Asking theists the burning questions

[Double D]

quote="The Bible"]Once again the Israelites felt the LORD's anger, when he incited David against them and instructed him to take a census of Israel and Judah.

Then go forward a few pages and read 1 Chronicles 21:1.

Now SATAN, setting himself against Israel, incited David to make a census of the people.

BIBLE FAIL!

As for whether or not the Bible condones violence, it does. And it's not isolated incidents, it is in just about every single book, about 1200 violent acts in all.

Don't believe me? http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html It's all in there. Why does your loving God do these things?[/quote]

Wow, hard to believe that the editors of the Bible let that one slip for the last 3000 years or so.  

David sinned when he desired to number his army and the population of Israel.  What was his sin?  Pride, arrogance, an attitude of, "Look what I did" rather than "Look at what God did through me".  Nothing happens without God allowing it, and in this case, God allowed Satan to incite David to take the census.  Once again, it does not mean that taking a census is evil, but rather God looks at the motives of the heart and judges from there.

The Lord is many things, and loving is just one aspect.  He is also just, upholding His law for everyone, and showing no favoritism.  My sin is as bad as your sin which is as bad as the richest person's sin which is as bad as the poorest person's sin.  And it is that sin that separates us from Him.  The loving part comes into play when he paid the price of His Son for our sins, condemning Him that lead a perfect life and imputing His perfect life onto us.

[KebertX]

Wow, hard to believe that the editors of the Bible let that one slip for the last 3000 years or so.  

David sinned when he desired to number his army and the population of Israel.  What was his sin?  Pride, arrogance, an attitude of, "Look what I did" rather than "Look at what God did through me".  Nothing happens without God allowing it, and in this case, God allowed Satan to incite David to take the census.  Once again, it does not mean that taking a census is evil, but rather God looks at the motives of the heart and judges from there.

The Lord is many things, and loving is just one aspect.  He is also just, upholding His law for everyone, and showing no favoritism.  My sin is as bad as your sin which is as bad as the richest person's sin which is as bad as the poorest person's sin.  And it is that sin that separates us from Him.  The loving part comes into play when he paid the price of His Son for our sins, condemning Him that lead a perfect life and imputing His perfect life onto us.

So David sinned when God told him to take the census? Or is it only a Sin in the book that attributes the exact same census to Satan.  This isn't both God and Satan doing the same thing.  This is one event that is paradoxically attributed to both God and Satan within the bible.  It just goes to show: the primitive who wrote the bible couldn't tell the difference between an angry God, and a Happy Satan.  With God's like these, who needs Beelzebub?

And God is fair because he acknowledges all humans as equally tainted and deserving of eternal torture.  Oh the skydaddy is so nice isn't he?  Here's what I don't get: Why did God need to sacrifice his Son (who's apparently also himself)?  It seems to me that if the man who can do anything wanted to forgive us, he could have just forgiven us.  I mean, think about what would have been going through his mind?

Those evil humans down on earth. I hate what they are doing. All this sin...

Since I am all-knowing I know exactly what the humans are doing and I understand exactly why they commit each sin. Since I created the humans in my own image and personally programmed human nature into their brains, I am the direct author of all of this sin. The instant I created them I knew exactly what would happen with every single human being right down to the nanosecond level for all eternity. If I didn't like how it was going to turn out, I could have simply changed them when I created them. And since I am perfect, I know exactly what I am doing. But ignore all that. I hate all these people doing exactly what I perfectly designed them to do and knew they would do from the moment I created them...

So here's what I am going to do. I will artificially inseminate a virgin. She will give birth to an incarnated version of me. The humans will eventually crucify and kill the incarnated me. That will, finally, make me happy. Yes, sending mself down and having the humans crucify me -- that will satisfy me. I feel much better now.

At the base of this all you're making the argument that God is perfect. And even though he does things that disgust us and contradict everything we know about morality, he's still absolutely perfect, and we're not in a position to judge him. This is most likely because he's bigger and us and has the power of flight.  Or is it because we owe him for creating us?

