SPLIT: From The terrifying afterlife thread

[Inevitable Droid]

The moderating staff has chosen to split this thread from the original, "Terrifying Thought of no Afterlife", as it has gone on and off topic and seems to veer off permanently here. Feel free to continue the general religion talk that is going on here, but for the original thread go here, where DJAkuna had the last on topic post:
viewtopic.php?p=94307#p94307

As an atheist I perceive no religious group as closer to holding the truth than any other.

It interests me how obvious this is, yet the faithful shrug it off.  All the reasons a Greek Orthodox could give for holding onto faith, a Muslim could give, in precisely the same words.

GREEK ORTHODOX: "I hold onto my faith because I was raised in it, it's how I think - and how I think isn't causing me any problems so why should I change?  Plus the wise elders of my community live by this faith, and find meaning and happiness in it.  I too live by it, and find meaning and happiness in it.  My people for many centuries have lived by this faith, and have found meaning and happiness in it."

MUSLIM: "I hold onto my faith because I was raised in it, it's how I think - and how I think isn't causing me any problems so why should I change?  Plus the wise elders of my community live by this faith, and find meaning and happiness in it.  I too live by it, and find meaning and happiness in it.  My people for many centuries have lived by this faith, and have found meaning and happiness in it."

ATHEIST: "Uh, guys, either one of you is right and the other wrong, or both of you are wrong, or both of you are right.  Which do you think is most likely?"

GREEK ORTHODOX: "I'm right.  He's wrong."

MUSLIM: "Go to hell.  I'm right.  You're wrong."

GREEK ORTHODOX: "No, you go to hell.  You will, by the way."

MUSLIM: "Infidel!"

ATHEIST: "Bye, guys.  I smell Crusaders and jumbo jets in your future.  I'll keep my distance."

[Achronos]

Why Christianity?  Because the Trinity and the Incarnation is central to our faith, which are essential for our salvation. What does our salvation entail? Living life as God Incarnate lived, dying with Him as He died, rising up with Him, and not merely eternal life, but growth and love being engrafted within the Triune relationship of the Godhead, from which my prayers have given. God became incarnate so that I too may become a "son of God" by the life of the Holy Spirit living in me, putting me in direct relationship with the Father. It is a profound and significant part of our theology. It's blasphemy with the Muslims, unfulfilled with the Jews, incorrect with the Hindus, too much selflessness with the Buddhists, and contradictory to many other faiths.

If there was one truth writ large across the heavens would it not permit all seekers of religious truth to arrive at a more unified account?  The enormous diversity of belief tells me the many interpretations are arrived at very subjectively.

No, that is what you want to see, so you 'see' it?

The history of science doesn't present a unified account, yet you seem to hold that they all have been looking at the same objective reality.

That a 1000 people each have a different guess on how many jelly beans are in the jar doesn't change the fact that there is only one correct answer in that contest.

They are based on personal reflection, introspection, and interpretation of a bewildering variety of religious texts.  One believer's truths are another's false beliefs.

So you keep on asserting, and have yet to commence the proving.

And you are very fond of dumping all "believers" into a very broad trough. Like saying because Ptolomy and Copernicus disagree, all astromony is based on personal reflection, introspection, and interpretation of a bewildering variety of observations of the same sky.

It seems believers can't agree.

Nor should we, given your broad definition. What concord to Christ with Belial?

It should be no surprise that an atheist would shrug and declare them all false.

Of course. It's just a cop out that absolves them in their own minds. Atheism is the opiate of the dissolute.

I don't claim to know much about the Greek Orthodox Church, and I don't understand much better what your laughter signifies.  Do you mean to imply that there are numerous accounts explaining daily life in Heaven or do you laugh because the question highlights my ignorance for a different reason?

I'm laughing because you come to this thread to tell me off, without a clue it seems about knowing about what the Orthodox believe. If this was just a general forum, I wouldn't laugh so heartily. But to come where your ignorance on vital points is going to be seen right away...that takes hubris.

