SPLIT: From The terrifying afterlife thread

[LegendarySandwich]

If He doesn't exist then why bother debating over Him, because obviously He doesn't exist.

If we Christians merely believe in a lie, why are all the atheists in such a huff? What will they gain if they do convince us?  And what will we gain if we are convinced?  Their desperation?  A lack of meaning to our lives? Their conviction that the only thing to look forward to is the grave?  Then what is the meaning of "our lie" (if we pretend for a moment that it is a lie), if God doesn't exist, and there is no meaning behind the word "truth"?  Are they perhaps trying to help us see the truth?  What truth? What do they have as a point of reference for "truth"? To what end, and for what reason, if "purpose" and "reason" do not exist in the universe?

So, let us assume that God does not exist. Let us assume that Christians are struggling in vain, and that in the end, they too will acquire what everyone does:  "a grave", and nothing more. So, do Christians really have something to gain?

Yes, they do. Because naturally (although it is not the basic reason for their faith), if God exists, they will gain the heavenly kingdom (Glorification). But if God does not exist, they again will have benefited, because they will feel solace throughout their life - they will have someone to tell their woes to in times of ultimate desperation, when other people are unable to console them. They feel that they have someone to protect them during their fears, and a life that feels like it is worth something and is meaningful. And yes, people like these are much happier than others, who don't believe.  So what if they don't live with all the comforts? So what if they don't get to savor everything? At the moment of death, none of the things that they savored will remain.  But for the faithful, the moment of death is something that they have anticipated, with hope and with courage, and not with fear and disappointment. And that is what true FREEDOM is about: not the hopelessness that the pessimist author and philosopher Kazantzakis had labeled as "freedom" (On his tombstone reads: "I HOPE FOR NOTHING. I FEAR NOTHING. I AM FREE"). To the faithful, their entire life is pleasurable, because they live it with faith and hope, without any fears and desperation; because even when confronting death in the person of a loved one, they remain steadfast to the hope that they will meet again. If the universe is just a coincedence (as Atheists want it to be) and truth is something relevant (as modern trends try to persuade us) then why doesn't this make a man of faith happier ?

These words are not a mere theory.  I myself had carried out my own personal research some time ago. I started to ask people of various ages and faiths to tell me how they would characterize their life in one or two words. The responses that I collected were very many, but the conclusion was only one:  I did not record a single believing person who declared himself to be miserable. And not a single faith-less person that declared himself to be blissfully happy!

So again I'll ask if God does not exist, in any religion, why debate over Him? You are merely debating over something that does not (in the atheist view) exist. So you are essentially wasting your time arguing over a non-existent entity, that to me sounds alot more foolish than someone who does believe in God or a god.

Sigh.

I'm pretty sure this has been said A BUNCH OF TIMES ALREADY, but I'll say it again: the debate over God matters for two reasons:

1. Religion can be dangerous. Take Islamic extremists as an example. Yes, yes, most religious people don't go and bomb buildings, but it's not just radical things like that. A lot of them oppose the rights of homosexuals, teaching proper science to children, stem cell research, etc. etc. Yes, yes, not all believers even do that sort of stuff, and with them I have no qualms.

2. At least for me personally, it's not about getting people to stop believing in God, it's getting people to think critically, skeptically, with an open-mind, and the like. I view  atheism as the natural result of this, but even if it isn't for some people, then it's okay, because most likely they will have stopped doing crazy things like some of the stuff I mentioned in the first reason.

3. It can be fun -- some people like to debate about certain things. Why argue about which sports team is best? It's pointless.

(Yes, I know I said I would only have two reasons...sue me  )

[Achronos]

Everytime I try to sign on to this board I always get a request to enter in an image confirmation code, someone want to get into my account that bad?

2. At least for me personally, it's not about getting people to stop believing in God, it's getting people to think critically, skeptically, with an open-mind, and the like. I view  atheism as the natural result of this, but even if it isn't for some people, then it's okay, because most likely they will have stopped doing crazy things like some of the stuff I mentioned in the first reason.

