Rational Thinking Is Not Natural

[PoopShoot]

Because they haven't been trained how to think rationally.

Funny how there's not a course for that in god's perfect word.  You know, that one book that contains everything you should ever need to know?

[Jac3510]

Because they haven't been trained how to think rationally.

Funny how there's not a course for that in god's perfect word.  You know, that one book that contains everything you should ever need to know?

Which book is that? I need a copy of that one.

[PoopShoot]

Because they haven't been trained how to think rationally.

Funny how there's not a course for that in god's perfect word.  You know, that one book that contains everything you should ever need to know?

Which book is that? I need a copy of that one.

The next time Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door, ask for  free copy.

[Jac3510]

The next time Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door, ask for  free copy.

That might be an approach worth trying. They aren't allowed to read from any book I might have on my shelf . . . :p

[PoopShoot]

The next time Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door, ask for  free copy.

That might be an approach worth trying. They aren't allowed to read from any book I might have on my shelf . . . :p

Then you should probably get something intellectual.

[Jac3510]

Then you should probably get something intellectual.

I assume you are aware that JW's aren't allowed to read non-JW literature, and hence, the reference . . .

[PoopShoot]

Then you should probably get something intellectual.

I assume you are aware that JW's aren't allowed to read non-JW literature, and hence, the reference . . .

I assume you're unaware that your statement is only accurate insofar as religious literature is concerned, excluding bibles.

[i_am_i]

Jac3510. Is there a supernatural explanation for irrational thought?

[Tank]

Jac3510. Is there a supernatural explanation for irrational thought?

Of course there is! There is a supernatural explanation for everything, pity is none of them are correct.

[dloubet]

The universe is not deterministic. The fact that the radioactive decay of an atom is a Random (with a capital "R") occurance should put that idea to rest once and for all. Yes, the universe operates according to strictly deterministic physical rules, but since it can also accomodate random events such as atomic decay the future is not determined. The universe is stochastic, and the future is not written in stone.

Yes, the operation of our brains is mechanical, and shares with the falling rock its adherance to physical law. But that does not mean that logical or rational thought is not happening in the brain. You wouldn't say a computer is not calculating simply because it's a machine operating according to strict physical law. Of course it's calculating, and of course we can think rationally. It's what atoms in those arrangements do.

And free will. Please. It's not even an illusion, it's just an assertion. I did not get to choose my nature, and my nature forces everything I do. So no free will.

But no determinism either. We're meat robots marching towards an open future.

I like it.

[i_am_i]

We're meat robots marching towards an open future.

I like it.

That sounds like something that Kurt Vonnegut might have written. In that spirit I quite like it too.

[Sophus]

The universe is not deterministic. The fact that the radioactive decay of an atom is a Random (with a capital "R") occurance should put that idea to rest once and for all. Yes, the universe operates according to strictly deterministic physical rules, but since it can also accomodate random events such as atomic decay the future is not determined. The universe is stochastic, and the future is not written in stone.

Yes, the operation of our brains is mechanical, and shares with the falling rock its adherance to physical law. But that does not mean that logical or rational thought is not happening in the brain. You wouldn't say a computer is not calculating simply because it's a machine operating according to strict physical law. Of course it's calculating, and of course we can think rationally. It's what atoms in those arrangements do.

And free will. Please. It's not even an illusion, it's just an assertion. I did not get to choose my nature, and my nature forces everything I do. So no free will.

But no determinism either. We're meat robots marching towards an open future.

I like it.

Instead of random, would it be more appropriate to say an element of chance? Random seems to apply outcome is almost completely ungoverned whereas chance can explain why some outcomes are more probable and that there is still a cause and effect going on. I dunno, only semantics I guess.

[dloubet]

Oh, there's still cause and effect! That's what I mean when I say the universe is mechanical. It's utterly deterministic clockwork but for the existence of acausal random events. It's those random events -- that the otherwise mechanical universe accomodates -- that makes the universe not deterministic.

The random decay of an atom creates debris that behaves completely deterministically, but the timing of the decay itself was completely random.

So for the most part, we can treat the universe as predictable and deterministic since the rules that apply to the scales we're used to appear to act that way.

(But lest one think that atomic decay is too small to make meaningful changes in the universe, a single decay can release debris that damage a cell in just the wrong way to cause a cancer and kill the host. Pick any famous figure of history and imagine how the world would be different if that person had died of cancer as a young child. These random events matter.)

[dloubet]

the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences.

If that's the definition of reason, then far from reason not being natural, I would argue that it's the natural state, and our bigger brains merely provide the means to be less rational.

If a planaria in an experiment can learn to expect pain and avoid it by trial and error, then I'd say it's being rational. When you train your dog, the dog is behaving rationally from its perspective. It's trying to avoid that punishment or get that treat by forming a conclusion about the consistent way the world appears to work. If I hear this, and I do this, I get the treat! That's completely rational if that's what actually happens.

We're the ones that keep buying those lottery tickets even thought we never actually win. Our big brains seem to only serve up better rationalizations, and rationalization does not equal rational.

[NearBr0ken]

There must be a supernatural part of you if you are to think logically.

I don't follow...

I propose that those animals in the wild which had bad problem solving abilities died before they could reproduce due to an inability to make accurate connections between circumstances and objects.  Therefore, as generations passed, the animals that were able to accurately make connections between circumstances and objects and use that information for their own benefit (survival, reproduction, etc.) would be more likely to survive and reproduce, thus passing the "logical genes" to the next generation.  Within a few generations, the illogical animals die out leaving only logical animals.  This is evolution.

No supernatural intervention is required.  Occam's Razor states that "plurality should not be posited without necessity", or in simpler terms, "Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred."  Therefore, the theory which requires no intervention should be preferred over the theory requiring supernatural intervention because it makes the fewest assumptions.