Only because you disconnected the sentence from the following one that it belongs with.  I am not implying that I buy into the Jehovah's Witness theology.  I don't.  I am simply amused by the claim that my great-grandparents are considered, by the Witness, to hold this special honour.

I have family members who are counted among the 144,000. My great grandparents were members and introduced an entire branch of my family to the faith. So what they think matters to me. My father wasn't converted but my mother told me that many of his religious ideas sounded very similar to that of my great-grandmother, and I got a lot of my early Christian views from him.  So, I am interested in what they think.

I do believe that I bold faced it in the original response.

My great grandparents were members and introduced an entire branch of my family to the faith.  So what they think matters to me.  My father wasn't converted but my mother told me that many of his religious ideas sounded very similar to that of my great-grandmother, and I got a lot of my early Christian views from him.  So, I am interested in what they think.

I thought so.

There isn't any belief system that can teach me anything about God, in my view,

Yes, and per the principles of invincible ignorance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible ... ce_fallacy
You set out to "prove" that.

but each can inform me what they think their faith's theology reveals.  As an atheist I perceive no religious group as closer to holding the truth than any other.

Let me ask you this: do you perceive any one world-view as closer to the truth than some other view? For instance, if world-view A says "humanity evolved from non-human primates" and world-view B says "humanity did not evolve from non-human primates", would you state that neither world-view is closer to the truth than the other?

It interests me how obvious this is, yet the faithful shrug it off.  All the reasons a Greek Orthodox could give for holding onto faith, a Muslim could give, in precisely the same words.

I know a thing or two about Islam, and, having a doctorate in Systematic Theology at the U of E, a thing or two about Christians, and no, they cannot. Wrong again.

GREEK ORTHODOX: "I hold onto my faith because I was raised in it, it's how I think - and how I think isn't causing me any problems so why should I change?  Plus the wise elders of my community live by this faith, and find meaning and happiness in it.  I too live by it, and find meaning and happiness in it.  My people for many centuries have lived by this faith, and have found meaning and happiness in it."

MUSLIM: "I hold onto my faith because I was raised in it, it's how I think - and how I think isn't causing me any problems so why should I change?  Plus the wise elders of my community live by this faith, and find meaning and happiness in it.  I too live by it, and find meaning and happiness in it.  My people for many centuries have lived by this faith, and have found meaning and happiness in it."

ATHEIST: "Uh, guys, either one of you is right and the other wrong, or both of you are wrong, or both of you are right.  Which do you think is most likely?"

No, both cannot be right.

GREEK ORTHODOX: "I'm right.  He's wrong."

MUSLIM: "Go to hell.  I'm right.  You're wrong."

GREEK ORTHODOX: "No, you go to hell.  You will, by the way."

MUSLIM: "Infidel!"

ATHEIST: "Bye, guys.  I smell Crusaders and jumbo jets in your future.  I'll keep my distance."

Do you use the same card-board characters and strawmen in your novels?

I know many people, myself included, were not rasied in Orthodoxy-in fact, we have some members who were raised in Islam-and hence have changed, some of us more, some of us less, your little script seems a little out of place.

By the way, the atheists Stalin and Hitler killed more than even the Crusaders could dream of.

[Inevitable Droid]

It interests me how obvious this is, yet the faithful shrug it off.  All the reasons a Greek Orthodox could give for holding onto faith, a Muslim could give, in precisely the same words.

I know a thing or two about Islam, and, having a doctorate in Systematic Theology at the U of E, a thing or two about Christians, and no, they cannot. Wrong again.

OK.  I will ask you to state why you hold onto faith in words no Muslim could echo.  Not what your faith is, but why you hold onto it.  Thus, "a personal relationship with Jesus," if you offered that, would be echoed by, "a personal relationship with Allah," which many Muslims experience five times a day, on their knees.

[McQ]

By the way, the atheists Stalin and Hitler killed more than even the Crusaders could dream of.