This is the problem with the West. The most prevalent disease for the Western man is rationalism. Although the modern rationalist worldview was born in Western Europe during the Enlightenment era, it has progressively been inundating the entire world.

Ultimately, the malady of modern rationalism comes down to one essential ingredient: trusting the conclusions of one’s logical mind. We of the modern West have been raised with an underlying assumption, summed up in the well-known phrase of Rene Descartes at the beginning of the Enlightenment era: "I think, therefore I am." The worldview of modern rationalism, having lost an awareness of the immortal soul in man, leads us to believe that our thoughts are who we are, and, conversely, that we are the sum total of our thoughts. Therefore, we automatically feel that we have to trust our thoughts, to take a stand for them, to defend them as we would our own flesh and blood.

This is the essential fallacy of the modern worldview. It is precisely by placing absolute trust in the formulations of the fallen human mind â€" rather than in divine revelation â€" that modern Western man has come to water down or abandon his once-cherished Christian Faith. As an Orthodox Christian living in the West I must act against this influence by refusing to accord outright trust my thoughts. The devil does not hunt after those who are lost; he hunts after those who are aware, those who are close to God. He takes from them trust in God and begins to afflict them with self-assurance, logic, thinking, criticism. Therefore we should not trust our logical minds. Never believe your thoughts. Live simply and without thinking too much, like a child with his father. Faith without too much thinking works wonders. The logical mind hinders the Grace of God and miracles. Practice patience without judging with the logical mind.

We ought always to be careful and be in constant hesitation about whether things are really as we think. For when someone is constantly occupied with his thoughts and trusts in them, the devil will manage things in such a way that he will make the man evil, even if by nature he was good. The ancient fathers did not trust their thoughts at all, but even in the smallest things, when they had to give an answer, they addressed the matter in their prayer, joining to it fasting, in order in some way to ‘force’ Divine Grace to inform them what was the right answer according to God. And when they received the 'information,’ they gave the answer.

Today I observe that even with great matters, when someone asks, before he has even had the time to complete his question, we interrupt him and answer him. This shows that not only do we not seek enlightenment from the Grace of God, but we do not even judge with the reason God gave us. On the contrary, whatever our thoughts suggest to us, immediately, without hesitation, we trust it and consent to it, often with disastrous results.

Almost all of us view thoughts as being something simple and natural, and that is why we naively trust them. However, we should neither trust them nor accept them. Thoughts are like airplanes flying in the air. If you ignore them, there is no problem. If you pay attention to them, you create an airport inside your head and permit them to land!

It can be fun -- some people like to debate about certain things. Why argue about which sports team is best? It's pointless.

[/quote]
Yet whatever "worldview" we take, it defines who we are as a person and it shapes our actions and thoughts. That is hardly pointless.

[LegendarySandwich]

Everytime I try to sign on to this board I always get a request to enter in an image confirmation code, someone want to get into my account that bad?

I'll confess, it's me. As part 4 of the Atheist Global Plan of Domination dictates, I intend to hack into your account and post a bunch of troll stuff to make Christians look bad.

1. Religion can be dangerous. Take Islamic extremists as an example. Yes, yes, most religious people don't go and bomb buildings, but it's not just radical things like that. A lot of them oppose the rights of homosexuals, teaching proper science to children, stem cell research, etc. etc. Yes, yes, not all believers even do that sort of stuff, and with them I have no qualms.

Atheism can be just as dangerous, and you will have extremists (or what are known as militant atheists) in Atheism.

Haahaaaaaahaaahahahahahahahhaaa!

Yeah, right. What most people call militant atheists or fundamentalist atheists are old men who write books that may offend the sensibilities of religious people. What most people call extremist theists are people who will blow up a bus for Allah. Try nice, but no.

With religion, it depends on each religion, but they all have internal inconsistencies that are fatal IMHO. Studying a religion, I first take it as if it were true, try to see how it looks at the world.  None, however, have matched Christianity, in particular Orthodoxy.

