call home again?

I don't have to put up with being abused by nasty, self-centred, arrogant, proselytising, delusional God Botherers.

Oh? is that why you come here, seeking abuse?

The fun thing about that is that when accosted by well meaning street missionaries I can take the piss out of them mercilessly and have a real laugh at their ignorance.

If you posts are any indication of your skills, they must be piss poor missionaries for you to get the better of them.  I should think that even the dumbest JW could knock you down a notch.

My kids are all normal people and completely superstition free.

So are all the children in our Sunday School.

With the birth of my Grandson on the 29th Nov another generation of the superstition free has arrived and they may actually be able to deal with the real issues humanity faces rather than worrying about what an imaginary, mythological issues like going to paradise or hell.

Hopefully your family is better than the "Murray's" (in quotations, because no Murray family, with married husband and father, ever existed:

In 1941, she married John Henry Roths. They separated when they both enlisted for World War II service, he in the United States Marine Corps, she in the Women's Army Corps. In April 1945, while posted to a cryptography position in Italy, she began an affair with an officer, William J. Murray, Jr. Murray was a married Roman Catholic, and he refused to divorce his wife. Mays divorced Roths and began calling herself Madalyn Murray, and gave birth to a boy she named William J. Murray and nicknamed "Bill."

In 1949, Murray completed a bachelor's degree from Ashland University.[7] In 1952, she completed a law degree from South Texas College of Law; however, she failed the bar exam and never practiced law.[4] In later writing for American Atheists, she referred to herself as "Dr. O'Hair," likely with regard to her law degree (a juris doctorate), although it is not standard practice for individuals in the United States with law degrees to do so. On November 16, 1954 she gave birth to her second son Jon Garth Murray, fathered by her boyfriend Michael Fiorillo.[3]

She and her two children traveled via ship to Europe with the intention of defecting to the Soviet embassy in Paris and residing in the Soviet Union. The Soviets denied them entry.[4] Murray and her sons returned to Baltimore, Maryland in 1960.[8]

Murray stated that she worked for seventeen years as a psychiatric social worker, and that in 1960 she was a supervisor at the Baltimore city public welfare department.[7]

Worked 17 years as a psychiatric social worker. Says a lot about the system.

There is a ray of light though: William, the one for whom she sued in the US Supreme Court to ban prayer in school, received baptism:

William J. Murray is the chairman of the Religious Freedom Coalition, a non-profit organization in Washington, D.C., active on issues related to aiding Christians in Islamic and Communist nations.

William is the son of Madalyn Murray O'Hair,[1] an United States atheist activist who came to national attention in Baltimore, Maryland when she filed a lawsuit with the Supreme Court of the United States, saying that compulsory prayer and reading of the Bible in schools was unconstitutional.

Murray converted to Baptist Christianity in 1980. His mother reportedly stated, upon learning of his conversion, "One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times ... he is beyond human forgiveness."[2] He felt similarly negative toward her in his first book, My Life Without God, as he made allegations such as: "She was just evil … She misused the trust of people. She cheated children out of their parents' inheritance."[3] Bill also repudiated his mother upon the occasion of her death, saying "I used to ask people to pray for my mother's salvation. I don't do that anymore…. My mother was an evil person."[2]

William J. Murray is the author of several books including Let Us Pray and The Church Is Not For Perfect People. His most recent book is The Pledge: One Nation Under God, for which the foreword, "A Washington, DC insider", was written by Congressman Todd Akin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Murray

Regards
Chris

An old story is told about a drunk who fell into a pit. The sides of the pit were so steep and he was so inebriated that he could not get out. He cried in alarm to anyone who would hear him.

A Jew walked by, stopped, took out the Psalms and quoted:-

“I am reckoned among those who go down to the pit; I am a man who has no strength” (Ps 88:4)

“My son,” he said, observe God’s Law and you will not stumble.” With that he walked on by.

A Muslim walked to the edge of the pit, peered over and declaimed: “You are a drunk, an unbeliever. First submit both Allah and to his laws, then you will know Paradise.” In disgust, he also walked away hurriedly.

