The terrifying thought of no afterlife

[Achronos]

Also Croaker I have a question for you which you may choose to answer honestly if you like. How do you feel about the nihilistic world-view? That is, there is no ultimate purpose for living, given that the universe will just end up suffering an eventual heat death and everything you did or ever will do does not matter in the grand scheme of things? I was once like you, a strident atheist, but I eventually realized that this world-view of atheistic nihilism was utterly unnacceptable to me, and rendered all life ultimately meaningless and without purpose.

I kind of chuckled at LegendarySandwich's response again, you want to take Him for granted like an adulterer, and then complain when He leaves you.

[SomewhereInND]

What does someones 'world view' ( a made  up term by man ) have to do with reality?

Why would anyones 'view' fit into a man made catagory?

Do our views have any impact on the universe?

From my view, when I die, the universe ends, so I try to enjoy it, while it is still here.

[bandit4god]

Let's make this practical.  A quote from another topic:

It seems to me that at least at the time of dying, on average, atheists and agnostics seem calmer and better able to face the end than religious people, because at that point those who have been believers all their lives must face the reality that an afterlife, when you finally get down to it, looks a little unlikely - and even if it exists, did you make the cut?  Magic is more believable if you don't think about it too much, and as you approach the end of life, you have to think about it.  Atheists, having dealt with the truth for a while - that this life is all we have - are better equipped to let go with dignity and calm.

I found this post particularly compelling, and so reflected on my two years in combat in Iraq and how folks at differing ends of the atheist-theist spectrum dealt with the prospect of death.

Results were mixed, but patterns were nonetheless clear.  Before a particularly harrowing mission, atheists would be what I can only roughly describe as "grim".  Some took on a grisly sense of humor about it, others were quiet and sullen, and still others immersed themselves in the technical details of the mission and were all business.  The theist, remarkably, demonstrated surprisingly less self-orientation than the atheist.  Going from person to person, they tried to cheer up their fellow soldier and engender some sense of hope and purpose.  The chaplains were the most fun of these to watch--with no proselytizing agenda whatsoever, they just went around to groups of soldiers offering an upbeat joke or a word of encouragement.

[McQ]

Let's make this practical.  A quote from another topic:

It seems to me that at least at the time of dying, on average, atheists and agnostics seem calmer and better able to face the end than religious people, because at that point those who have been believers all their lives must face the reality that an afterlife, when you finally get down to it, looks a little unlikely - and even if it exists, did you make the cut?  Magic is more believable if you don't think about it too much, and as you approach the end of life, you have to think about it.  Atheists, having dealt with the truth for a while - that this life is all we have - are better equipped to let go with dignity and calm.

I found this post particularly compelling, and so reflected on my two years in combat in Iraq and how folks at differing ends of the atheist-theist spectrum dealt with the prospect of death.

Results were mixed, but patterns were nonetheless clear.  Before a particularly harrowing mission, atheists would be what I can only roughly describe as "grim".  Some took on a grisly sense of humor about it, others were quiet and sullen, and still others immersed themselves in the technical details of the mission and were all business.  The theist, remarkably, demonstrated surprisingly less self-orientation than the atheist.  Going from person to person, they tried to cheer up their fellow soldier and engender some sense of hope and purpose.  The chaplains were the most fun of these to watch--with no proselytizing agenda whatsoever, they just went around to groups of soldiers offering an upbeat joke or a word of encouragement.

Have to point out that this is strictly Argument from anecdote. Unless you knew every atheist and every christian and did a blinded study of them, using proper psychological scientific methodology, and without the considerable observer bias you bring to the observation itself, this tells us nothing more than your own "feelings" toward this. And those are no more worthwhile than mine, Wilson's, or anyone else's feelings on the subject.

So while this is a nice exercise in telling a story, it has no weight. I'll also put my money on the soldier immersing himself in the technical details of the mission any day, since I was one of them. And that was back in the days when I was a born-again christian.

[LegendarySandwich]

Also Croaker I have a question for you which you may choose to answer honestly if you like. How do you feel about the nihilistic world-view? That is, there is no ultimate purpose for living, given that the universe will just end up suffering an eventual heat death and everything you did or ever will do does not matter in the grand scheme of things? I was once like you, a strident atheist, but I eventually realized that this world-view of atheistic nihilism was utterly unnacceptable to me, and rendered all life ultimately meaningless and without purpose.

I kind of chuckled at LegendarySandwich's response again, you want to take Him for granted like an adulterer, and then complain when He leaves you.

I don't think your analogy quite fits, but thanks for trying.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Let's make this practical.  A quote from another topic:

It seems to me that at least at the time of dying, on average, atheists and agnostics seem calmer and better able to face the end than religious people, because at that point those who have been believers all their lives must face the reality that an afterlife, when you finally get down to it, looks a little unlikely - and even if it exists, did you make the cut?  Magic is more believable if you don't think about it too much, and as you approach the end of life, you have to think about it.  Atheists, having dealt with the truth for a while - that this life is all we have - are better equipped to let go with dignity and calm.