I am extremely skeptical of this.

2. At least for me personally, it's not about getting people to stop believing in God, it's getting people to think critically, skeptically, with an open-mind, and the like. I view  atheism as the natural result of this, but even if it isn't for some people, then it's okay, because most likely they will have stopped doing crazy things like some of the stuff I mentioned in the first reason.

This is the problem with the West. The most prevalent disease for the Western man is rationalism. Although the modern rationalist worldview was born in Western Europe during the Enlightenment era, it has progressively been inundating the entire world.

Yes, I'm sure the problem with the West is that people are too rational. Nice try, but once again, no.

Blah blah blah thinking is bad blah blah blah trust in God blah blah blah you can't trust logic

The statement that logic is correct is an axiom.

It can be fun -- some people like to debate about certain things. Why argue about which sports team is best? It's pointless.

[/quote]
Yet whatever "worldview" we take, it defines who we are as a person and it shapes our actions and thoughts. That is hardly pointless.[/quote]
I'd like to point out that atheism isn't a world-view, although that doesn't contradict what you say. This argument seems to be in favor of atheism from my perspective -- and I said earlier, I believe that atheism/agnosticism/skepticism/free-thinking/whatever is one of the many natural and logical steps one takes when starting to think rationally and examine some of their long-held and core beliefs. So to me, atheism = good, generally.

[LegendarySandwich]

Everytime I try to sign on to this board I always get a request to enter in an image confirmation code, someone want to get into my account that bad?

I'll confess, it's me. As part 4 of the Atheist Global Plan of Domination dictates, I intend to hack into your account and post a bunch of troll stuff to make Christians look bad.

1. Religion can be dangerous. Take Islamic extremists as an example. Yes, yes, most religious people don't go and bomb buildings, but it's not just radical things like that. A lot of them oppose the rights of homosexuals, teaching proper science to children, stem cell research, etc. etc. Yes, yes, not all believers even do that sort of stuff, and with them I have no qualms.

Atheism can be just as dangerous, and you will have extremists (or what are known as militant atheists) in Atheism.

Haahaaaaaahaaahahahahahahahhaaa!

Yeah, right. What most people call militant atheists or fundamentalist atheists are old men who write books that may offend the sensibilities of religious people. What most people call extremist theists are people who will blow up a bus for Allah. Try nice, but no.

With religion, it depends on each religion, but they all have internal inconsistencies that are fatal IMHO. Studying a religion, I first take it as if it were true, try to see how it looks at the world.  None, however, have matched Christianity, in particular Orthodoxy.

I am extremely skeptical of this.

2. At least for me personally, it's not about getting people to stop believing in God, it's getting people to think critically, skeptically, with an open-mind, and the like. I view  atheism as the natural result of this, but even if it isn't for some people, then it's okay, because most likely they will have stopped doing crazy things like some of the stuff I mentioned in the first reason.

This is the problem with the West. The most prevalent disease for the Western man is rationalism. Although the modern rationalist worldview was born in Western Europe during the Enlightenment era, it has progressively been inundating the entire world.

Yes, I'm sure the problem with the West is that people are too rational. Nice try, but once again, no.

Blah blah blah thinking is bad blah blah blah trust in God blah blah blah you can't trust logic

The statement that logic is correct is an axiom.

It can be fun -- some people like to debate about certain things. Why argue about which sports team is best? It's pointless.

Yet whatever "worldview" we take, it defines who we are as a person and it shapes our actions and thoughts. That is hardly pointless.

