Do theists really believe that the Devil is real?

[karadan]

I think there is a difference between belief in the existence of, and belief with your own eyes. If believers in the devil actually saw a very real approximation of the devil, i'm pretty sure the rational parts of their brain would do anything possible to explain what they are seeing before giving in to the notion it is actually Mr. Lucifer himself.

I find it hard to believe the first impulse of a believer would be to 100% accept the big red dude with horns and a pitch fork as the real deal.

[Martin TK]

Actually I meant both Christians AND Jews

As for Jews not believing in the devil, that's not strange at all.  According to Wikipedia, there isn't really a concept of a devil in Judaism.

However, I find it very strange that the majority of Christians of the time would not believe in the devil as a real entity (do you know of any cross-references to the statement by the show on History Channel?)  Satan and demons were very often mentioned in Jesus's teachings.

... assuming, of course, that the Gospels accurately report his words and deeds.

Exactly my point, since we KNOW that the Gospels were NOT written by those who actually knew Jesus, but wrote second hand, sometime after his death.  I can't, in my own mind, allow the Gospels to be a reliable historical source for anything, mainly because IF ONE thing can be proven wrong in the Gospels, then everything has to be suspect.

[Reginus]

Actually I meant both Christians AND Jews

As for Jews not believing in the devil, that's not strange at all.  According to Wikipedia, there isn't really a concept of a devil in Judaism.

However, I find it very strange that the majority of Christians of the time would not believe in the devil as a real entity (do you know of any cross-references to the statement by the show on History Channel?)  Satan and demons were very often mentioned in Jesus's teachings.

... assuming, of course, that the Gospels accurately report his words and deeds.

Of course.

[Double D]

As for Jews not believing in the devil, that's not strange at all.  According to Wikipedia, there isn't really a concept of a devil in Judaism.

However, I find it very strange that the majority of Christians of the time would not believe in the devil as a real entity (do you know of any cross-references to the statement by the show on History Channel?)  Satan and demons were very often mentioned in Jesus's teachings.

... assuming, of course, that the Gospels accurately report his words and deeds.

Exactly my point, since we KNOW that the Gospels were NOT written by those who actually knew Jesus, but wrote second hand, sometime after his death.  I can't, in my own mind, allow the Gospels to be a reliable historical source for anything, mainly because IF ONE thing can be proven wrong in the Gospels, then everything has to be suspect.

We do?

[pinkocommie]

Exactly my point, since we KNOW that the Gospels were NOT written by those who actually knew Jesus, but wrote second hand, sometime after his death.  I can't, in my own mind, allow the Gospels to be a reliable historical source for anything, mainly because IF ONE thing can be proven wrong in the Gospels, then everything has to be suspect.

We do?

Do you have evidence that what has been said is incorrect?  If so, please share.  I thought it was commonly accepted among theologians that the bible was not written by people who knew Jesus, but I'm certainly no expert.  Also, welcome to the forum!  We have an 'introductions' section that is great for letting everyone know you're here to participate in the forum and aren't just drive-by posting for a day.  Otherwise, your posts might initially be met with some suspicion - we get a fair share of theist drive-bys here.    Regardless, I hope you decide to stick around.  Another point of view is always appreciated.

[Double D]

Do you have evidence that what has been said is incorrect? If so, please share. I thought it was commonly accepted among theologians that the bible was not written by people who knew Jesus, but I'm certainly no expert. Also, welcome to the forum! We have an 'introductions' section that is great for letting everyone know you're here to participate in the forum and aren't just drive-by posting for a day. Otherwise, your posts might initially be met with some suspicion - we get a fair share of theist drive-bys here.  Regardless, I hope you decide to stick around. Another point of view is always appreciated.

Thanks for the welcome, I appreciate it.  I'll be sure to stop by the welcome area, for some reason I totally missed it.  I'm sure you do get your fair share of 'theist drive bys'.  I'll try to stick around longer, though I do carry a pretty full schedule at times (don't we all?).

To contradict your point, it is actually commonly accepted that 2 of the 4 Gospel writers had actually not only met Jesus, but were his disciples (Matthew & John).  Of course, they all had 'knew' him!  

Origen (AD 185-254) writes , "the first  [Gospel] was written by Matthew, who was once a publican, but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, and it was prepared for the converts from Judaism" Ecclesiastical History, 6:25

Irenaeus (~AD 130-200) was a disciple of Polycarp (~AD 70-160), who was a disciple of the Apostle John, and he testified on Ploycarp's authority that John wrote the gospel while living at Epesus in Asia Minor (modern day Turkey), when he was quite advanced in age Against Heresies 2.22.5; 3.1.1


Respectfully,
Denny

[pinkocommie]

Hi and thanks for your response.  

I would love to learn more about the information you've given me, can you tell me where this information is from or give me a link where I can read up on the source of this material?  I tried looking up the end bits that were in italics and I was directed to the wikipedia page on the Nazarene sect of Christianity and a New Advent page.  I'm a little confused, are you quoting from a reputable source?  Thanks!