Wow. I have been taking you seriously right up until this point. Your PhD apparently didn't cover Hitler. He remained a believer in god right to his death. Although there is much inconsistency with regard to what his true beliefs were (mainly because Hitler, himself gave conflicting statements throughout his life), he remained a believer in god and the supernatural. That excludes him from the atheist label.

Regardless, here's the thing. It wouldn't matter if Hitler (or Stalin) professed any belief whatsoever. They were insane, and their atrocities were created and carried out because of their insanity, not any belief system of religion. So even if Hitler went to mass every week, and took communion, I would never say something so atrociously silly as, "He committed all those crimes because he was catholic."

You just lost a what credibility you had in my mind with this arrogant and inaccurate statement.

[Sophus]

By the way, the atheists Stalin and Hitler killed more than even the Crusaders could dream of.

[youtube:1vhzwkay]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP_iNCGH9kY[/youtube:1vhzwkay]

If Hitler was an atheist then I'm a fairy princess.

[Achronos]

OK.  I will ask you to state why you hold onto faith in words no Muslim could echo.  Not what your faith is, but why you hold onto it.  Thus, "a personal relationship with Jesus," if you offered that, would be echoed by, "a personal relationship with Allah," which many Muslims experience five times a day, on their knees.

LOL. Ignorance on parade. No, they don't. At least the majority: there are Sufis would speak of "a personal relationship with Allah", but the shar'i minded majority of Muslims, in particular the Sunni majority, do not.  Their goal is submission to Allah, a being of absolute will, not having a relatiohship with Him.  Except slave.

Wow. I have been taking you seriously right up until this point.

Why did my BS meter just go off?

Your PhD apparently didn't cover Hitler.

Hitler didn't teach systematic theology.

He remained a believer in god right to his death.

Yes, I have seen the desparate attempts of atheists to prove this and no I don't believe they have succeeded.

Although there is much inconsistency with regard to what his true beliefs were (mainly because Hitler, himself gave conflicting statements throughout his life), he remained a believer in god and the supernatural. That excludes him from the atheist label.

Orthodox atheism. What a concept. Are you speaking ex cathedra on that matter of faith?

One might consider believers in dialectical materialism, progressivism, Enlightenment, the Human Spirit, whatever, a believer in the Supernatural. Indeed by your broad definition you must. So he might consider Hitler to have been a believer in god, but not in God.

Regardless, here's the thing. It wouldn't matter if Hitler (or Stalin) professed any belief whatsoever. They were insane,

I didn't know anything about your MD in Psychology/Psychiatry.

and their atrocities were created and carried out because of their insanity, not any belief system of religion. So even if Hitler went to mass every week, and took communion, I would never say something so atrociously silly as, "He committed all those crimes because he was catholic."

One can, and many have, make that argument. That there is no truth to it-the Vatican doesn't teach racialism-is how it fails.

You just lost a what credibility you had in my mind with this arrogant and inaccurate statement.

LOL. So I've lost credibility with the atheist. What will I do. :|

[Inevitable Droid]

LOL. Ignorance on parade. No, they don't. At least the majority: there are Sufis would speak of "a personal relationship with Allah", but the shar'i minded majority of Muslims, in particular the Sunni majority, do not.  Their goal is submission to Allah, a being of absolute will, not having a relatiohship with Him.  Except slave.

Submission is the relationship.  Allah is Master, Muslim is slave.  That's the relationship.  It's personal, meaningful, inspirational, humbling, ennobling, and fulfilling for those who practice it.  

Here's a link: People's Relationship with Allah - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1158658516938&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah%2FLSELayout

Here's another: Defining Your Relationship with Allah - http://www.helium.com/items/1534543-defining-ones-relationship-with-allah

It is self-evident to all disinterested parties that Islam and Greek Orthodoxy and Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism and Judaism and any others all have precisely the same right to claim their path is the true one.  All base their claims on the life experiences of the individual and the collective, alive today and extending backwards into the past for centuries.  All claim their paths are personal, meaningful, inspirational, humbling, ennobling, and fulfilling for those who practice them.  All claim traditions that have stood the test of time.  All claim lineages of wise and devout leaders who speak in the name of God by the grace of God.

