In search of some hope in Arabia

[darkcyd]

So, most people in the US, christians and atheists alike, are just plain distressed with Islam.

The manic state of people who live from Sudan to Pakistan is a concern to all people. How do you ever have a dialogue when so many people are blindly accepting of whatever madness is yelled at prayer services blindly.

Let me divide my problems up so I am making some coherent sense.
1. How do you get people who are brainwashed to think for themselves. Sure, its a problem in this country too, see Fox. But we seem to take everything with a grain of salt. We are used to being lied to and expect that to some degree out of all leaders. The problem here, is there no bull shit filter.

2. How do you moderate this area. Some of the generally accepted speech in this area is pretty brutal toward the US and the "west." I suppose another side issue to this is, I don't believe the society can exist without hate. Without Jews or the US hate, they'd have to think about their own problems. Ignore the fact you only ate one meal today, its those damn Americans somehow.

The last question is how do you get Islam itself to think more nationally. By that, I mean if you asked a large portion of nonmuslims how close their ties were with their religion vs their country and I believe the vast majority of people would hold nearly as tight national identify as they do religious. With Muslims, I do not believe that is the case and a subjective generalization I leave to discuss.

In searching for answers though I did find some beacons of thought in the area.
Dr. Abd Al-Hamid Al-Ansari, probably my new favorite Muslim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9lXZrni ... re=related

Burhan Ghalioun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGlGa1DSPu8

[PoopShoot]

Carpet bombing.

[Will]

We leave and never look back.

99.9999% of "radical Islam" is actually a direct response to Western imperialism. It has little or nothing to do with jihad and everything to do with the United States overthrowing Iran's democratically elected, moderate government or supporting despots or putting in place puppet governments or backing Israel's collective punishment of the Gazans. I'm not excusing terrorism, of course, but I think it's important to look at it for what it really is. The groupthink we see is more the peons, the foot soldiers. The people who arrange attacks and set propaganda are playing a deeper game and only see religion as a tool to manipulate those few for whom the bombings and sanctions and assassinations and invasions aren't enough motivation.

What we're seeing now, in terms of the radicalized Islam, is leftovers of Wahhabism which are only still in place because the region is unstable because of world powers fighting over resources. When the oil finally runs dry, suddenly the "terrorist regimes" and "evildoers" will be somewhere else, coincidentally where there are resources.

[The Magic Pudding]

We leave and never look back.

99.9999% of "radical Islam" is actually a direct response to Western imperialism. It has little or nothing to do with jihad and everything to do with the United States overthrowing Iran's democratically elected, moderate government or supporting despots or putting in place puppet governments or backing Israel's collective punishment of the Gazans.

People in Muslim countries have a long memory, the crusades are well remembered, some still bear a grudge against Alexander The Great.

What we're seeing now, in terms of the radicalized Islam, is leftovers of Wahhabism which are only still in place because the region is unstable because of world powers fighting over resources. When the oil finally runs dry, suddenly the "terrorist regimes" and "evildoers" will be somewhere else, coincidentally where there are resources.

I look forward to oil alternatives, and I wouldn't mind trying a different approach to the war on drugs.
The current approach puts money in the pockets of criminals and religious loons, and they can't even keep drugs out of jails.

[Will]

People in Muslim countries have a long memory, the crusades are well remembered, some still bear a grudge against Alexander The Great.

Yeah, but they're not attacking Mesopotamia. They're going to be pissed at us for a long while, but if we leave right now, the terrorist threat against us will subside. People don't become terrorists for the hell of it, terrorism comes from desperation. The US should pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan completely, stop backing the Saudi royals, end all sanctions, and allow a neutral party to step in and mediate between Israel and Palestine. Maybe the EU or the UN.

I look forward to oil alternatives, and I wouldn't mind trying a different approach to the war on drugs.
The current approach puts money in the pockets of criminals and religious loons, and they can't even keep drugs out of jails.

I totally agree.

[christiandane]

They're going to be pissed at us for a long while, but if we leave right now, the terrorist threat against us will subside.

I don't know if that's necessarily true. Terrorism does grow from desperation, often nourished by strong religious rhetoric, but I don't see either one of those causes going away when the U.S. leaves. Plus, that desperation is not solely due to U.S. involvement in Arab countries. Lack of natural resources (with obvious exceptions), colonialism, and Islamic fatalism all contribute to the miserable conditions in which Middle Easterners live. Additionally, a lot of their anger has to do with a perceived slight against Islam itself by the entire western world because the West is simultaneously secular and economically successful, something that should be impossible if what the Qur'an says were true. I'm not necessarily saying that our involvement helps matters, but it's certainly not the only (and perhaps not even the most influential) cause of Islamic terrorism.

[Whitney]

Ever read 1984?  One of the of the things big brother does in that book is convince people that something is true when it isn't....we have always been at war with...