Here are the fundamental Problems with Creation:

What was God doing before he created us? Because if God were perfect, it would seem to imply that he was complete. And a complete being doesn't need to create anything more.  It doesn't feel a desire to do anything.  We humans only do things because of motivations we feel due to a gap between what we have, and what we want.  A perfect being is complete, and therefore does not have this gap, and therefore has no motivation to create anything.

Also, is it not obvious that God planned out Eve's original sin? He designed her psychology down to the last detail, he could have predicted what she would do in any possible situation. He crated the Apple. He created the talking Snake.  God created the Original Sin.  We must conclude that either God wanted Eve to fail and doom humanity to eternal torture, OR that he is not Omnipotent or Benevolent.

They say God had to give us free will, because we could not be happy without free will, and so Eve's failure was all her own.  Here's the thing: God created the nature of happiness. So couldn't he have just as easily created his precious humans in such a way that they could only be happy if they had NO free will. Or if they had free will, but their souls were pure (or however that works) so they only ever made good decisions.

God had options, and he ultimately chose to create a world with suffering. There is absolutely no way around this conclusion.  It makes no sense. Not one single word of it.  God is a paradox that continuously contradicts his own existence.  Saying he's Benevolent, Omnipotent, and he Created the Universe: You may as well be saying 'God is a Square Circle!' It's unadulterated nonsense!

[Gawen]

I asked Christians 'burning' questions many times. Most times I get no reply. Other times I get apologetics so idiotically thought out, it's a wonder anyone believes such nonesense. Many of you know I am a big fan of reason, rationality and critical thinking. Christians can reason and rationalize their belief system to suit their needs. But they cannot think critically to reason or rationalize their thoughts of their belief system, otherwise, they would come to a much different conclusion. So, it's sometimes quite difficult to carry on a conversation concerning a 'burning question' with Christians.

The best questions are controversial or contradictive. Of course, a good Christian will say there is nothing contradictive or controversial in the Manual. You simply show them otherwise and be prepared for apologetics and "That's not in context" stuff. Just make sure you're able to back yourself up with pertinent biblical verses.

[NothingSacred]

I really wanted to know if she would stone her disobedient child as deuteronomy says. I also wanted to know if she could sacrifice her child like Jephthah does injudges 11:29-40. Could you and how can you arrive at the conclusion that a god who demands such things is good and loves you? I HONESTLY want to know!

First of all, the passage you are referencing:

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

The context of this verse is smack dab in the middle of civil laws that were meant for the nation of Israel at that time in history.  Secondly, this punishment was reserved for the long term pattern of rebellion and sin of a child who was incorrigibly disobedient.  So no, it is not OK to stone your child to death.

As for Jephthah, what he did was clearly against God's law:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. Deuteronomy 18:10

Jephthah sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering.  Remember, just because something is recorded in the Bible doesn't mean that God condones it.


Denny

Its ok to stone them to death if they were continually disobedient then? For an omnipotent god who never changes his mind and knows right from wrong contex isn't enough to justify wrong doing.That civil law is not civil at all and yet your god approves of it.

Jephthah...

Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon. When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break." "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry." "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin. From this comes the Israelite custom that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.


Why would the spirit of the lord be mentioned as being upon him if it were something god didnt approve of and why would god grant him victory? being that he is omnipotent he would know his daughter would be the first out of his house and he would be bound by his word to kill her!

[zerofivetwoseven]

The Lord did command annhilation of many of the peoples who inhabited the promised land.  Totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts, which did later occur due to the Israelites not obeying the command.  These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).  


Denny

But God DOES punish the innocent Denny.

Exodus 20 - I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, PUNISHING THE CHILDREN for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.

[KebertX]

The Lord did command annhilation of many of the peoples who inhabited the promised land.  Totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts, which did later occur due to the Israelites not obeying the command.  These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).  


Denny

So God (Who knows the future) decided to annihilate an entire race of people because he did not approve of their behavior.  Just so he could let the Israelites do the same thing?  That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, THE BIBLE IS NOT TRUE!

The stories in there, I think, were intended to be fables, not historical documents.  You can learn a lesson about responsibility from the story of Jonah in the Whale without thinking there was actually a guy who lived in a big fish for 3 days!  Just like you can learn lessons of Friendship watching Pixar Movies without actually thinking toys can talk!