A Hindu approached, a sage. “Your karma is now set by this deed. There is nothing you can do. Accept death and on your next rebirth perhaps your soul will make more progress.” The sage calmly walked away.

A Buddhist monk approached and with compassion he looked down on the man and tried to teach him to meditate. “Try to extinguish your desires … for earthly freedom, even for life itself. With desire comes suffering. With the right mental attitude you too can attain nibbana.” The monk retreated from the pit with a beatific smile on his face.

The drunk man grumbled noisily to himself in the pangs of his pain that all men were the same. With much difficulty he slumped and forward and fell into a fitful sleep.

Suddenly he was rudely awoken by a rough fellow gently shaking him. This man had let himself down into the pit with a rope.

The descent was so difficult beset with sharp stones, briars and obstacles that his hands and body were bleeding.

He took a spare rope, tied it round the drunken man’s waist who fell silent in disbelief. The drunk felt himself dragged to the side of the pit whereupon his rescuer strapped them both together and raised them up on a pulley fixed into the edge of the top of the pit for that purpose.

As they both stood out of the pit into the sunshine, unshackled, the drunken man, who was now a little more sober, looked round. The stranger had gone but there was a rather odd charge that lingered on in the air. He did not feel alone.

He looked back into the pit and thought thankfully about the great sacrifice this Man had made to save him.

Thank you for your considered reply, you have confirmed everything I expected of you. Nice to know I was spot on with my assessment of how you would reply. You can be on your way now.

[Whitney]

This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=94943#p94943 .

Bringing Tank's grandchildren into this is way past the line where appropriate discussion ends.

btw, that was strike 2.

[AnimatedDirt]

This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic. ... 943#p94943 .

Bringing Tank's grandchildren into this is way past the line where appropriate discussion ends.

btw, that was strike 2.

I think it was Tank who brought up his own grandchildren...

My kids are all normal people and completely superstition free. With the birth of my Grandson on the 29th Nov another generation of the superstition free has arrived and they may actually be able to deal with the real issues humanity faces rather than worrying about what an imaginary, mythological issues like going to paradise or hell.

[Whitney]

This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=94943#p94943 .

Bringing Tank's grandchildren into this is way past the line where appropriate discussion ends.

btw, that was strike 2.

I think it was Tank who brought up his own grandchildren...

My kids are all normal people and completely superstition free. With the birth of my Grandson on the 29th Nov another generation of the superstition free has arrived and they may actually be able to deal with the real issues humanity faces rather than worrying about what an imaginary, mythological issues like going to paradise or hell.

SO?

It's never appropriate to use personal attacks to discuss a topic; Tank wasn't using his grandchildren within an example and in turn they were used a ammo for an emotionally charged response....doesn't fly here.

[Velma]

Has it not occurred to you, Achronos, that Tank mostly talks about christianty because it is the religion that has been in his face most of his life?  As his friend, I can tell you that he is not the least bit bitter, but he has seen the harmful effects of religion on the lives of people, including mine.  It's enough to make someone very angry.

[AnimatedDirt]

SO?

It's never appropriate to use personal attacks to discuss a topic; Tank wasn't using his grandchildren within an example and in turn they were used a ammo for an emotionally charged response....doesn't fly here.

Perhaps, you'll never believe. But from what I understand, your grandchildren being raised in an atheist environment may tend to be very open to the idea of God later on,

This is "ammo" and a personal attack?  Isn't it the general concensus on this forum that the opposite is true, that being that "you" (an Atheist) came from a Christian family, but to say the opposite or insinuate the opposite is a personal attack?  It's a statement of fact, if we are being honest.  How can that be an attack or inappropriate.  Tank, in fact, did use his grandchild as an example of "normal and completely suprestition free"...to say he wasn't is contradictory to his words.

[hingedro]

An old story is told about a drunk who fell into a pit. The sides of the pit were so steep and he was so inebriated that he could not get out. He cried in alarm to anyone who would hear him.