I'd like to point out that atheism isn't a world-view, although that doesn't contradict what you say. This argument seems to be in favor of atheism from my perspective -- and I said earlier, I believe that atheism/agnosticism/skepticism/free-thinking/whatever is one of the many natural and logical steps one takes when starting to think rationally and examine some of their long-held and core beliefs. So to me, atheism = good, generally.[/quote]

EDIT:

This is the essential fallacy of the modern worldview. It is precisely by placing absolute trust in the formulations of the fallen human mind â€" rather than in divine revelation â€" that modern Western man has come to water down or abandon his once-cherished Christian Faith. As an Orthodox Christian living in the West I must act against this influence by refusing to accord outright trust my thoughts. The devil does not hunt after those who are lost; he hunts after those who are aware, those who are close to God. He takes from them trust in God and begins to afflict them with self-assurance, logic, thinking, criticism. Therefore we should not trust our logical minds. Never believe your thoughts. Live simply and without thinking too much, like a child with his father. Faith without too much thinking works wonders. The logical mind hinders the Grace of God and miracles. Practice patience without judging with the logical mind.

This is some exactly the reason why we must try to spread logical thinking and rationalism, and as a result, atheism. Mindsets like the above are downright dangerous. This is what religion does to people. This is why it must be fought.

[Achronos]

This is some exactly the reason why we must try to spread logical thinking and rationalism, and as a result, atheism.

Ah yes, because atheism is the natural outcome of logical thinking and rationalism *rollseyes*

Mindsets like the above are downright dangerous. This is what religion does to people. This is why it must be fought.

You're mistaking "religion" for unthinking irrationality. Try applying some of this supposed logical thinking and rationalism that you think you're utilizing and start to think above your false representations and silly mischaracterizations.

I am also saying that too much thinking, not thinking merely, is the problem.

[Achronos]

And actually, recent studies show that if people were trying to make decisions based solely on logic we would get stuck in a loop.  All logic can tell us is what the outcome(s) of a particular decision might be, not which outcome is preferable.  Preference is a value judgment, and thus ruled by the intuitive and emotional parts of the brain.

[Whitney]

And actually, recent studies show that if people were trying to make decisions based solely on logic we would get stuck in a loop.  All logic can tell us is what the outcome(s) of a particular decision might be, not which outcome is preferable.  Preference is a value judgment, and thus ruled by the intuitive and emotional parts of the brain.

Depends on what you are trying to decide.

Logic works very well on math problems...not so well on what color to paint a room.

[Achronos]

I also wanted to say there is tremendous beauty and consistency in the universe.  To me, that holds quite a sacred value to creation.

The fact that we are advanced enough to manipulate things in this world, and eventually in the universe holds an even higher level of sacredness.

But you might say "But we have come to understand that 'beauty' is nothing but a psychological response that has been programmed into us by evolution. It is an accomplishment to understand this fact, to rise above our evolutionary programming, and to dismiss what we want to believe in favour of what is real"

By the same reasoning couldn't I argue against anything you claim to be reality? Beauty might be a psychological response, but that doesn't mean that it is any less real than a star or blade of grass or atom. For what is observation but a neurological response that has been programmed into us by the same evolution?  

Just because I know the wall I see is an optical response created by the reaction of light on the retinal nerve doesn't mean I can rise above my evolutionary programming and keep driving straight ahead. By ignoring my evolutionary programming in this circumstance I take myself outside of evolution altogether!

The idea of the "beautiful" and the "sacred" is still evolutionarily advantageous to our species. I find a forest beautiful, and good thing, because it keeps the carbon dioxide levels down and emits the oxygen my species needs to survive. I find a woman beautiful, she happens to hold the preferred genes for the continuation and betterment of my species. I hold life sacred, especially human life, and this prevents my species from going into extinction due to genocide or atomic war.

Even if you take the observation of the senses out of the equation and hold to strictly what is mathematically provable, you still can't rid us of beauty. Beauty can be mathematically defined, we prefer certain patterns because of the mathematical soundness inherent in them. The human face possessed by the person with the best genetic contributions will have a more perfect proportion. The forest grows according to mathematical principles we still don't entirely comprehend. And life holds within it a near infinite mathematical complexity and harmony.

What is shaped by evolution is necessarily that which is shaped by nature. If beauty is in nature, surely, our brain develops both an emotional and a logical sense of what beauty is. Just as evolution shapes my discernment of colors, so in beauty, sacredness, and value of things around us.

