Asking theists the burning questions

[KebertX]

The Lord did command annhilation of many of the peoples who inhabited the promised land.  Totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts, which did later occur due to the Israelites not obeying the command.  These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).  While God is long suffering, eventually, time does run out, as it did for those particular groups of people.


Denny

Just think about what you're saying. It's okay that God killed over 2.5 MILLION people (Plus uncounted billions in plagues and global floods) because we all deserve judgment.  In my Opinion, Original Sin is the single most perverted and evil religious belief in history.  There is an obsession with making sure that humans are evil. It's just spiritually masochistic. "We all deserve Judgment" Is such an awful thing to believe: Humans are all naturally evil and can only be saved by refraining from specific ThoughtCrimes known as Blasphemy.

We deserve judgment, because a bone-woman was tricked in a magical garden by a talking snake into eating a black-magic apple 6000 years ago.  God knew she would eat the apple, he designed her psychology down to the last detail.  He could have predicted anything she would ever do in any situation.  God created her failure, God put the talking snake and the apple there, it follows that if any of this is true (it's not) God either wanted her to fail, or God is simply bad at designing good people.  God is either not Benevolent, or not Omnipotent.  But he makes sure we believe he believe he is both. God is a bigot.

You see how easy that falls apart. It's like it's already a Straw Man!  This is because this is not the perfect word of God, and this is not reality. These are ancient myths that people came up with thousands of years before we knew anything about Logic or Science.



We do not deserve to be judged based on our beliefs. We do not need a giant invisible thought police in the sky to decide our eternal fate based solely on whether or not we fell in love with his son.  Original sin implies that every single person who died before Jesus was crucified went to hell.  Every person who was born in a location not colonized by Christianity who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell.  Gandhi, just about the most altruistic person I can think of, went to hell.

Were they all evil people? They were not, but God still thinks it's okay to torture good people for all of eternity. It's wrong, and I don't care how much bigger than me God is, he needs to answer to some form of morality, and stop being such a malevolent control freak.

[Heretical Rants]

These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).

That. That right there. The idea that all of humanity is tainted, unworthy, in need of salvation, ---I hate that.

[Tank]

Denny

If one met, on average, one new person per day for all of ones life till one was 30 one would know 11,000 'ish people. I don't think I knew, properly, 11,000 people by the time I was 30. In fact would say the number of people I know well now at 50 would be maybe a couple of hundred. So for arguments sake lets say one gets to know 500 people in ones life time. What is 500 as a percentage of 7,000,000,000 the approximate population of the earth? It's 0.000,007%. To all intents and purposes you have met next to nobody at all, yet you hold a world view that says they are all sinners and should be judged. Why do you hold that view?

[pinkocommie]

These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).

That. That right there. The idea that all of humanity is tainted, unworthy, in need of salvation, ---I hate that.

I hate it not only because it's a depressingly bleak and pessimistic outlook regarding humanity, but also because I think it's untrue.

[hismikeness]

These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).

That. That right there. The idea that all of humanity is tainted, unworthy, in need of salvation, ---I hate that.

I hate it not only because it's a depressingly bleak and pessimistic outlook regarding humanity, but also because I think it's untrue.

It's really good marketing though. Make the customer feel like they need your product... and make god damn sure they can pay!!  

[GAYtheist]

My biggest problems with Christianity are as follows.

The bible is misogynistic in nature, blaming women for all the evils in the world.
<Eve and the apple, for example.>

The countless, horrible ways that women could be forced to marry, for reasons I will not list again, I will not search the bible for the verses, but for an example a man could ransack a village, kidnap a little girl, rape her and force her hand in marriage.

The concept of the sanctity of marriage holding only to heterosexual couples. Stop that shit.

The scientifically impossible, and seemingly magical, occurrences in the bible. The ark, walking on water and the like.

The seeming inability to accept that Homophobic, racist pricks enjoy to cherry pick what they want from the bible, and when called on it, to accept the unwillingness to see whats at their noses.

To me, all religion is a mistake, Christianity is the biggest of them.

[Tank]

I don't like being told what I think, I don't like words being put in my mouth, I'm sure I am not alone in this feeling. So why not ask Denny what he thinks and then comment on what he says?  

[KebertX]

These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).

That. That right there. The idea that all of humanity is tainted, unworthy, in need of salvation, ---I hate that.

I hate it not only because it's a depressingly bleak and pessimistic outlook regarding humanity, but also because I think it's untrue.

No. You don't actually think it's untrue.  You know it's untrue. Anyone who thinks critically about it for ten minutes does.

[Martin TK]

Christianity is so diverse that you can state pretty much any fact about one group and immediately find a counter-example. So, yeah...

Your statement addresses a HUGE issue within religion.  Here we have group A which follows the bible, and group B who claims to follow the same bible and the same god; however, within each group there are obvious differences.  WHY?  If there is ONE true god, wouldn't you think that he would have set up the rules so that everyone would follow the same plan?  I mean the guy is a deity, he should have known that the whole bible thing, sending his son, the Catholic Church, would have been a massive failure to get HIS humans to do his bidding.  Now, I get the whole cop out of free will and all, but you'd think he'd have come up with a better plan.  I mean he is afterall, GOD, isn't he?