I found this post particularly compelling, and so reflected on my two years in combat in Iraq and how folks at differing ends of the atheist-theist spectrum dealt with the prospect of death.

Results were mixed, but patterns were nonetheless clear.  Before a particularly harrowing mission, atheists would be what I can only roughly describe as "grim".  Some took on a grisly sense of humor about it, others were quiet and sullen, and still others immersed themselves in the technical details of the mission and were all business.  The theist, remarkably, demonstrated surprisingly less self-orientation than the atheist.  Going from person to person, they tried to cheer up their fellow soldier and engender some sense of hope and purpose.  The chaplains were the most fun of these to watch--with no proselytizing agenda whatsoever, they just went around to groups of soldiers offering an upbeat joke or a word of encouragement.

Have to point out that this is strictly Argument from anecdote. Unless you knew every atheist and every christian and did a blinded study of them, using proper psychological scientific methodology, and without the considerable observer bias you bring to the observation itself, this tells us nothing more than your own "feelings" toward this. And those are no more worthwhile than mine, Wilson's, or anyone else's feelings on the subject.

So while this is a nice exercise in telling a story, it has no weight. I'll also put my money on the soldier immersing himself in the technical details of the mission any day, since I was one of them. And that was back in the days when I was a born-again christian.

I was not a combat soldier, but I was an Air Force firefighter, and have seen hell break loose a time or two.  I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't be bothered worrying about whether or not Hicks was a Christian when we had a burner near the ready JP-4 storage and an uploaded F-16 on the other side of the apron.  

For that reason, this story doesn't ring true to me.

[Stevil]

How on earth does one "progress" in the belief that there is no God?

There is no progression in atheism, as it leads to nowhere but nihilism.

Are you saying that belief in a God or Gods helps to give you purpose and a reason for your existence. If this were the case I can understand some Christians struggle with understanding an Atheist or Agnostic view to life and death.

My answer, although of course I can only speak for myself, is that the no God/s viewpoint is liberating, builds independence and helps toward a higher level of free will. In this way it can be extremely fulfilling and rewarding. The progression is the journey of life and trying to make sense of it, finding out what is important and being able to live a fulfilling life.

[Thumpalumpacus]

... but I eventually realized that this world-view of atheistic nihilism was utterly unnacceptable to me, and rendered all life ultimately meaningless and without purpose.

You have yet to arrive at the understanding that meaning and purpose are self-defined, I see.

Now, now, before you go crying that service to your god gives you meaning and purpose, ponder this: you chose to do those things.  You assigned your own meaning, and purpose.

The only difference 'twixt thee and me is that your choice is self-abnegating, while mine is self-affirming.

[Achronos]

You have yet to arrive at the understanding that meaning and purpose are self-defined, I see.

Now, now, before you go crying that service to your god gives you meaning and purpose, ponder this: you chose to do those things.  You assigned your own meaning, and purpose.

The only difference 'twixt thee and me is that your choice is self-abnegating, while mine is self-[strike:2qwfd99n]affirming[/strike:2qwfd99n] deluding.

Fixed that for you.

You assume that I have not pondered such things. Few things, of course, are further from the Truth. Indeed, that is why I chose to do them. Take for instance the Creed. The Fathers teach that you cannot say "I believe" (where English gets the term "Credo") until you make it your own.

Of course, one can reject the Creed or just give it lip service, but that changes you, not the Creed. One can choose to obey the Law of Gravity, assign your own meaning and purpose to it. Or you can be self-affirming and jump off the nearest cliff. How's that for self-abnegation?

[Achronos]

One thing it took me a long time, and at least two forays into full-blown atheism, to realize is that believers are actually MORE intellectually free than nonbelievers.

Why? Because believers can, and do, freely express their doubts about whether or not God exists, and can expect to receive sympathy and understanding from most other believers, because most of us know that we can't be 100% sure of anything regarding God. Unless we're arrogant and prideful, we know that we don't know everything, and that we could be wrong.

But what happens to an atheist who suddenly starts doubting his atheism? Well, I can tell you from personal experience - he either keeps it to himself, or gets trashed for being "weak", "emitional", "stupid", etc., by his fellow nonbelievers. Doubt is FORBIDDEN - we KNOW there are no deities and anyone who thinks otherwise is just an idiot.

Give me the "shackles" of belief any day.

[Thumpalumpacus]

You have yet to arrive at the understanding that meaning and purpose are self-defined, I see.

Now, now, before you go crying that service to your god gives you meaning and purpose, ponder this: you chose to do those things.  You assigned your own meaning, and purpose.

The only difference 'twixt thee and me is that your choice is self-abnegating, while mine is self-[strike:27oloa6n]affirming[/strike:27oloa6n] deluding.

Fixed that for you.

Wasn't broken, thanks.  I wish you could have my life.  You'd be happy with yourself.

You assume that I have not pondered such things.

No, I can tell that you've given this much thought.  I simply disagree with your results, likely because we input different starting values.