[Sophus]

Achronos, I'm curious, what part of "Gott Mit Uns" sounds atheist you? Why don't you try backing your assertions? Please, enlighten us stupid atheists....

LOL. Ignorance on parade. No, they don't. At least the majority: there are Sufis would speak of "a personal relationship with Allah", but the shar'i minded majority of Muslims, in particular the Sunni majority, do not. Their goal is submission to Allah, a being of absolute will, not having a relatiohship with Him. Except slave.

Muslims are told to pray five times a day to keep a good relationship with Allah. What did you say you majored in? From where?

[McQ]

Wow. I have been taking you seriously right up until this point.

Why did my BS meter just go off?

I really don't know, considering I have been the one atheist on the forum defending you, telling people to stop the name calling, to treat you in a civil manner. I've been taking your side and was impressed with much of what you said up until now, and I've been saying so. So your sarcasm doesn't fly with me. It's childish and uncalled for.

Your PhD apparently didn't cover Hitler.

Hitler didn't teach systematic theology.

So what? He murdered millions, and historians agree on many aspects of his life and thought processes. What's your point?

He remained a believer in god right to his death.

Yes, I have seen the desparate attempts of atheists to prove this and no I don't believe they have succeeded.

Show me the desperate attempts by atheists. Then I'll show you what legitimate historians say, what the people closest to Hitler said, and we'll see who's got the legitimate statement.

Although there is much inconsistency with regard to what his true beliefs were (mainly because Hitler, himself gave conflicting statements throughout his life), he remained a believer in god and the supernatural. That excludes him from the atheist label.

Orthodox atheism. What a concept. Are you speaking ex cathedra on that matter of faith?

One might consider believers in dialectical materialism, progressivism, Enlightenment, the Human Spirit, whatever, a believer in the Supernatural. Indeed by your broad definition you must. So he might consider Hitler to have been a believer in god, but not in God.

It's simple. Anyone who believes in a god is not an atheist. Or even better, one who believes in many gods, but not some, would be an atheist of some gods if it makes you feel better. For all your continued smart-assed, uncalled for remarks, you don't win by now trying to redefine atheism. A belief in the god of the bible, as Hitler had, disqualifies him as an atheist.

Regardless, here's the thing. It wouldn't matter if Hitler (or Stalin) professed any belief whatsoever. They were insane,

I didn't know anything about your MD in Psychology/Psychiatry.

There's a lot you don't know about me. But the fact is that one needs no degree to repeat what is already widely known about Hitler. I don't need to be his personal doctor to be able to say that he was insane.

and their atrocities were created and carried out because of their insanity, not any belief system of religion. So even if Hitler went to mass every week, and took communion, I would never say something so atrociously silly as, "He committed all those crimes because he was catholic."

One can, and many have, make that argument. That there is no truth to it-the Vatican doesn't teach racialism-is how it fails.

Ummm...I just said that. What's your point?

You just lost a what credibility you had in my mind with this arrogant and inaccurate statement.

LOL. So I've lost credibility with the atheist. What will I do. :|

If I were you, I'd try to regain it. This atheist has the ability to kick your snarky ass right out of here. This atheist doesn't appreciate that you failed to appreciate the extra mile I went on your behalf, only for you to come off like a punk.
So I suggest an attitude change right quick. That fact is what you claimed is patently false and you should be ashamed to even trot it out and spout it like it's the truth when it has been discredited.

[Achronos]

Submission is the relationship.  Allah is Master, Muslim is slave.

You're forgetting about free-will which is the hallmark of a genuine relationship.  In Islam, if you leave - you die.  Does that sound like a relationship?  If so, then you might wish to read up on co-dependency.

It is self-evident to all disinterested parties...

Perhaps when you become genuinely interested and not just the cut-and-paste variety of interest, you'll have a better grasp of these things.  I won't hold my breath, though.

You know chanting His name over and over whilst spinning ain't a relationship though. Debatable? Only if you can call a school writing the name of the latest dreamboat on her notebook, over and over, true and lasting love.

