Re: Should one Christian be reponsible for Christianity?

[Voter]

[quitting coffee, please forgive the errors]

[Tank]

[quitting coffee, please forgive the errors]

good luck!

[Davin]

I understand your point. Now how can I hold AnimatedDirt to account for Voter's (presumed) stance when both Voter and AnimatedDirt have independently come to their respective Christian world view and self declaration? I don't think I could. The label Christian is so nebulous and varied it is effectively meaningless in terms of defining group action and therefore responsibility.

The label religious is even more nebulous. Yet, consider Whitney's recent thread on the mother who killed her son in a botched exorcism. It's posted on the Religion rather than the Current Events board, and no additional comment is given. The reasonable inference is that she thinks all religion bears responsibility for the actions of this one person.

I think that's going a bit too far right there. It was put in the religion forum most likely because exorcisms are religious and the person was religious, not because all religions (including Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians... etc.), are responsible for it. So I don't think that is a reasonable inference, I think that is a very irrational inference.

[AnimatedDirt]

God loves the homosexual equally as much as He loves the heterosexual.  There is no difference.  Both are sinners, one no more or less than the other.  Both need grace equally and both can receive that grace in their sinful state gay or straight, married or single...

I thought that there was a bit in Romans somewhere that says that homosexuality is a punishment created by God and thus all homosexuals are God's creation? Which rather contradicts the underlined.  

Maybe you could find the Romans text or maybe it's not in Romans.  I'd like to know what you're referring to here.

[Voter]

God loves the homosexual equally as much as He loves the heterosexual.  There is no difference.  Both are sinners, one no more or less than the other.  Both need grace equally and both can receive that grace in their sinful state gay or straight, married or single...

I thought that there was a bit in Romans somewhere that says that homosexuality is a punishment created by God and thus all homosexuals are God's creation? Which rather contradicts the underlined.  

Maybe you could find the Romans text or maybe it's not in Romans.  I'd like to know what you're referring to here.

Probably Romans 1:24-27
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

I would disagree that "gave them up to" indicates that God created homosexuality, but other than that he's correct on the point.

However, he's incorrect to claim the contradiction, because the passage goes on to a big list of other things which God gave them up to, also in punishment, including sexual immorality in general, therefore including heterosexual sins.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Homosexuality seems to be listed first and in greater detail because it is apparently unnatural.

Hope that helps.

[Tank]

God loves the homosexual equally as much as He loves the heterosexual.  There is no difference.  Both are sinners, one no more or less than the other.  Both need grace equally and both can receive that grace in their sinful state gay or straight, married or single...

I thought that there was a bit in Romans somewhere that says that homosexuality is a punishment created by God and thus all homosexuals are God's creation? Which rather contradicts the underlined.  :upset:

[Voter]

Bugger! Now I'll have to do some work!  

[Tank]

God loves the homosexual equally as much as He loves the heterosexual.  There is no difference.  Both are sinners, one no more or less than the other.  Both need grace equally and both can receive that grace in their sinful state gay or straight, married or single...

I thought that there was a bit in Romans somewhere that says that homosexuality is a punishment created by God and thus all homosexuals are God's creation? Which rather contradicts the underlined.  

Maybe you could find the Romans text or maybe it's not in Romans.  I'd like to know what you're referring to here.

Probably Romans 1:24-27
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

I would disagree that "gave them up to" indicates that God created homosexuality, but other than that he's correct on the point.

However, he's incorrect to claim the contradiction, because the passage goes on to a big list of other things which God gave them up to, also in punishment, including sexual immorality in general, therefore including heterosexual sins.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Homosexuality seems to be listed first and in greater detail because it is apparently unnatural.

Hope that helps.

I think that's the bit that I was referring to. I recall it from a debate at RDF where a person was using the argument that homosexuality was a punishment and therefore God was responsible for homosexuality. I raise this only as it appears to contradict ADs comment about God loving people irrespective of their sexual preferences. I'm no biblical scholar so you'll have to debate this while I watch from the sidelines. Thanks Voter.

[Tank]

Bugger! Now I'll have to do some work!  