A Jew walked by, stopped, took out the Psalms and quoted:-

“I am reckoned among those who go down to the pit; I am a man who has no strength” (Ps 88:4)

“My son,” he said, observe God’s Law and you will not stumble.” With that he walked on by.

A Muslim walked to the edge of the pit, peered over and declaimed: “You are a drunk, an unbeliever. First submit both Allah and to his laws, then you will know Paradise.” In disgust, he also walked away hurriedly.

A Hindu approached, a sage. “Your karma is now set by this deed. There is nothing you can do. Accept death and on your next rebirth perhaps your soul will make more progress.” The sage calmly walked away.

A Buddhist monk approached and with compassion he looked down on the man and tried to teach him to meditate. “Try to extinguish your desires … for earthly freedom, even for life itself. With desire comes suffering. With the right mental attitude you too can attain nibbana.” The monk retreated from the pit with a beatific smile on his face.

The drunk man grumbled noisily to himself in the pangs of his pain that all men were the same. With much difficulty he slumped and forward and fell into a fitful sleep.

Suddenly he was rudely awoken by a rough fellow gently shaking him. This man had let himself down into the pit with a rope.

The descent was so difficult beset with sharp stones, briars and obstacles that his hands and body were bleeding.

He took a spare rope, tied it round the drunken man’s waist who fell silent in disbelief. The drunk felt himself dragged to the side of the pit whereupon his rescuer strapped them both together and raised them up on a pulley fixed into the edge of the top of the pit for that purpose.

As they both stood out of the pit into the sunshine, unshackled, the drunken man, who was now a little more sober, looked round. The stranger had gone but there was a rather odd charge that lingered on in the air. He did not feel alone.

He looked back into the pit and thought thankfully about the great sacrifice this Man had made to save him.

Am I the only one who's slightly confused at what this story is supposed to illustrate?

[Achronos]

Thank you for your considered reply, you have confirmed everything I expected of you. Nice to know I was spot on with my assessment of how you would reply. You can be on your way now.

I'm not Pavlov's dog, so like our God, I am not at your beck and call.

You came here to spout your prattle. That you are disappointed at my laughter is your problem.

[Achronos]

This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=94943#p94943 .

Bringing Tank's grandchildren into this is way past the line where appropriate discussion ends.

btw, that was strike 2.

No paparazzi here followed him here and brought them into the discussion. He's boasting over the automatons (since he faults God's giving free will, I take it that he tried to deprive his children of it) did that.

when accosted by well meaning street missionaries I can take the piss out of them mercilessly and have a real laugh at their ignorance. My kids are all normal people and completely superstition free. With the birth of my child another generation of the superstition free has arrived and they may actually be able to deal with the real issues humanity faces rather than worrying about what an imaginary, mythological issues like going to paradise or hell.

Also his sense of humor seems skewed. (Christianity as a joke)  But let's proceed to the substance of his argument, no?

An omnipotent and omniscient God who has abundant love created people, but instead of creating self-serving robots He created us to have free will, and then to allow us the exercise of free will (what's the point of having it without being able to use it?) He gave us a choice - eternal life, or death. We were tricked into thinking death was life, and we thus chose death. Instead of abandoning us to our choice, forever to be condemned to death as a final ending, He chose to become one of us, suffer, die, and rise, in order to not only save us, but to do so while leaving that free-will (the third gift, after love and life itself) intact and unharmed - to allow us to make that choice again.

Christianity teaches us to combat the real problems of the world (hunger, poverty, disease, abandonment, etc.) head-on, not out of feeling superior or empowered, but out of humble love for the other people; to give without expectation of repayment, or expectation of conversion.  Those who do not practice this are not Christian, and those who practice it imperfectly are, well, human.

So Tank admits to being a sadist?  What's the explanation for having "fun" by accosting "well meaning" people?  Your grandkids may be "superstition free" (which, by the way, we are, too), but they're not getting much of a lesson in interpersonal relationships.

We're really not called to "worry about" paradise or hell - we're supposed to care for people in the world, to pray for them and for us, grow in our relationship with God, and to gather together in thanksgiving for the blessings of life. If you find that objectionable, I'm interested in hearing why.