I'm personally not convinced that there are really that many militant Muslims.  I've met quite a few Muslims who are in the US on work/education visas and they have all been good people from my experience with them.

In short, I don't think there is a problem to fix; at least not one any bigger than our problem with radical Christian denominations.

[christiandane]

In short, I don't think there is a problem to fix; at least not one any bigger than our problem with radical Christian denominations.

I hear that a lot (I live in Dallas too btw), and a few years ago I would have said the same. My opinion changed dramatically after living in Egypt. I was raised in a Christian household in Waxahachie, and the fundamentalism that you see there can be a bit scary, but there are some notable differences. For one thing, in Texas bizarre, extreme opinions are normally voiced only by people who seem a bit loony to everyone else. The average Texan hears them and thinks, "Tone it down a bit." This is not the case in the Middle East. Ideas that should be horrifying are spelled out all the time by ordinary people: cab drivers, shop owners, young people, even teachers. It's not the nature of the ideas (both ideologies contain appalling things) so much as how common those extremist ideas are batted around in the Arab world. For example, it would sound crazy for a Christian in the South to say, "The Jews should be exterminated." That same statement can be dropped in a casual conversation in Egypt.

[darkcyd]

In short, I don't think there is a problem to fix; at least not one any bigger than our problem with radical Christian denominations.

I hear that a lot (I live in Dallas too btw), and a few years ago I would have said the same. My opinion changed dramatically after living in Egypt. I was raised in a Christian household in Waxahachie, and the fundamentalism that you see there can be a bit scary, but there are some notable differences. For one thing, in Texas bizarre, extreme opinions are normally voiced only by people who seem a bit loony to everyone else. The average Texan hears them and thinks, "Tone it down a bit." This is not the case in the Middle East. Ideas that should be horrifying are spelled out all the time by ordinary people: cab drivers, shop owners, young people, even teachers. It's not the nature of the ideas (both ideologies contain appalling things) so much as how common those extremist ideas are batted around in the Arab world. For example, it would sound crazy for a Christian in the South to say, "The Jews should be exterminated." That same statement can be dropped in a casual conversation in Egypt.

Exactly what I was saying about the lack of a filter. The Israel thing completely separate, if you polled muslims in those lands of how many saw the US as an invading force looking for an extended occupation of Iraq, almost everyone would see that. Why? These people had to get their information somewhere. Their information came from Clergy, newspapers and TV. I think the problem here is they are all frequently chanting the same mantra with no objective view.

Not saying being in Iraq was right or wrong. But, no one wanted to stay in Iraq more than a second longer than we had to and I don't understand how that point never came across to the Arabs.

[darkcyd]

Ever read 1984?  One of the of the things big brother does in that book is convince people that something is true when it isn't....we have always been at war with...

I'm personally not convinced that there are really that many militant Muslims.  I've met quite a few Muslims who are in the US on work/education visas and they have all been good people from my experience with them.

In short, I don't think there is a problem to fix; at least not one any bigger than our problem with radical Christian denominations.

Okay, Westboro baptist church is probably about as bad as the christians get. Now, nobody likes these guys. They are the most offensive group we create. However, at last check, they hadn't killed anybody. They hadn't planned on killing anybody. If people died, they attributed it to some convoluted way god did it to punish them for x, y or z. But they were removed from the action.

I suppose the question I now have is, how in the hundreds of thousands of videos of clerics and political figures proclaiming we need to kill all jews and christians can you not see this active extremism. In the thousands of videos of them killing or near killing people for witchcraft, women walking with men, or other charges that aren't fathomable by people used to growing up free with some due process, I believe there is obvious active extremism. If you really don't believe any of this as an instance of people bringing out the exceptions and not the generalization, go there. Go to any of these countries and find out. Upon returning, you will either be in agreement or muslim.

I am not saying the christians haven't been worse. The inquisition was certainly as bad but that is nearly what these people consider normality. I don't see how you can say well the westboro baptist church is no worse than the inquisition.

[PoopShoot]

Isn't that evidence that the religion has progressed?

[christiandane]

If you really don't believe any of this as an instance of people bringing out the exceptions and not the generalization, go there. Go to any of these countries and find out. Upon returning, you will either be in agreement or muslim.

That's exactly what I feel like I'm always trying to say. Granted I'm no expert on the Middle East, but what I do know about the places I have been to is that extremism is an entirely different ballgame. It's so much more entrenched and accepted than what we would call extremism in the U.S. The uncomfortable fact is, these absurdly backward ideas are often expressed by the most mainstream people in Egypt. Even when other people disagree, they usually keep silent because there is so much backlash against people who are seen as not being religious enough. Even more amazing are the things that can get you labeled as an iconoclast in Egypt. Everything from reading about evolution to wanting to travel to Europe can lead to your exile from polite society there. It's perfectly acceptable to say very extremist things, but to criticize someone for saying such things would be social suicide. The same is only true in very few places in the U.S.