Achronos, I'm curious, what part of "Gott Mit Uns" sounds atheist you? Why don't you try backing your assertions? Please, enlighten us stupid atheists....

Because its a slogan. In the U.S., atheists use money that states, "In God we Trust". It is no indicator whatsoever of any religious belief.

The phrase "Gott mit uns" "God with us" was on the belt buckles long before Hitler, who would have worn one like this

in WWI. It had been the slogan of the German military since at least 1876 (I've seen collections of military etc. from then with the phrase all over)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns

If I am in the mood and have the time to kill, I might actually go through the silly skit. But off the top of my head:

Hitler can claim to be a "catholic."  I worked with a couple who were "catholic" and sent their children to "catholic" school for a better education and morals, but were very put out that they had to take the "supernatural" stuff too like first confession: they were agnostic/atheist in belief, but "catholic."  I've known atheists who insisted on having their children baptized for "cultural reasons" though they were "atheist" catholics, and I've known Jews in mixed marriages who were atheist but insisted on raising their children "Jewish" (oddly enough, two of them the gentile was devote Christians, the spent his childhood on mission in the Pacific atolls).  Like you said Hitler "gave conflicting statements throughout his life," but he was far from alone in that.

No time for more.

What did you say you majored in? From where?

Systematic Theology, University of Edinburgh. Sophus, you would benefit from a good, basic World Religions 101 class.

[Ihateyoumike]

[Sophus]

If I am in the mood and have the time to kill, I might actually go through the silly skit. But off the top of my head:

Hitler can claim to be a "catholic."  I worked with a couple who were "catholic" and sent their children to "catholic" school for a better education and morals, but were very put out that they had to take the "supernatural" stuff too like first confession: they were agnostic/atheist in belief, but "catholic."  I've known atheists who insisted on having their children baptized for "cultural reasons" though they were "atheist" catholics, and I've known Jews in mixed marriages who were atheist but insisted on raising their children "Jewish" (oddly enough, two of them the gentile was devote Christians, the spent his childhood on mission in the Pacific atolls).  Like you said Hitler "gave conflicting statements throughout his life," but he was far from alone in that.

The No True Scotsman fallacy is not the slightest bit persuasive. Besides, Hitler did not simply claim to be Catholic, he referenced belief in God and the Divine quote often (eg. "by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord” [Mein Kampf]). This is especially evident throughout Mein Kampf, and after he survived so many attacks on his life he came to believe he was divinely protected. You claimed Hitler was an atheist. I am asking you to prove it. Arguing a case is a little more useful (and difficult) than throwing out meaningless arrogant insults and "LOLs".

And yes, of course the phrase "Gott Mit Uns" dates far back, but Hitler wouldn't have put it on the Nazi Party's belt buckles if he were an atheist.

Sophus, you would benefit from a good, basic World Religions 101 class.

I've had more than just that. Thanks.

EDIT: For good measure, here's a list of some of Hitler's extremely atheistic quotes:

"The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement) was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

"I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it."

[Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, _The Voice of Destruction_, pp. 239-40]

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed."

[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on his personal Christian feelings. Published in "My New Order", quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

"Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.309]

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

"Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p. 171]

"I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 1]

"I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 2]

"...the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the scheming of political parties."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes!

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and well-planned."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"It [Christian Social Party] recognized the value of large-scale propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological instincts of the broad masses of its adherents."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3, about the leader of the Christian Social movement]

"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

"I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

"Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

"I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art which has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only the Christian- Social movement, especially in Lueger's time achieved a certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its success."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 6]

"Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 7, reflecting on World War I]

"The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be, the more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it continues to depend on human beings... If this were not so, the founders of religion could not be counted among the greatest men of this earth... In its workings, even the religion of love is only the weak reflection of the will of its exalted founder; its significance, however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

"To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

"The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution, against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles. The first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things is the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the 'image' of God."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

"Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the poisoning of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like a hothouse for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of fare served up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will hardly be able to deny that this is not the right kind of food, particularly for the youth...Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world and placed in the service of a moral, political, and cultural idea."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10, echoing the Cultural Warfare rhetoric of the Religious Right]

