The world today and Islam

[xSilverPhinx]

iSok, I'll give a better and fuller reply soon (having problems with my computer and can't get sound off videos I try to watch), but I'll say that after reading your post, putting aside some things I disagree with, it looks too utopian.

I don't know enough about Sharia and Islam to try and counter what they're about, but some of the infringements on human rights are a real problem. Whether they're part of the islamic system or not doesn't matter right now, they're being practiced by people calling themselves muslims and for the islamic cause. I guess it goes back to: why are moderate and liberal muslims allowing those to happen if they're against what they believe Islam is about?

[xSilverPhinx]

[iSok]

Thanks for your reply.

Your posts asks for an elaborate reply from my side
Currently quite busy with uni, hope to answer you soon.

[Stevil]

Another reason is that the secular system forces the equality of gender, don't get me wrong. I don't mean that women are less than men or are not allowed to work.
I'll give you an example:

Let's say that 10 women are looking for a job, and there's just one post.
No doubt that the employer will also take a good look on how the women looks. (Is this fair?)
If you keep doing this, then each time the women with the best combination of intelligence and looks will always get the job.

This is a huge assumption. There are some dodgy sex craved male bosses out there but they are by far the minority. To have a successful buisiness and to look good as a boss you need to employ people that will make your job easy and successful. The emphasis on running a successful business is to hire the right people rather than who visually looks pleasant.

Now, if you do it again, but this time the women will wear a scarf. ...
Islam recognizes for example how hard it is to be a women in this world and it protects her from being exploited by men.

Religion is not the problem but men are the problem.

It seems to me that Islam only sees woman as sex objects and men as uncontrolable hormone driven animals.
If the problem is the men then don't resolve it by forcing the women to cover their faces. The face is the most important social feature of a person, the face is how we recognise a person, the facial expressions are how we communicate a large percentage of our message. Forcing women to hide their faces essentially dehumanises them, they become a bed sheet rather than a person.
In non Mulsim cultures women thrive as equals, in society and in the workplace regardless of how pretty they are.

The largest entertainment industry in the west, is the porn industry. I do not have other words for it than; exploiting the women's body.

If a woman or man wants to make quick and easy money from making porn, then so be it. There is no exploitation going on. It is their choice and they are getting wealthy doing it. There is nothing to be ashamed of about the naked body. It should not be villified or detested.

If we take a good look at ads. The women's body is used for everything, it's just exploiting.
Take a look at this Dutch website: http://www.suitsupply.nl/#/collection/
What exactly do suits have to do with naked women? I cannot understand the link.
Multiple pictures of men with suits surrounded by naked women...what is the link?

There is no denying it, sex sells. The girls in the ad get paid and the product gets sold. I fail to see the problem.

And because of this nonsense, girls of the age of 13 or 14 stick their fingers in their troat or do not eat at all just to be like those women.

I blame gossip magazines for this in part. They do closeups of famous people and highlight the flaws and degrade the person by talking trash about them.
It would be great if we encouraged images of more wholesome women in ads, porn etc.

According to survey in Great-Brittain, 19% of the women BEFORE the age of 25 try to commit suicide. 19%, that is like 1 in 5 girls.
My sister is studying medecine and she told me that 25% of the population here in the Netherlands is swallowing Prozac (anti-depression).
So something is very very wrong.....
I would recommend you to read the book of the feministe: Germaine Greer, The Whole Woman

In most societies, male teenagers rank the highest with regards to suicides.

Men have an obligation to financially sustain their family, so men are forced to use their inheritance for sustaining their family.
Women on the other hand are not, and they are free to use their inheritance for whatever options (jewels, clothes.....etc), men are not allowed to take that.

In my culture there is no obligation. It is up to the family unit to decide how best to operate, who is the bread winner, how the finances are allocated. We must not forget that not all people get married and not all families consist of a Man and Woman. We do not shame people into marriage.

[xSilverPhinx]

Thanks for your reply.

Your posts asks for an elaborate reply from my side

[iSok]

Western society started going secular as an alternative to religious influence, especially under the Catholic church which like anything led by fallible humans can easily be corrupted and lust for power that is beyond theirs to begin with. I think the protestant reformation is what planted the seed of what would eventually evolve into secularism. It was a solution to what remained of the Holy Roman Empire ("Roman" reads "Catholic). Catholicism does have an official "authority", the papacy, and they do gather under that one banner. I would like to live under such a system just as much as I would like to live under Islam.

Sure secularism does have problems, but it's a work in progress. I find some of their ideals to be nice and worthy of pursuit, such as freedom from religion and freedom of religion. But just saying that looks Utopian. Enforcing it is another matter...

