Re: Should one Christian be reponsible for Christianity?

[AnimatedDirt]

Oh, you'll find a lot of discrimination against Jews by Christians.  Ironic.  The truth is, Christians shouldn't discriminate against the homosexuals as they do.  What they are doing is making sin into a heirarchy system where one sin is worse than another.  It goes 100% against the biblical teaching of there being only ONE sin that cannot be pardoned.  But we are humans and as humans do, we discriminate against that which we do not agree with.  Similar to Atheists against Christians...as some do.

A fair answer. Still, it seems to be easier to get away with discriminating against gays or atheists than it is with discriminating against jews or women.

As I said, they do discriminate against Jews...AND women.  How many ordained women do you see around?  The trend is slowly changing, but the majority still have a difficult time in doing so.  There is a good number of ordained women, but in comparison to the number of ordained men...

[Voter]

If there wasn't a push for gay marriage rights, gay church membership/clergy, etc., I doubt many Christians would say much about gays at all.

What does that mean?

It means it's easier "to get away with" discrimination that is not illegal. The point is so obvious I'm surprised he even asked the question.

If the gays learn their place and stop demanding equal rights the Christians wouldn't have to fight for their "right" to bigotry discrimination?

Aside from the loaded wording, yes, that's the point. Few Christians go about "bash[ing] gays for simply being gay."

[Asmodean]

As I said, they do discriminate against Jews...AND women.

Answered from my local perspective

How many ordained women do you see around?

Quite a lot. Some are openly homosexual too. They tend to get a lot of shit for being gay, yet only a tiny little bit for being a priest... Or a woman. Or a woman priest.

The trend is slowly changing, but the majority still have a difficult time in doing so.

I don't have the exact statistics for my country, but I think there are quite a lot of female priests.

There is a good number of ordained women, but in comparison to the number of ordained men...

Here, women are just as welcome as men to study theology and get ordained. Whether or not they do is more a matter of tradition and personal choice than discrimination. Also, pretty much the only ones who would dare discriminate against a jew are people like me, who simply don't care, and the neo-nazis, who DO care, only... the wrong way.

In any case, my point is that, from a local perspective, that being gay you get three-four times the crap you get for being something else, and religious types are usually the first to discriminate against sexual orientations other than mainstream heterosexuality.

[AnimatedDirt]

In any case, my point is that, from a local perspective, that being gay you get three-four times the crap you get for being something else, and religious types are usually the first to discriminate against sexual orientations other than mainstream heterosexuality.

Agreed.

[elliebean]

If the gays learn their place and stop demanding equal rights the Christians wouldn't have to fight for their "right" to bigotry discrimination?

Aside from the loaded wording, yes, that's the point. Few Christians go about "bash[ing] gays for simply being gay."

The loaded wording is more to the point than you know. What you've stated is, essentially, that if only christians could freely discriminate against gays with impunity and without all the complaints, there wouldn't be so much "bashing". For my part, I'd rather take the bashing, then; at least I can "bash" back. And will. And have.

[Voter]

The loaded wording is more to the point than you know.

So enlighten me. I can only go by what I know. Unless there's a gay marriage vote or court case coming up, the topic doesn't come up in my circle.

What you've stated is, essentially, that if only christians could freely discriminate against gays with impunity and without all the complaints, there wouldn't be so much "bashing". For my part, I'd rather take the bashing, then; at least I can "bash" back. And will. And have.

And some on your side proactively bash Christians. Sites like this are an example, and this one is much calmer than most. So what's the problem?

[Whitney]

And some on your side proactively bash Christians.

It would only be proactive if they hadn't yet done something to deserve it...most fundamentalists did/said something to deserve it.  Most of us think jews, pagans, hindus etc are just as silly yet we don't worry about them having odd beliefs because they don't evangelize or cry about their beliefs not being ingrained in all aspects of private and government life.

IMO, it's very hateful to bash someone simply because they want equal rights.  That's what people did to blacks when they asked for equal rights...

[Tank]

The loaded wording is more to the point than you know.

So enlighten me. I can only go by what I know. Unless there's a gay marriage vote or court case coming up, the topic doesn't come up in my circle.

What you've stated is, essentially, that if only christians could freely discriminate against gays with impunity and without all the complaints, there wouldn't be so much "bashing". For my part, I'd rather take the bashing, then; at least I can "bash" back. And will. And have.

And some on your side proactively bash Christians. Sites like this are an example, and this one is much calmer than most. So what's the problem?

Voter

Your world view is your world view. If you keep it to yourself then I don't really care what it is. Trouble is you won't keep it to yourself and that's fine too. But if you won't keep your beliefs to yourself you have no right, no right whatsoever, not to have your world view bashed. You make your world view public and debate it then you will get it bashed or supported or ignored. But once a world view is in the public domain, and Christianity is very much in the public domain, it becomes fair game for criticism. I'm sure you realise this. You can't play the 'special pleading' card anymore because Christianity has lost it's grip on the law, which is a good thing as theocracies are bad.