"But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

"While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in order to win new followers for their doctrine-- an activity which can boast but very modest success compared to the advance of the Mohammedan faith in particular-- right here in Europe they lose millions and millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all religious life or simply go their own ways. The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

"The great masses of people do not consist of philosophers; precisely for the masses, faith is often the sole foundation of a moral attitude. The various substitutes have not proved so successful from the standpoint of results that they could be regarded as a useful replacement for previous religious creeds. But if religious doctrine and faith are really to embrace the broad masses, the unconditional authority of the content of this faith is the foundation of all efficacy."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

"Due to his own original special nature, the Jew cannot possess a religious institution, if for no other reason because he lacks idealism in any form, and hence belief in a hereafter is absolutely foreign to him. And a religion in the Aryan sense cannot be imagined which lacks the conviction of survival after death in some form. Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter, but only for a practical and profitable life in this world."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11]

"The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11]

"....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11, precisely echoing Martin Luther's teachings]

"Faith is harder to shake than knowledge, love succumbs less to change than respect, hate is more enduring than aversion, and the impetus to the mightiest upheavals on this earth has at all times consisted less in a scientific knowledge dominating the masses than in a fanaticism which inspired them and sometimes in a hysteria which drove them forward."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

"The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

"All in all, this whole period of winter 1919-20 was a single struggle to strengthen confidence in the victorious might of the young movement and raise it to that fanaticism of faith which can move mountains."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

"Of course, even the general designation 'religious' includes various basic ideas or convictions, for example, the indestructibility of the soul, the eternity of its existence, the existence of a higher being, etc. But all these ideas, regardless of how convincing they may be for the individual, are submitted to the critical examination of this individual and hence to a fluctuating affirmation or negation until emotional divination or knowledge assumes the binding force of apodictic faith. This, above all, is the fighting factor which makes a breach and opens the way for the recognition of basic religious views."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

"A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?"

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"For the greatest revolutionary changes on this earth would not have been thinkable if their motive force, instead of fanatical, yes, hysterical passion, had been merely the bourgeois virtues of law and order."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture- race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 5]

"For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure? ...Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas... it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of a faith."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 5]

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 10]

"In the ranks of the movement [National Socialist movement], the most devout Protestant could sit beside the most devout Catholic, without coming into the slightest conflict with his religious convictions. The mighty common struggle which both carried on against the destroyer of Aryan humanity had, on the contrary, taught them mutually to respect and esteem one another."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 10]

"For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'

[Adolf Hitler's prayer, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 2 Chapter 13]

"The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life"

[Adolph Hitler, in a speech to the Reichstag on March 23, 1933]

"ATHEIST HALL CONVERTED

Berlin Churches Establish Bureau to Win Back Worshippers

Wireless to the New York Times.

BERLIN, May 13. - In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters. Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church membership.

The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had about 500,000 members ..."

[New York Times, May 14, 1933, page 2, on Hitler's outlawing of atheistic and freethinking groups in Germany in the Spring of 1933, after the Enabling Act authorizing Hitler to rule by decree]

"I go the way that Providence dictates with the assurance of a sleepwalker."

[Adolf Hitler, Speech, 15 March 1936, Munich, Germany.]

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life...."

[Adolf Hitler, Berlin, February 1, 1933]

"Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the *poison of immorality* which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of *liberal excess* during the past ... (few) years."

[The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]

[Achronos]

I really don't know, considering I have been the one atheist on the forum defending you, telling people to stop the name calling, to treat you in a civil manner. I've been taking your side and was impressed with much of what you said up until now, and I've been saying so. So your sarcasm doesn't fly with me. It's childish and uncalled for.

Sarcasm is exactly what that post cried out for. I do recall you calling out my credibility on just one statement I made, maybe you can see why I revereted to sarcasm.

So what? He murdered millions, and historians agree on many aspects of his life and thought processes. What's your point?