[LegendarySandwich]

I understand your point. Now how can I hold AnimatedDirt to account for Voter's (presumed) stance when both Voter and AnimatedDirt have independently come to their respective Christian world view and self declaration? I don't think I could. The label Christian is so nebulous and varied it is effectively meaningless in terms of defining group action and therefore responsibility.

The label religious is even more nebulous. Yet, consider Whitney's recent thread on the mother who killed her son in a botched exorcism. It's posted on the Religion rather than the Current Events board, and no additional comment is given. The reasonable inference is that she thinks all religion bears responsibility for the actions of this one person.

Yes, that's such a reasonable thing to infer from her post. How dare she imply that all religious people will, have, or are killing their children in botched exorcisms, and then carrying around their dead remains in a tote bag for a year! The nerve!

[Voter]

Yes, that's such a reasonable thing to infer from her post. How dare she imply that all religious people will, have, or are killing their children in botched exorcisms, and then carrying around their dead remains in a tote bag for a year! The nerve!

That's a straw man. I said the implication is that religious people are responsible, not that they will emulate.

[LegendarySandwich]

Yes, that's such a reasonable thing to infer from her post. How dare she imply that all religious people will, have, or are killing their children in botched exorcisms, and then carrying around their dead remains in a tote bag for a year! The nerve!

That's a straw man. I said the implication is that religious people are responsible, not that they will emulate.

"Yes, that's such a reasonable thing to infer from her post. How dare she imply that all religious people are responsible for the people that will, have, or are killing their children in botched exorcisms, and then carrying around their dead remains in a tote bag for a year! The nerve!"

Is that better?

[AnimatedDirt]

I think that's the bit that I was referring to. I recall it from a debate at RDF where a person was using the argument that homosexuality was a punishment and therefore God was responsible for homosexuality. I raise this only as it appears to contradict ADs comment about God loving people irrespective of their sexual preferences. I'm no biblical scholar so you'll have to debate this while I watch from the sidelines. Thanks Voter.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

Homosexuality is not a punishment, but it is a natural occurrence when the sinful heart is allowed to rule the whole body.  When it reads, "God gave them over..." it doesn't mean God MADE them, but allowed their hearts (freewill) to run their lives which then lead to sexual immoral acts AND...

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.  They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.  Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

It's all inclusive at what God "gave them over" to.  It's a statement of God, while dictating what is right and wrong (assuming He is God and not just a god) and His willingness to let each choose their destiny.

As Romans progresses and states the above in different ways to better understand, it says further down...

What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.  As it is written:

  "There is no one righteous, not even one;
  there is no one who understands,
  no one who seeks God."

"We" being Jews specifically knowing God, but Christians, or those who follow Christ (since the Pharisees, the top Jews, didn't agree or believe Christ).  This proves, then, that we are all the same.  All are in the same boat.  The homosexual is no worse a sinner than the heterosexual.  ALL are unrighteous.  How then does this Gospel thing work then?  To say, would be preaching.  The point here is to answer Tank's question if homosexuality/all sexual immorality is a punishment.  It isn't.  It's what Man does naturally when left to his own ways and desires.  So it is not contradictory to state that God loves the homosexual equally as much as He loves the heterosexual.  Both are sinners.

[Voter]

The point here is to answer Tank's question if homosexuality/all sexual immorality is a punishment.  It isn't.

I have to disagree. That seems like the best interpretation of " receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." Sounds like punishment to me.

It's what Man does naturally when left to his own ways and desires.  So it is not contradictory to state that God loves the homosexual equally as much as He loves the heterosexual.  Both are sinners.

That I agree with.

[AnimatedDirt]

The point here is to answer Tank's question if homosexuality/all sexual immorality is a punishment.  It isn't.

I have to disagree. That seems like the best interpretation of " receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." Sounds like punishment to me.

Yes, but that is not specific to homosexuality because there are many sins listed that "God gave them over" to.  It is the result of sin (death) that is the punishment.  One might even argue that those words have an erie allusion to the AIDS virus, but that's speculation at best if you narrow their subject as homosexual acts only.  Even if, this is a consequence of sin and not the punishment.