Note:  I'm not saying this for or against you personally, just that your response triggered my Rant.  Thanks.

[Martin TK]

These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).

That. That right there. The idea that all of humanity is tainted, unworthy, in need of salvation, ---I hate that.

I'm with you there, but then Christianity is built on the whole Original Sin concept.  Without it, Jesus has NO real meaning, and his death was for nothing.  I find the whole born into sin thing to be rather moronic, myself.  I remember as a child that crap really messing with my head, then I started asking some really tough questions, got into a lot of hot water with the parents and the ministers, but I kept on asking.  Got to the point that one of my church's pastors stopped visiting our house because I grilled him so much, another minister we had LOVED me, and was very understanding when I had questions.  The funny thing is that his kindness, along with the kindness of several professors in college, who thought they were helping me find my way within Christianity, actually gave me the materials I needed to understand just how off base religion is.

[NothingSacred]

What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?

Were you honestly seeking an answer to your question?  Or were you merely trying to make a Christian stumble?  I do believe that Christians do need to be challenged to continually stay in the Word and be able to 'Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have'.

BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

Thank you!

Denny

I really wanted to know if she would stone her disobedient child as deuteronomy says. I also wanted to know if she could sacrifice her child like Jephthah does injudges 11:29-40. Could you and how can you arrive at the conclusion that a god who demands such things is good and loves you? I HONESTLY want to know!

[KebertX]

Were you honestly seeking an answer to your question?  Or were you merely trying to make a Christian stumble?  I do believe that Christians do need to be challenged to continually stay in the Word and be able to 'Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have'.

BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

Thank you!

Denny

I've heard that defense a lot, "You don't really want to learn anything, You atheists only ask questions about my religion because you are evil trolls with nothing better to do than laugh at my insufficient arguments!"   Don't you think that's a bit... weak? To acknowledge that the general theist argument is humorously illogical, then say you refuse to defend your point because you don't want the atheist to laugh at you when they make you stumble. I think that's a bit ridiculous.

I mean C'mon, I can't speak for the whole forum, but I'm insulted when I hear that. I am an atheist because I always always look for answers. As of right now, (and my entire life past the age of 9) the answer 'God did it' was not sufficient for me.  I still want to learn though.  And I still want to fully understand the God Complex that religious people hold to.  So if I do ask a theist a burning question, can it be considered fair for me to not be accused of trolling?


BTW, Denny, you actually seem fairly reasonable, so I'm not directing this at you. I was merely fixating on that question, and I felt this needed to be said.

[Double D]

I really wanted to know if she would stone her disobedient child as deuteronomy says. I also wanted to know if she could sacrifice her child like Jephthah does injudges 11:29-40. Could you and how can you arrive at the conclusion that a god who demands such things is good and loves you? I HONESTLY want to know!

First of all, the passage you are referencing:

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

The context of this verse is smack dab in the middle of civil laws that were meant for the nation of Israel at that time in history.  Secondly, this punishment was reserved for the long term pattern of rebellion and sin of a child who was incorrigibly disobedient.  So no, it is not OK to stone your child to death.

As for Jephthah, what he did was clearly against God's law:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. Deuteronomy 18:10

Jephthah sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering.  Remember, just because something is recorded in the Bible doesn't mean that God condones it.


Denny

[KebertX]

First of all, the passage you are referencing:

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

The context of this verse is smack dab in the middle of civil laws that were meant for the nation of Israel at that time in history. Secondly, this punishment was reserved for the long term pattern of rebellion and sin of a child who was incorrigibly disobedient. So no, it is not OK to stone your child to death.

As for Jephthah, what he did was clearly against God's law:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. Deuteronomy 18:10

Jephthah sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering. Remember, just because something is recorded in the Bible doesn't mean that God condones it.


Denny

All you've proved here is that the Bible contradicts itself.  I want you to pick up your bible and read 2 Samuel 24:1.

Once again the Israelites felt the LORD's anger, when he incited David against them and instructed him to take a census of Israel and Judah.

Then go forward a few pages and read 1 Chronicles 21:1.

Now SATAN, setting himself against Israel, incited David to make a census of the people.

BIBLE FAIL!

As for whether or not the Bible condones violence, it does. And it's not isolated incidents, it is in just about every single book, about 1200 violent acts in all.

Don't believe me? http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html It's all in there.  Why does your loving God do these things?

[pinkocommie]

I hate it not only because it's a depressingly bleak and pessimistic outlook regarding humanity, but also because I think it's untrue.

No. You don't actually think it's untrue.  You know it's untrue. Anyone who thinks critically about it for ten minutes does.

Don't correct me when I'm stating my opinion, please.  No one likes to be told what they think or know, even if you are agreeing with my essential point.