Why aren't there athiest churches?

[ghoul31]

I went to a very modern chuch today. It was the first church I ever liked. They had a rock band, movie theatre seats, free pop machines, and giant video screens with videos. There wasn't any kneeling or rituals or any of that nonsense.  The sermon was basically tips on how to live a better life. The people were all very friendly. This seems like something I would like to be apart of.

But in the end, they still want you to worship some imaginary being, and devote your life to this imaginary being. So I don't think I can keep going to this church.

Why don't they have athiest churches, where you can learn how to live a good life, meet people, and do charity work and such.  But where you don't have to worship imaginary beings?

[Whitney]

A few groups have tried to create Atheist churches with some success.  You'll find them if you google "atheist church"

The group I belong to, fellowship of freethought, though not specifically a church is intended to provide the community and charity many enjoyed when attending religious church.

[Will]

I'm all set with schools, libraries, and coffee shops, but I wouldn't be against the idea of an atheist community center. It's fun to make friends with like-minded people.

[Achronos]

If there was to be an atheist church wouldn't there have to be a set doctrine? I guess it depends on what you mean by a 'church'.

[Whitney]

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/index.php/about/

http://factschurch.com/ (founded by Michael Newdow)

http://www.churchoffreethought.org/


"Church":

Church Defined - IRS Church DefinitionChurch Defined - IRS Church Definition

Because of First Amendment religious freedom concerns, Congress has never passed any statute anywhere which defines what a church is (beyond saying "a church or convention or association of churches", which is like saying that the definition of a duck is "one or more ducks"). The IRS, which apparently is unconstrained by the First Amendment, has nonetheless ventured where angels fear to tread, and has established criteria which, in its view, define a church as follows:

  1.     A distinct legal existence
  2.     A recognized creed and form of worship
  3.     A definite and distinct ecclesiastical government
  4.     A formal code of doctrine and discipline
  5.     A distinct religious history
  6.     A membership not associated with any other church or denomination
  7.     An organization of ordained ministers
  8.     Ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed studies
  9.     A literature of its own
10.     Established places of worship
11.     Regular congregations
12.     Regular religious services
13.     Sunday schools for religious instruction of the young
14.     Schools for the preparation of its ministers.

The Tax Court, which is apparently unconstrained by the IRS administrative criteria, has adopted its own view, consisting of most of the same criteria compacted into 7 or 8 points. See, e.g., Pusch v. Commissioner, 39 T.C.M. 838 (1980) or Chapman v. Commissioner 48 T.C. 358 (1967). In any event, not all of the 14 criteria must be met by every individual church, since only a substantial denomination will meet all of the criteria, and the IRS must allow for the existence of independent churches. Thus, there is substantial "wiggle room."

http://www.t-tlaw.com/cf-14.htm

[Achronos]

Interesting on 7 and 8; hurray for religious freedom!

[Whitney]

Interesting on 7 and 8; hurray for religious freedom!

Pretty much US law allows anyone to say they are a church.  What states will accept varies; but if an atheist church was approved in texas (after a battle) then it can be approved anywhere (though I'm not personally a fan of using the church status approach for atheist groups...the word scares too many people away due to emotional baggage).

With church status comes the ability to be recognized as tax exempt without having to bother with jumping through hoops (and spending money on) applying for 501c3 status (federal non-profit).  Churches do not have to report the details of their expenses every year and therefore have virtually no accountability to whether they are spending their money in a manner befitting of a non-profit.  I think we should do away with allowing churches to automatically get non-profit status and make them go through the same motions of non-church charity organizations in order to receive the status.

(yes, derail but really what we allow churches to do is ridiculous)

[LegendarySandwich]

They had a rock band, movie theatre seats, free pop machines, and giant video screens with videos.

Combine that and atheism, and you have a "church" I'd want to go to.

EDIT: Sweet! I'm now a legally ordained minister at The First Church of Atheism.

[Tank]

If there was to be an atheist church wouldn't there have to be a set doctrine? I guess it depends on what you mean by a 'church'.

Atheist doctrine: Do no harm.

There you go, that wasn't too difficult was it.

[borealis]

I would definitely go to church like that. But not on sunday mornings. Could the service be on friday evenings?

[Inevitable Droid]

EDIT: Sweet! I'm now a legally ordained minister at The First Church of Atheism.

I'm running an experiment to see if any atheists would want to be ordained by an atheist church that requires commitment to some broad principles, standards of behavior, and respect toward a particular branch of science, with said ordination implying a real intent to officiate at weddings.  So far no one has taken me up on it, but I'll be running the experiment for a year before I shut it down.  Anyone curious can click the link in my sig.

I've done a bit of research, incidentally, and it really seems to be true that so long as 501(c)3 status isn't pursued, the federal government has no opinion on what constitutes a church, and the state of New Jersey, at least, has no opinion either.  One's own state, province, or commonwealth would have to be researched separately, of course.  Plus anyone seeking to officiate at weddings should, in my opinion, meet with the County Clerk in advance of the first officiation, to make absolutely sure the County Clerk sees no objections, and to receive guidance on proper procedure.

In other news, I've elsewhere floated the notion of an online Atheist Ethical Community - http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6146 - but enthusiasm hasn't materialized.

Freethought communities look sound to me.  I'm too lazy about driving to get involved with the one nearest me, but if there were one right down the road, I'd probably check it out.

[Gawen]

There's a "church" near me where the non religious sing non religious hymns, sit in pews and hold non religious "sermons". Much too "church-like" for me. It almost seems like a cheap ripoff...a contradiction of sorts. It's this church-like setting that makes me not want to go.
I'd be happy with monikers such as association, community, alliance, group, league, guild, network, even club.

[elliebean]

I'd be happy with monikers such as association, community, alliance, group, league, guild, network, even club.

Fellowship?

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm uninterested in churchy stuff, or being told what to think, which is what groups too often do.  Thanks but no thanks.

[Gawen]

I'd be happy with monikers such as association, community, alliance, group, league, guild, network, even club.

Fellowship?

ACK!!!...I forgot one. Thanks Ellie!