Few things, of course, are further from the Truth. Indeed, that is why I chose to do them. Take for instance the Creed. The Fathers teach that you cannot say "I believe" (where English gets the term "Credo") until you make it your own.[

Of course, one can reject the Creed or just give it lip service, but that changes you, not the Creed. One can choose to obey the Law of Gravity, assign your own meaning and purpose to it. Or you can be self-affirming and jump off the nearest cliff. How's that for self-abnegation?

Analogy fail.  Gravity brooks no disobedience, nor does it demand obeisance,  nor does it forgive even if you repent your disbelief right before you hit the ground.

You may've thought much about your faith, but you've obviously not thought about gravity that much.

I stand by what I said:  Christianity is a self-abnegating cult of death.

[Stevil]

But what happens to an atheist who suddenly starts doubting his atheism? Well, I can tell you from personal experience - he either keeps it to himself, or gets trashed for being "weak", "emitional", "stupid", etc., by his fellow nonbelievers. Doubt is FORBIDDEN - we KNOW there are no deities and anyone who thinks otherwise is just an idiot.

In my experience, in the real world people don't talk about religious beliefs. Most people I meet, workmates etc don't let on what their beliefs are, and to me it is quite irrelevant, peoples beliefs are there own personal business. Theists are more likely to talk about religion at church meet-ups etc, but generally people don't discuss this stuff. Atheists don't have atheist church, hence don't generally have a support group with regards to religious belief. But in saying that, I am new to this forum and this forum is the only religious based forum I have visited and I do see some strong elements of some people thinking they are more intelligent than the "stupid" theists. So I kind of agree with you in that aspect.

[Sophus]

I'm sorry Achronos, but I've gotten really bored of the atheist makes you a miserable nihilist claim. Trying to caricature us all on Nietzsche's epistemology isn't even an argument anymore, it just shows a huge misunderstanding.

But what happens to an atheist who suddenly starts doubting his atheism?

What happens when you start doubting that Zeus doesn't exist?

Ew, that sentence doesn't flow right. You're lucky there's a word - atheism - for a lack of belief. It allows for something to be phrased coherently in the English language that doesn't flow smoothly at all in rational thought.

Doubt is FORBIDDEN - we KNOW there are no deities and anyone who thinks otherwise is just an idiot.

Actually no. Richard Dawkins made a scale to rank how "sure" one is of their theism or atheism. He himself was only a six, meaning he doesn't claim to know. There was a poll of this on his old forum. Someone on this forum (sorry, speak up whoever you are, this man's memory isn't much use) posted a snapshot of those results. Overwhelmingly most atheists said 6.

Doubt is never forbidden among skeptics, it's simply a question of whether or not it's reasonable doubt. Doubt loses its virtue when it becomes erratic and irrational.

Why is it bad in Christianity to be a Doubting Thomas? But yet "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." Jesus doesn't want you to doubt. He doesn't want you to be intellectually free.

[Inevitable Droid]

One thing it took me a long time, and at least two forays into full-blown atheism, to realize is that believers are actually MORE intellectually free than nonbelievers.

What drove you into your two forays?

[Chandler M Bing]

Let's make this practical.  A quote from another topic:

It seems to me that at least at the time of dying, on average, atheists and agnostics seem calmer and better able to face the end than religious people, because at that point those who have been believers all their lives must face the reality that an afterlife, when you finally get down to it, looks a little unlikely - and even if it exists, did you make the cut?  Magic is more believable if you don't think about it too much, and as you approach the end of life, you have to think about it.  Atheists, having dealt with the truth for a while - that this life is all we have - are better equipped to let go with dignity and calm.

I found this post particularly compelling, and so reflected on my two years in combat in Iraq and how folks at differing ends of the atheist-theist spectrum dealt with the prospect of death.

Results were mixed, but patterns were nonetheless clear.  Before a particularly harrowing mission, atheists would be what I can only roughly describe as "grim".  Some took on a grisly sense of humor about it, others were quiet and sullen, and still others immersed themselves in the technical details of the mission and were all business.  The theist, remarkably, demonstrated surprisingly less self-orientation than the atheist.  Going from person to person, they tried to cheer up their fellow soldier and engender some sense of hope and purpose.  The chaplains were the most fun of these to watch--with no proselytizing agenda whatsoever, they just went around to groups of soldiers offering an upbeat joke or a word of encouragement.

Have to point out that this is strictly Argument from anecdote. Unless you knew every atheist and every christian and did a blinded study of them, using proper psychological scientific methodology, and without the considerable observer bias you bring to the observation itself, this tells us nothing more than your own "feelings" toward this. And those are no more worthwhile than mine, Wilson's, or anyone else's feelings on the subject.

So while this is a nice exercise in telling a story, it has no weight. I'll also put my money on the soldier immersing himself in the technical details of the mission any day, since I was one of them. And that was back in the days when I was a born-again christian.

It's a nice idea but you haven't taken into consideratin group bias, Mcq.