Save the lion?!!

[Fininho]

It's the way things are.
Progress was to bring electricity to Africa across vast lands.
Thousands of kilometres of railway tracks.
Roads to transport all that stuff, etc.
Lions would appear and attack men.
Lions lost in great numbers.
The ecologists an environmentalists predict that lions will go extinct within 30 years in Kenya. Maybe less.
And then what?
Then rhinos will go; they are very much an endangered species.
And when populations are all fighting wars for resources, especially water, humans will also go in vast numbers.
What can we do?

[The Magic Pudding]

What can we do?

Well if priests start saying birth control is the devils work, you could give them to the lions.

Your animals are large scale.
I'd suggest a fence, but it would have to be heavy duty.
We have a dingo fence, but then a dingo is not an elephant.

It is one of the longest structures in the world and is the world's longest fence. It stretches 5,614 km (3,488 mi)[1] from Jimbour on the Darling Downs near Dalby through thousands of kilometres of arid land ending west of Eyre peninsula on cliffs of the Nullarbor Plain[2]

[Fininho]

Lions don't have the slightest chance to make it to the next century.
Population explosion in Africa, plus FAMINE, poverty, and many other plagues will change Africa's landscape for the worse.
You can bet on that.
Collect your pictures of those wild beasts now.
Keep them religiously for your grandchildren.
"Grandpa, what was a lion?"
"A wild beast that lived in Africa a long time ago and ate humans!"
"Oh!..."

[karadan]

There is a big difference between a lion and, say, an elephant or a rhino.
Lions kill and eat people in Kenya.
People get together with guns and go after the lions to kill them in revenge.
That's why most lions across Africa were decimated for several centuries.
By now, it is too late to save the lion in Africa.
Only enclosed lions - in national parks - will have a reasonable chance of survival.
You can be sentimental about lions, but it will not help.
I know the argument that it was man who invaded the lion's territory.
That is true, but it brought progress and civilisation to Africa and other continents.
Can you argue against this premise?
I don't think so.

You are essentially advocating the decimation of a higher mammalian species because 'people are better'... You're the technocrat Thump was talking about earlier although you are dressing it up slightly differently. You apparently have a disdain for the natural world because it doesn't fit in with your idea of progress and civilization. That's just sad.

The only people who annoy me more than fundamentalist religious people are the sorts who feel we can do whatever we want to the environment, guilt free because there will be no consequences. That short-sighted, backwards and asinine outlook simply astounds me.

Your point about bringing progress and civilization to Africa is a massive misnomer as well. Probably for another thread though.

[The Magic Pudding]

The only people who annoy me more than fundamentalist religious people are the sorts who feel we can do whatever we want to the environment, guilt free because there will be no consequences. That short-sighted, backwards and asinine outlook simply astounds me.

I don't know if Fininho is actually welcoming the passing of the lion, or is just resigned to it.
But there has to be some money in maintaining large parks for tourism, if Africa doesn't do it someone else will.

[karadan]

The only people who annoy me more than fundamentalist religious people are the sorts who feel we can do whatever we want to the environment, guilt free because there will be no consequences. That short-sighted, backwards and asinine outlook simply astounds me.

I don't know if Fininho is actually welcoming the passing of the lion, or is just resigned to it.
But there has to be some money in maintaining large parks for tourism, if Africa doesn't do it someone else will.

They're already doing it in plenty of places. The UK wildlife trust recently bought about 250 acres of rainforest in Borneo and have started up an eco-tourism base which they are training the local people to run and manage. They make money from tourists looking at Orang-utans and in doing so, help save and nurture an incredible species of ape. It is way better than logging, and is also sustainable.

[Fininho]

I don't care whether the lion goes extinct or not.
It looks like it is a lost cause, but sentimental ecologists are also hypocrites.
They want to protect the wild for their own gain.
It is not for philanthropic reasons: it is COMMERCE with tourists' sentimentality; nothing else.
Species go extinct every day across nature, and that's that.
Lions are just nice for pictures!
Would you not love to see a pride of lions attack a buffalo or an elephant or a wildebeest and take pictures while they eat them alive?...
"Wow, Simon! Where did you take those fabulous pictures, man!"
"An expensive safari in South Africa. Then we went visit Mother Theresa's hospital in Calcutta."
"Wow!"