To show that your comment:

Your PhD apparently didn't cover Hitler.

Had no point.

Show me the desperate attempts by atheists. Then I'll show you what legitimate historians say,

What website?

what the people closest to Hitler said, and we'll see who's got the legitimate statement.

Our readers at least will.

Before we go there, take a look at his friend Mussolini's religious beliefs, or lack thereof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mussolini# ... us_beliefs

It's simple. Anyone who believes in a god is not an atheist. Or even better, one who believes in many gods, but not some, would be an atheist of some gods if it makes you feel better. For all your continued smart-assed, uncalled for remarks, you don't win by now trying to redefine atheism. A belief in the god of the bible, as Hitler had, disqualifies him as an atheist.

Hitler believed in the god of the bible? You mean Baal?  Because he certainly did not have Faith in the God of the Bible.

You are aware that the Christians were executed for atheism under the Romans, no?

Now, as Polycarp was entering into the stadium, there came to him a voice from heaven, saying, Be strong, and show yourself a man, O Polycarp! No one saw who it was that spoke to him; but those of our brethren who were present heard the voice. And as he was brought forward, the tumult became great when they heard that Polycarp was taken. And when he came near, the proconsul asked him whether he was Polycarp. On his confessing that he was, [the proconsul] sought to persuade him to deny [Christ], saying, Have respect to your old age, and other similar things, according to their custom, [such as], Swear by the fortune of Cæsar; repent, and say, Away with the Atheists. But Polycarp, gazing with a stern countenance on all the multitude of the wicked heathen then in the stadium, and waving his hand towards them, while with groans he looked up to heaven, said, Away with the Atheists. Then, the proconsul urging him, and saying, Swear, and I will set you at liberty, reproach Christ; Polycarp declared, Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me any injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and my Saviour?

And when the proconsul yet again pressed him, and said, Swear by the fortune of Cæsar, he answered,

Since you are vainly urgent that, as you say, I should swear by the fortune of Cæsar, and pretend not to know who and what I am, hear me declare with boldness, I am a Christian. And if you wish to learn what the doctrines of Christianity are, appoint me a day, and you shall hear them.

The proconsul replied, Persuade the people. But Polycarp said,

To you I have thought it right to offer an account [of my faith]; for we are taught to give all due honour (which entails no injury upon ourselves) to the powers and authorities which are ordained of God. Romans 13:1-7; Titus 3:1 But as for these, I do not deem them worthy of receiving any account from me.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0102.htm

By the way, under your broad definition many Buddhist (especially the Theravada) are atheists.

There's a lot you don't know about me. But the fact is that one needs no degree to repeat what is already widely known about Hitler. I don't need to be his personal doctor to be able to say that he was insane.

Interesting scientific method of medicine you practice there.

Ummm...I just said that. What's your point?

No, you said it failed because you diagnosed Hitler as insane.  You didn't examine his beliefs and the Vatican's at all.

You just lost a what credibility you had in my mind with this arrogant and inaccurate statement.

LOL. So I've lost credibility with the atheist. What will I do. :|

If I were you, I'd try to regain it. This atheist has the ability to kick your snarky ass right out of here. This atheist doesn't appreciate that you failed to appreciate the extra mile I went on your behalf, only for you to come off like a punk.

Why doesn't the atheist have the ability to actually keep a thread on track? How did a simple discussion of the afterlife turn into a classic example of Godwin's Law?

So I suggest an attitude change right quick. That fact is what you claimed is patently false and you should be ashamed to even trot it out and spout it like it's the truth when it has been discredited.

Only in your wet dreams of brilliance, but try not to lead into mental masturbation.

[Achronos]

-snip-

Just to put you out of your misery, let me just tell you what I was communicating; that Hitler's actions were so antithetical to Christianity that he could have possibly simply mouthed the right words for political expedience.

Translation: Adolph Hitler lied.

The No True Scotsman fallacy is not the slightest bit persuasive.

Since assessing truthful heresy is a fool's chase, I don't go into who is a true follower of the Vatican or not. The "cultural catholics" say they do not believe in God, and yet they claim to be "catholic." Those are their assertions, not mine.