[Achronos]

And actually, recent studies show that if people were trying to make decisions based solely on logic we would get stuck in a loop.  All logic can tell us is what the outcome(s) of a particular decision might be, not which outcome is preferable.  Preference is a value judgment, and thus ruled by the intuitive and emotional parts of the brain.

Depends on what you are trying to decide.

Logic works very well on math problems...not so well on what color to paint a room.

Math isn't making a decision.  When I look at 2+2 (assuming base 10) there is no decision as to what the sum is, I can prefer 5 or 12 all day long, but the answer is 4.  Pi is always going to be equal to the circumference divided by the diameter, no matter how lazy I'm feeling 3.14 is always going to be short an infinite amount of decimal places.

Questions like should I have the grapefruit or the orange, or should I date this girl or that one, or how should I treat this particular person I am interacting with have no logical solution.  All logic can tell me is that the grapefruit tastes different than the orange, it's up to me if I prefer bitter or sweet.  Logic might tell me that one girl will make me happier while the other turns me on more, it's my preference as to whether or not I'd prefer happiness or miserable indulgence.

[Inevitable Droid]

This is the essential fallacy of the modern worldview. It is precisely by placing absolute trust in the formulations of the fallen human mind â€" rather than in divine revelation â€" that modern Western man has come to water down or abandon his once-cherished Christian Faith. As an Orthodox Christian living in the West I must act against this influence by refusing to accord outright trust my thoughts. The devil does not hunt after those who are lost; he hunts after those who are aware, those who are close to God. He takes from them trust in God and begins to afflict them with self-assurance, logic, thinking, criticism. Therefore we should not trust our logical minds. Never believe your thoughts. Live simply and without thinking too much, like a child with his father. Faith without too much thinking works wonders. The logical mind hinders the Grace of God and miracles. Practice patience without judging with the logical mind.

This is some exactly the reason why we must try to spread logical thinking and rationalism, and as a result, atheism. Mindsets like the above are downright dangerous. This is what religion does to people. This is why it must be fought.

I strongly agree.  Passionately.  Fiercely.  This is the enemy.  This is the legacy of Abraham, who would have butchered his own son because the voices in his head told him to.  Alive today he would have been prosecuted and put away in an asylum for the criminally insane.  His followers number in the billions.  Consider that.

[The Magic Pudding]

Achronos wrote:This is the essential fallacy of the modern worldview. It is precisely by placing absolute trust in the formulations of the fallen human mind â€" rather than in divine revelation

I don't have absolute trust in the formulations of human brains, they could well be the death of us all.
What else is on offer, formulations delivered bay an alleged 2,000 year dead carpenter, which have had the Chinese whispers treatment?

[LegendarySandwich]

This is some exactly the reason why we must try to spread logical thinking and rationalism, and as a result, atheism.

Ah yes, because atheism is the natural outcome of logical thinking and rationalism *rollseyes*

You seem to be saying that sarcastically, yet it makes perfect sense. I'm confused  

Mindsets like the above are downright dangerous. This is what religion does to people. This is why it must be fought.

You're mistaking "religion" for unthinking irrationality.

The two are closely related.

Try applying some of this supposed logical thinking and rationalism that you think you're utilizing and start to think above your false representations and silly mischaracterizations.

Uh huh.

I am also saying that too much thinking, not thinking merely, is the problem.

Once again, our problem is not thinking too much. Rather, it's the exact opposite. This is clearly evident if you just look around (at least, in the good 'ol U.S. of A).

[LegendarySandwich]

And actually, recent studies show that if people were trying to make decisions based solely on logic we would get stuck in a loop.  All logic can tell us is what the outcome(s) of a particular decision might be, not which outcome is preferable.  Preference is a value judgment, and thus ruled by the intuitive and emotional parts of the brain.

Depends on what you are trying to decide.

Logic works very well on math problems...not so well on what color to paint a room.

Math isn't making a decision.  When I look at 2+2 (assuming base 10) there is no decision as to what the sum is, I can prefer 5 or 12 all day long, but the answer is 4.  Pi is always going to be equal to the circumference divided by the diameter, no matter how lazy I'm feeling 3.14 is always going to be short an infinite amount of decimal places.