[The Magic Pudding]

I don't care whether the lion goes extinct or not.
It looks like it is a lost cause, but sentimental ecologists are also hypocrites.
They want to protect the wild for their own gain.
It is not for philanthropic reasons: it is COMMERCE with tourists' sentimentality; nothing else.

That's crap, did Dian Fossey die trying to make a buck? that's is just a little cynical.
No one pays me to put up a nesting box in the back yard.
People care about about animal survival, making them a valuable tourist resource is an important means of doing that.
If an opportunistic landowner does the same, well good luck to them.

Lions are just nice for pictures!
Would you not love to see a pride of lions attack a buffalo or an elephant or a wildebeest and take pictures while they eat them alive?...
"Wow, Simon! Where did you take those fabulous pictures, man!"
"An expensive safari in South Africa. Then we went visit Mother Theresa's hospital in Calcutta."
"Wow!"

I can't say lions are my favourite animal, I wouldn't mind a picture of an elephant just being an elephant.
The ideal is to conserve eco systems, this includes small insects and large carnivores.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don't know that I know that, but I don't think rational arguments should be abandoned.
Emotions are used as a powerful motivator for good or ill, if a koala is shown looking confused next to a felled tree it moves people.
It doesn't matter that koalas always look dopey and confused.

I wasn't advocating abandoning rational arguments; indeed, I advanced a couple myself.  I was pointing out the poor odds any argument must face, be it rational or an appeal to emotion, when it confronts the ultima ratio avarus

Pictures like this and passionate argument saved the Franklin River from being drowned.
Reason was used, ancient cave paintings and tourism, but I think people with enough to eat can choose to save such a place just for its beauty.  Hungry people may want more though.

Very true.  However, many species endangerments, particularly in Africa, aren't fueled by hunger, but by avarice.

[Fininho]

I don't want to disagree outright, Pudding.
The crude facts are that Kenyans invaded the lions' territory to plant crops.
Lions reacted by eating some of them.
Result: lions lost.
It is an irreversible situation.
I've been very near to lions [in the Kruger Park], and they look awesome, but in a fight with humans they lose.
They have always lost.
They will be gone one day.
It is irreversible fact.
Do you really care about that?

[karadan]

Do you really care about that?

Yes i care about that an enormous amount.

[Whitney]

They have always lost.

I'm pretty sure we were on the lion's regular menu (or at least the lion ancestor's) well before we were smart enough to make guns.

I think lions are beautiful creatures and it would be a shame for them to no longer be around for future generations to see; as with all creatures we should do our best not to drive them into extinction if we can find ways of cohabiting on the same planet.  Humans often act in a manner that makes us like a planet-wide virus that is run out of control....out of control viruses eventually kill all of their hosts and then die themselves.

[Ultima22689]

All this doom and gloom is annoying. There is no species quite like the human race. We manipulate our environment to benefit us and by doing so can reach qualities of life that  are on a whole new level in comparison with other life forms. Whitney, your brought up the point that before we employed technology, bows and arrows, spears, etc that Lions would eat us for dinner, absolutely. So what did we do? We evolved to being using tools, the situation was reversed and we thrived because of this evolutionary path.  Biology has never met the sort of issues that humanity has to deal with but I think the process of evolution is still guiding everything we do, our technology is after all a result of evolution.  We're learning already that a flagrant disregard for the rest of the planet via sucking up all the resources, destroying thousands of species and whatever else you can think of will not bode well for humanity. It's why we seek new sources of energy to power our way of life. Whether that's abandoning fossil fuels or working on nuclear fusion( they're making headway now, yay!) I think it's simply an instinctual response and evolution working to keep the human machine going.  Humans have the remarkable ability to over ride their instincts to a degree and this is usually good however it works against us at times too, like an intense greed which results in this disregard for the environment or those who simply just hate the world and don't give a damn. These people tend to be called sociopaths which is something that doesn't thrive well in society and tends not to pass on to the next generation or is diminished each time.

[Fininho]

Agree.
As for the lions in Kenya or in the whole of Africa, their days are numbered, regardless of the efforts of preservation, and all the rest.
Now, don't tell me to go cry in a corner for so little.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Agree.
As for the lions in Kenya or in the whole of Africa, their days are numbered, regardless of the efforts of preservation, and all the rest.
Now, don't tell me to go cry in a corner for so little.

I regard anyone who views irreplaceable, unique species in such a blasé manner with more than a bit of pity.  I don't expect you to go "cry in a corner".  That would require caring.