Chris

[Sophus]

f the gays learn their place and stop demanding equal rights the Christians wouldn't have to fight for their "right" to bigotry discrimination?

Aside from the loaded wording, yes, that's the point. Few Christians go about "bash[ing] gays for simply being gay."

That's disgusting and vile. It just so obviously happens that treating these people differently because of their orientation is doing so on the sole basis that they are gay. Yes, how dare they demand equal rights... How dare they say "enough" to being treated like second class citizens or worse....

I can't continue this conversation less I break the civility rules.  

[AnimatedDirt]

f the gays learn their place and stop demanding equal rights the Christians wouldn't have to fight for their "right" to bigotry discrimination?

Aside from the loaded wording, yes, that's the point. Few Christians go about "bash[ing] gays for simply being gay."

That's disgusting and vile. It just so obviously happens that treating these people differently because of their orientation is doing so on the sole basis that they are gay. Yes, how dare they demand equal rights... How dare they say "enough" to being treated like second class citizens or worse....

I can't continue this conversation less I break the civility rules.  

I think you miss the point and I do understand your frustration.  I share in that frustration.
Granted it is very difficult to convey through wording, but I'll try.

I believe what Voter is saying is that Christians don't "bash" homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  They "bash" them (wrongly) for their apparent disregard for what God (for the Christian) says is wrong.  It's not wrong to BE homosexual it's wrong to participate in homosexual acts with regard to sex.  Now, I'll admit that Christians do take the high road and simply bash the homosexual community.  I don't agree with that at all.  They tell them they are going to hell...and so on.  These are the Christians that make sin a heirarchy and put weight on different sins, where the Bible explicitly states that sin is sin no matter if it is murder by definintion or evil thoughts...adultery in action or thoughts of lust that are equal to adultery.  I hope you understand what I mean.  It's delicate.  I support the homosexual civil right movement and believe the homosexual to have no greater sin than I do.  Some of my Christian friends take it too far and out of Christian AND human context.

Voter if my interpretation is wrong on what you mean, then correct me.  But this is basically how I feel on the matter.

[Voter]

It would only be proactive if they hadn't yet done something to deserve it...most fundamentalists did/said something to deserve it.  Most of us think jews, pagans, hindus etc are just as silly yet we don't worry about them having odd beliefs because they don't evangelize or cry about their beliefs not being ingrained in all aspects of private and government life.

My point exactly. Most Christians don't care about the sexual practices of non-Christians unless those people are crying about their lifestyle not being officially validated by society.

IMO, it's very hateful to bash someone simply because they want equal rights.  That's what people did to blacks when they asked for equal rights...

IMO, it's very disrespectful to compare the discrimination against blacks for their skin color to discrimination against someone for who they want to have sex with...

[Voter]

Your world view is your world view. If you keep it to yourself then I don't really care what it is. Trouble is you won't keep it to yourself and that's fine too. But if you won't keep your beliefs to yourself you have no right, no right whatsoever, not to have your world view bashed. You make your world view public and debate it then you will get it bashed or supported or ignored.

BINGO! Have a cigar!

This is exactly what I'm saying about homosexuality.

But once a world view is in the public domain, and Christianity is very much in the public domain, it becomes fair game for criticism. I'm sure you realise this. You can't play the 'special pleading' card anymore because Christianity has lost it's grip on the law, which is a good thing as theocracies are bad.

Chris

I'm not asking for any different treatment. I completely agree with you. I thought that was clear when I said, "What's the problem?" If I had a problem with people bashing Christianity, I wouldn't hang out at atheist sites! In societies with some sort of democracy, this is how it works. Some are for taxation of churches and gay marriage, some are against, we butt heads - what's the problem?

[Voter]

That's disgusting and vile. It just so obviously happens that treating these people differently because of their orientation is doing so on the sole basis that they are gay.

No it isn't. They're not a different color or something. I don't know they're gay unless they tell me. I can't treat someone differently on the sole basis of being gay when I don't even know they're gay.

Yes, how dare they demand equal rights... How dare they say "enough" to being treated like second class citizens or worse....

How dare I have a different opinion than you!

[Voter]

Voter if my interpretation is wrong on what you mean, then correct me.  But this is basically how I feel on the matter.

It's wrong. I basically have two points:

1. Most Christians don't bash gays simply for being gay. I.e., there's usually a topical reason that homosexuality is addressed.

2. That Christians do speak their mind when homosexuality is topical for whatever reason is normal and an acceptable part of a democratic society.

[Whitney]

IMO, it's very disrespectful to compare the discrimination against blacks for their skin color to discrimination against someone for who they want to have sex with...

Both can't control how they were born.  I don't' care if I or anyone else here is disrespectful of bigoted views.