Besides, Hitler did not simply claim to be Catholic, he referenced belief in God and the Divine quote often (eg. "by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord” [Mein Kampf]).

"Eternal nature is relentless in avenging transgressions of her laws. Hence, I believe I am acting in accordance with the wishes of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Sorry, "Eternal Nature" is not the Lord, God and Almighty Creator of the Bible." The god of Darwin is not I AM.

This is especially evident throughout Mein Kampf,

Quite the expert on Mein Kampf, are you. Maybe you would like to quote his comments on the "Catholic Church."

and after he survived so many attacks on his life he came to believe he was divinely protected.

The first assassination attempt came over a decade after Mein Kampf was published.

Thinking that one has a charmed life means you are divinely protected, you would think would be off limits to an atheist. Arguing with enough atheist Zionists (Herzl was one of the same) who believe God gave the Jews Palestine but don't believe in God, I know that the theory doesn't always cover the reality. Human beings are funny things.

You claimed Hitler was an atheist. I am asking you to prove it. Arguing a case is a little more useful (and difficult) than throwing out meaningless arrogant insults and "LOLs".

LOL. Well, you should know about arrogant insults without proof.

And yes, of course the phrase "Gott Mit Uns" dates far back, but Hitler wouldn't have put it on the Nazi Party's belt buckles if he were an atheist.

He didn't: the SS wore "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" ('My honour is loyalty'). I linked to that information, do I have to read it for you too? After all, Musslini through out pieties, although his widow testified that he was irreligious all his life except his last few years (when his fall may have taught him humility).

[Sophus]

]
Just to put you out of your misery, let me just tell you what I was communicating; that Hitler's actions were so antithetical to Christianity that he could have possibly simply mouthed the right words for political expedience.

Translation: Adolph Hitler lied.

That's a lovely assertion. But can you prove it?  There's a reason it's called the No True Scotsman Fallacy.
Here's a new outlandish assertion: Stalin lied about being an atheist. He was actually a Christian.
Apparently I can just make anything up about any mass murderer by claiming they lied. Or maybe it applies to anyone. How are your claims any more supported than by those who claim Barrack Obama is a muslim?

Since assessing truthful heresy is a fool's chase, I don't go into who is a true follower of the Vatican or not. The "cultural catholics" say they do not believe in God, and yet they claim to be "catholic." Those are their assertions, not mine.

And as I said, he did not simply claim to be a "cultural Catholic." He directly alludes to "the Lord" and being a "fighter" for his "Savior". No where does he claim to be some sort of Catholic atheist. He outlawed the German Freethinkers League.

Thinking that one has a charmed life means you are divinely protected, you would think would be off limits to an atheist. Arguing with enough atheist Zionists (Herzl was one of the same) who believe God gave the Jews Palestine but don't believe in God, I know that the theory doesn't always cover the reality. Human beings are funny things.

Again, you are really doing some gymnastics here. This is all hypothetical with zero proof.

LOL. Well, you should know about arrogant insults without proof.

That long list of quotes doesn't qualify as any sort of proof for you? Would you like more?

Why did Hitler demonize atheists and associate them with "the Communist enemy"?

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

"For eight months we have been waging a heroic battle against the Communist threat to our Volk, the decomposition of our culture, the subversion of our art, and the poisoning of our public morality. We have put an end to denial of God and abuse of religion. We owe Providence humble gratitude for not allowing us to lose our battle against the misery of unemployment and for the salvation of the German peasant."

That's interesting.... don't all atheists deny God?

He didn't: the SS wore "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" ('My honour is loyalty'). I linked to that information, do I have to read it for you too? After all, Musslini through out pieties, although his widow testified that he was irreligious all his life except his last few years (when his fall may have taught him humility).

I never claimed he wrote it. But as the leader of a political party and the nation he would not have had it on those belts if he were against it. It is a curious thing that an atheist would outlaw atheist groups but not get rid of a religious motto plastered on uniform.