Well, we never had this problem. We muslims did not abandon the Calipathe because of supression. It never supressed us. Things took a wrong twist after the crusades, imperialism by the west played also a huge
roll on why the Muslim world today is as it is. Every Muslim on earth longs for a Calipathe. Because it would unite the Muslims.
There's no proper Sunni Islam state anywhere in the world to be found. Only the extreme Saudi's with Wahabi Islam (who do not allow women to drive for strange reasons..).
Islam is Islam in my opinion, but some people take a very different interpretation.

In case you are interested --> A debate on the future of Islam. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfO8Dcv1qHY

Evolving with society is an excellent thing, but western society is currently more evolved than Islamic societies. I don't base that fact on secularism or Islam, which can very well be just as evolved or more, but on societies themselves (if you're able to separate "society" from "Islamic system"). If the Islamic society's golden age was possible back then, it could happen again in some form. In fact, the western world benefited immensely from that time, the Renaissance maybe  wouldn't have happened as it did if it weren't for the crusades to the libraries of Islamic knowledge houses.  

Yes it could happen again and I hope it will happen again.
The Muslim world today is undeniably backward and uneducated. But the problems here lies not within Islam but because of the abandonment of Islam.
The Sharia is not applied in any country in it's purest form. Always grabbing the things you like and leaving the rest...if you work that way, the system will not work.

And yet non Muslims are not allowed into Mecca. All the "us versus them" mentality that some scapegoat onto people of other races some Muslims do to people of other creeds or non creeds.

It's true that the Qur'an forbids pagans to go into Mecca. Back then this happened after years of warfare, so when the majority established Islam, the pagans were no longer allowed to come because they
might hijack it once again. Today this is also the case, the Saudi government has used this verse to forbid anyone to coming to Mecca.
For a very good reason: Tourism. It's the largest gathering of humans in the world, no doubt that many people would come just to observe the people.

This will turn the place into tourism, the question is: To what boundary is it forbidden?
The Saudi's decided to forbid it in totally, so no misunderstanding will occur. I agree very well that.
There are many Christian, Hinduism, Judaism holy sites, where people of other faith's are not allowed.
If you are a Muslim, coming there for God, you can come (no matter your colour or race). But don't come for tourism or just sight-spotting.

I hope you see why I as an atheist have a huge problem with this.

You could reconsider your point that we need God, because we can't achieve this on our own.
 

No, not really. Men also are subject to influencing professional decisions based on looks, colour, sexual orientation, and other things. Why don't they also were burkas?  

In minor cases they are. There is no male porn industry, 99% of the adds on television is about women. Women are by far more supressed in this topic.
Very few men get raped....

 

The link is to cause men to think that if they wear those suits, they too will be surrounded by naked women. Now what you think that says is up to your own interpretation.  

I understood the link.
But then I can sell toothpaste, shoes, office chair or a calculator.
Because naked women would surround you and would like your white teeth, shoes, office chair (they could sit on your lap) or your intelligence.
I find it just insane how many ways there are to exploit women....

I don't doubt that Islam is not represented by the extremists and even not by scripture to some extent. If you take a glance at the old testament, it looks to be really barbaric: stoning, gross intolerance, animal sacrifice among other things. The Jews don't follow those anymore.

There's a difference between the Jews and the Muslims.
We believe the Qur'an is the word of God. So we follow each rule. The problems today that occurs in Islamic societies is because they have stopped following everything.
They just follow the parts, which they find appealing.

Is the Islamic economic Law actually practiced successfully? What does it mean not to be greedy?

There isn't any country that is practising in it's pure form.
However, Singapore is rising when it comes to this system.
In Asia the system is growing rapidly, about 35% a year. During the financial crisis they were growing, the crisis did not touch them.

Greediness means the soup bubble of interest.
Based on assumption and interest and eventually the bubble collapses, financial crisis.
Because of greediness.

[xSilverPhinx]

I not really sure about

...a Calipathe. Because it would unite the Muslims.

but speculation on that is pointless. Realistically, there are inevitable power struggles between ideologic systems and even within them.

The Sharia is not applied in any country in it's purest form. Always grabbing the things you like and leaving the rest...if you work that way, the system will not work.

When you say that, do you mean that it can't work if it respects a countries diversity (as you said in an earlier post) in regards to culture and societal evolution stage?

For a very good reason: Tourism. It's the largest gathering of humans in the world, no doubt that many people would come just to observe the people.

This will turn the place into tourism, the question is: To what boundary is it forbidden?
The Saudi's decided to forbid it in totally, so no misunderstanding will occur. I agree very well that.
There are many Christian, Hinduism, Judaism holy sites, where people of other faith's are not allowed.
If you are a Muslim, coming there for God, you can come (no matter your colour or race). But don't come for tourism or just sight-spotting.

Makes perfect sense.

You could reconsider your point that we need God, because we can't achieve this on our own.

What do you mean by 'god' here?