Questions like should I have the grapefruit or the orange, or should I date this girl or that one, or how should I treat this particular person I am interacting with have no logical solution.  All logic can tell me is that the grapefruit tastes different than the orange, it's up to me if I prefer bitter or sweet.  Logic might tell me that one girl will make me happier while the other turns me on more, it's my preference as to whether or not I'd prefer happiness or miserable indulgence.

Wrong again...kind of. Logic and rational thinking will tell you that the choice you prefer is best in these situations.

[Achronos]

You seem to be saying that sarcastically, yet it makes perfect sense. I'm confused  

Atheism undermines science, because science begins on the supposition that the universe is rational and intelligible.  This is a belief that does not arise from science, but one that must be held before it.  Because pure reductionist materialism, which atheists generally subscribe to, is based on the premise of random unguided processes.  If we then reduce the nature of believing something, i.e. the way our brain works, to the physics and chemistry of neurological structures, this raises a question:  If my beliefs, and my theories are simply the result of the motion of atoms in my brain produced by an unguided mindless process, why should I believe them?  

Atheism undercuts the scientific endeavor.  An argument that purports to be a rationality rising from utter irrationality doesn’t even rise to the level of a delusion.  It is logically incoherent.  

As for the supposed "problem of evil" that you think Christians have no answer for, I'd like to point out a few things.  Tucked away within the assertion that the world is filled with pointless evil is a hidden premise, namely, that if evil appears pointless to me, then it must be pointless.  This reasoning is, of course, fallacious.  Just because you can’t see or imagine a good reason why God might allow something to happen doesn’t mean there can’t be one.  We see lurking within this supposedly hard-nosed skepticism an enormous faith in one’s own cognitive faculties.  If our minds can’t plumb the depths of the universe for good answers to suffering, well then, there can’t be any!  This is faith of a high order.

[LegendarySandwich]

You seem to be saying that sarcastically, yet it makes perfect sense. I'm confused  

Atheism undermines science, because science begins on the supposition that the universe is rational and intelligible.

This is an axiom. Without it, we wouldn't be able to learn anything.

This is a belief that does not arise from science, but one that must be held before it.

Again, axiom.

Because pure reductionist materialism, which atheists generally subscribe to, is based on the premise of random unguided processes.  If we then reduce the nature of believing something, i.e. the way our brain works, to the physics and chemistry of neurological structures, this raises a question:  If my beliefs, and my theories are simply the result of the motion of atoms in my brain produced by an unguided mindless process, why should I believe them?

Why shouldn't I?

Atheism undercuts the scientific endeavor.  An argument that purports to be a rationality rising from utter irrationality doesn’t even rise to the level of a delusion.  It is logically incoherent.

Yeahhhhhhhhhh...whatever you say, buddy.

As for the supposed "problem of evil" that you think Christians have no answer for, I'd like to point out a few things.  Tucked away within the assertion that the world is filled with pointless evil is a hidden premise, namely, that if evil appears pointless to me, then it must be pointless.

God made us in his image. Why would he not want us to understand the world? Doesn't he want us to use the logic and rationality he gave us?

And Epicurus isn't asking why pointless evil exists, he's asking why evil exists at all. If God is perfect and can do anything, why couldn't he make things happen the way he wants them to without using evil? The answer: he can.

This reasoning is, of course, fallacious. Just because you can’t see or imagine a good reason why God might allow something to happen doesn’t mean there can’t be one.

But it's pretty good evidence that there isn't one.

We see lurking within this supposedly hard-nosed skepticism an enormous faith in one’s own cognitive faculties.  If our minds can’t plumb the depths of the universe for good answers to suffering, well then, there can’t be any!  This is faith of a high order.

Again, the "belief" that logic and rational thinking are correct is an axiom. Without it, we wouldn't be able to do anything meaningful. And since your god doesn't exist, we can't trust him to help with anything.